Crystal 60 in hoppy beers

[Pehlman17]

I seem to keep seeing things written about crystal 60 lately saying that it tends to promote oxidation character in hoppy beers more so than other malts. My question is then, how is it that Sierra Nevada’s beers like Pale and Torpedo still taste so damn good even at 3+ months old? I even had some of last year’s Celebration ale recently and it was still very good. C60 seems to be the backbone of each of these beers, but in my opinion these beers hold up way better than just about any others out there. Especially a lot of these modern uber dry-hopped pils malt based IPAs. I understand SN still does some bottle conditioning so I’m sure that’s part of the story. But otherwise, I don’t know how they seem to defy everything people say nowadays about C60 with hops. -

 

[kingmatt]

Sierra Nevada has the benefit of being a professional brewery with state of the art technology and decades of experience in minimizing oxidation with their beers.

Nobody says you can't make a good hoppy beer with 60L but you have to really know what you are doing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Pehlman17 : what have you been reading - beyond forum posts where people repeat what others have said in forum posts?

eta: IIRC, in some of the discussion I've scanned, there is a reference to a pro brewer. I'm curious about this topic and willing to read (or listen to) those original sources.

 

[MaxStout]

I'm calling shenanigans on this. I'd like to see the science behind this assertion that C60 is more prone to promoting oxidation character.

 

[Pehlman17]

I suppose it has mostly been anecdotal yet from published sources. A Craft Beer and Brewing article as well as one of their podcasts with a pro brewer. I think I’ve heard the same on a Brewing Network podcast once or twice. I assume it’s just one of those things now that people say as fact. That’s what got me wondering how one of the highest quality breweries could use this ingredient with such success while so many other seems to be avoiding it like the plague.

 

[day_trippr]

When 75% of my brews were New England IPAs my crystal/caramel malt usage plummeted to near zero.
I only use them now for classic English styles (warmers, pales, porters/stouts, etc).
I do believe they tend to detract "fresh" character...or at least confuse the appreciation of such...

Cheers!

 

[Pehlman17]

When 75% of my brews were New England IPAs my crystal/caramel malt usage plummeted to near zero.
I only use them now for classic English styles (warmers, pales, porters/stouts, etc).
I do believe they tend to detract "fresh" character...or at least confuse the appreciation of such...

Cheers!

I think you may be onto something there. I wonder if we taste the flavors that come with those mid-to-high-level crystal malts and just associate them with things we also associate with oxidation. Sherry, caramel, dark fruits, etc. I think when handled correctly I also get a lot of grainy fresh-baked bread quality from these malts that, at least to me, plays out as fresh tasting.

 

[MaxStout]

I can believe that crystal malts, especially when overused, can muddle the flavor. I don't believe that has anything to do with C60 directly promoting oxidation. Perhaps in a few cases it just mimics some undesirable flavors and the brewers made a leap of faith.

A more likely explanation behind these anecdotes floating around the internet might be a few brewers using old, stale malt.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A Craft Beer and Brewing article as well as one of their podcasts with a pro brewer. I think I’ve heard the same on a Brewing Network podcast once or twice.

Thanks. I'll do some web searches this evening and see what I can find.

 

[hout17]

Here's the basic brewing radio episode where Mitch Steele talks about this it's the Dec. 13, 2012 episode. He doesn't mention oxidation but that it takes away from the hops.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

As I was gathering links for the initial review / read, I came across this: (Internet Archives capture for SNPA [Aug 13, 2006 - link]):

Lots of delightful adjectives in the description.

 

[OleBrewing]

If you ask me c60 or at a minimum 40 is a must in American pale ales. It balances everything out. These light bitter versions are only there to exploit the hop only. A true pale ale IMO brings the malt and hop together in harmony just like cooking. I wouldn't want a dish with so much cilantro it makes it one bitter mess.

 

[Pehlman17]

If you ask me c60 or at a minimum 40 is a must in American pale ales. It balances everything out. These light bitter versions are only there to exploit the hop only. A true pale ale IMO brings the malt and hop together in harmony just like cooking. I wouldn't want a dish with so much cilantro it makes it one bitter mess.

I couldn’t agree more. I like to look at beers the same way as I would a dish I was cooking. A little salt, some acidity, or an herbal garnish can do wonders to really make a meal pop. But any of those things used in excess could totally ruin the dish. However, without them at all, the dish would be bland and boring. I worry we are in a phase where we think all beers are better off with no crystal malts just because they may have been overdone in the past. Too much or none at all can both be bad. There’s got to be a Goldilocks zone I assume.

 

[Pehlman17]

Here's the basic brewing radio episode where Mitch Steele talks about this it's the Dec. 13, 2012 episode. He doesn't mention oxidation but that it takes away from the hops.

I definitely get what Mitch is talking about, particularly when it comes to DIPA. Once you get into the 9%+ ABV range Crystal malts can really create a divergence between Barleywine and DIPA. Plus the alcohol gives so much body and character in and of itself that I can see that you might not need/want crystal malts in that case.

As a west coast guy, I definitely get it. I remember the old days (before hazy) when east coast IPA was something I thought was still holding on too tightly to the English roots. Too much malt and “sweetness” is what I thought at the time. But now I’m concerned the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. IPAs now seem so delicate and fragile relative to where they once were. Of course the IBU wars were ridiculous, but that doesn’t mean bitterness itself was bad. Same with Crystal malts. Sure they may have been overused, but that doesn’t mean taking them down to zero is the solution. It might actually just cause other issues.

 

[Bobby_M]

If you ask me c60 or at a minimum 40 is a must in American pale ales. It balances everything out. These light bitter versions are only there to exploit the hop only. A true pale ale IMO brings the malt and hop together in harmony just like cooking. I wouldn't want a dish with so much cilantro it makes it one bitter mess.

There are many other ways of bringing malt complexity to a pale ale that does not involve crystal malts including Vienna, Munich, Victory/Biscuit and blending American and British pale malts. You can control the body via mash temp to make your own dextrines. I'm partial to a good portion of Vienna because it adds a candy like character without being overly sweet and that plays quite well with hops. I've actually done a SMASH pale ale with 100% Vienna and Mosaic hops and that was one of my best pale ales.

 

[Pehlman17]

There are many other ways of bringing malt complexity to a pale ale that does not involve crystal malts including Vienna, Munich, Victory/Biscuit and blending American and British pale malts. You can control the body via mash temp to make your own dextrines. I'm partial to a good portion of Vienna because it adds a candy like character without being overly sweet and that plays quite well with hops. I've actually done a SMASH pale ale with 100% Vienna and Mosaic hops and that was one of my best pale ales.

I had a SMASH pale not too long ago of Vienna and Centennial, and it was glorious.

 

[Pehlman17]

For what it’s worth I’m not trying to make the case that Crystal malts are essential to good beer. I’m just wondering if maybe they aren’t quite the boogeyman they’ve become lately.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Bobby_M makes a number of good comments on different ways design ale ales in the ealy 2020s. Hopefully that 'sub-topic' will continue.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This was captured in the Internet Archives in Dec 2007.

Everyone tastes beer differently. With experienced (and opinionated) home brewers, those test preferences will up in recipe design, equipment, and process. Compare this list to ideas in Brewing Better Beer and Modern Homebrew Recipes.

edit: replaced image with a cleaner copy.

 

[jrgtr42]

I definitely get what Mitch is talking about, particularly when it comes to DIPA. Once you get into the 9%+ ABV range Crystal malts can really create a divergence between Barleywine and DIPA. Plus the alcohol gives so much body and character in and of itself that I can see that you might not need/want crystal malts in that case.

But keep in mind that many barleywines are just pale malt, no crystal / caramel at all. It’s just boiled for a couple hours to concentrate the flavors and promote Maillard reactions. Many barleywines fresh are almost indistinguishable from a dipa/ tips.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I haven't listed to the Mitch Steele podcasts, but I did revisit his IPA book. There is discussion about the use (and misuse) of specialty malts (munich, crystal, black, ...) in IPAs and other hoppy beers. Bring the hop flavors to the forefront. Yeast flavors, if any, complement the hops. Malt flavors, if any, complement the hops.

With regard to the slowing changing definition of "hoppy beers", "IPA", (etc), Michael Tonsmeire wrote an interesting article: "The Evolution of IPA) in the May-June 2020 of BYO Magazine (link).

Historical IPA, Classic IPA, east coast IPA, west coast IPA, New England IPAs, milk-shake IPA. attach a timeframe (1980s, late 1990s, late 2010s, ...), ...

eta: hoppy beers: different time periods, different places, different taste preferences, different results.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

SNPA: clone recipe, from AHA's Big Brew Day 2000 (link). It's similar, yet different, from other "clone" recipes from the 1980s (Microbrewed Adventures), BYO Magazine (2008-ish?), SNPA's web site, ...

Nearly Nirvana Pale Ale ​

​

Official Recipe of Big Brew 2000 ​

[...]​

​

All-Grain Recipe for 5 gallons:​

6.5 gallons water (2.5 mash, 4 sparge)​

1 T Gypsum (unless using hard water)​

9 lb U.S. two row malt​

1/2 lb U.S. crystal malt 60 L​

1/2 lb U.S. dextrin malt​

1 oz Perle hops (bittering)​

1oz Cascade hops (flavor)​

1/2 t Irish moss​

1/2 oz Cascade hops (aroma)​

1oz Cascade hops (dry hop)​

Wyeast 1056 liquid ale yeast​

Extract with Grain Recipe for 5 gallons:​

[... follow the link if interested ...]​

90% base malt, 5% dextrin, 5% Crystal 60.

 

[BeerAndTele]

I suppose it has mostly been anecdotal yet from published sources. A Craft Beer and Brewing article as well as one of their podcasts with a pro brewer. I think I’ve heard the same on a Brewing Network podcast once or twice.

I also heard mention of it in an interview with Vinny Cilurzo from Russian River. I started a thread about it in the Brew Science forum recently; if you’re interested in the Cilurzo interview, there‘s a link to it in the linked thread below. I think I saw the same Craft Beer and Brewing article you referenced, as well. Not a lot of details to be found, it seems.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/crystal-malt-and-oxidation.699464/

 

[Alan Reginato]

I used to brew with crystal malt in my earlier brews. They probably tasted like a strong bitter and I tried the full range of malt colours.

And I found out that I don't like the sweetness that they leave behind. Also, to me, they mute hops and yeasts flavours.

Just kilned and roasted for my now. Eventually I could use it again, but in lower proportions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I seem to keep seeing things written about crystal 60 lately saying that it tends to promote oxidation character in hoppy beers more so than other malts.

Urban Dictionary offers one definition of shenanigans: 'feisty fun with jokes & rowdy behavior.' Using this definition, I stand with @MaxStout, and call shenanigans.

I leave open the possibility that some one, some where, actually referenced the science that supports the often repeated claim.

My question is then, how is it that Sierra Nevada’s beers like Pale and Torpedo still taste so damn good even at 3+ months old? I even had some of last year’s Celebration ale recently and it was still very good. C60 seems to be the backbone of each of these beers, but in my opinion these beers hold up way better than just about any others out there.

A starting point for some ideas on the science can be found in the book, The New IPA. There is some information on crystal malts, including some references to scientific papers. The crystal malt discussion in The New IPA appears to be in the context of low usage (5% or less) of crystal malts. Early in the book (p 22) there's a parenthetical: "... mash hopping (which chapter 14 suggests may help improve beer stability)...".

For valid claims that C60 promotes oxidation, there may be techniques that mitigate the impact. Or maybe not.

A true pale ale IMO brings the malt and hop together in harmony just like cooking.

+1!

 

[MaxStout]

I had a SMASH pale not too long ago of Vienna and Centennial, and it was glorious.

This.

Vienna and Maris are my two favorite malt choices for making SMaSH beers. Did a Vienna/Liberty a few years back that turned out great. Will have to brew that one again.

 

[jjmak]

There are many other ways of bringing malt complexity to a pale ale that does not involve crystal malts including Vienna, Munich, Victory/Biscuit and blending American and British pale malts. You can control the body via mash temp to make your own dextrines. I'm partial to a good portion of Vienna because it adds a candy like character without being overly sweet and that plays quite well with hops. I've actually done a SMASH pale ale with 100% Vienna and Mosaic hops and that was one of my best pale ales.

Your SMASH sounds tasty. What yeast did you use?

 

[Pehlman17]

Urban Dictionary offers one definition of shenanigans: 'feisty fun with jokes & rowdy behavior.' Using this definition, I stand with @MaxStout, and call shenanigans.

I leave open the possibility that some one, some where, actually referenced the science that supports the often repeated claim.



A starting point for some ideas on the science can be found in the book, The New IPA. There is some information on crystal malts, including some references to scientific papers. The crystal malt discussion in The New IPA appears to be in the context of low usage (5% or less) of crystal malts. Early in the book (p 22) there's a parenthetical: "... mash hopping (which chapter 14 suggests may help improve beer stability)...".

For valid claims that C60 promotes oxidation, there may be techniques that mitigate the impact. Or maybe not.


+1!

After thinking about it some more, I’m wondering if the problems many see with C60 could be a product the way the beer was hopped. Perhaps maintaining a heavier hot-side hop load, as I’m sure these more classic Pales/IPAs did, created some more long-term stability. Nowadays with hopping being so cold-side heavy I can see how the flavor of Crystal malts could just exacerbate any oxidation issues. As far as them actually promoting oxidized flavors, I’m unsure but definitely curious.

 

[bwible]

I'm calling shenanigans on this. I'd like to see the science behind this assertion that C60 is more prone to promoting oxidation character.

Yeah how is Crystal 60 any different than Crystal 40 or Crystal 80 or Crystal 120 and if 60 was super oxidative somehow due to the process of making it then why wouldn’t 40 or 80, one direction or the other, be worse?

I’ve taken to blending cyrstal malts of different colors, like 40 and 60 or 20 and 60, or 80 and 20. The reason to do this is I can get more crystal malt percentage of the grist for the same or less color value. 1/2 pound of 60 with 1/2 pound of 20 for example gives an average color for the pound of 40, but its different from using a pound of 40 because you get a blend of the lighter and darker crystal flavors.

 

[Pehlman17]

Yeah how is Crystal 60 any different than Crystal 40 or Crystal 80 or Crystal 120 and if 60 was super oxidative somehow due to the process of making it then why wouldn’t 40 or 80, one direction or the other, be worse?

I’ve taken to blending cyrstal malts of different colors, like 40 and 60 or 20 and 60, or 80 and 20. The reason to do this is I can get more crystal malt percentage of the grist for the same or less color value. 1/2 pound of 60 with 1/2 pound of 20 for example gives an average color for the pound of 40, but its different from using a pound of 40 because you get a blend of the lighter and darker crystal flavors.

Same here. My LHBS always has C-15 and C-75 on hand. I’ve found these balance each other well and there’s a lot of different ratios to try out depending on what color I’m shooting for. I typically keep my total crystal malt load at 5% of the total grist. I’ve tried pulling them out completely and replacing them with things like Munich and/or Victory (like many recommend), but I always end up feeling like something is missing or the flavor just isn’t what I wanted.