cryo hops/lupulin powder dry hopping question

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i always do my second dry hop in the keg. I have the clear beer draught system for all my kegs and it is a float that draws the beer off the top, no more dreaded dip tube which caused me lots of problems in general.
 
stickyfinger said:
cryohops are not debittered to my knowledge
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From their presser...

"Developed by Yakima Chief – Hopunion, Cryo Hops® represents the most innovative technology in hop processing. It uses a proprietary cryogenic separation process which preserves all components of each hop fraction, producing two simultaneous co-products, LupuLN2® and Debittered Leaf.

LupuLN2 is the concentrated lupulin of whole-leaf hops containing resins and aromatic oils. It is designed to provide intense hop flavor and aroma, enabling brewers to dose large quantities of hops without introducing astringent flavors or vegetative cone material. During early R & D trials, brewers specifically cited ‘juicy’ and ‘resinous’ characteristics. LupuLN2 offers twice the resin content of traditional whole-leaf and hop pellet products, and should be dosed at approximately half the amount by weight.
Debittered Leaf is the concentrated bract of whole-leaf hops which has been separated from the lupulin glands. It is a high-quality, low-alpha product which retains variety-specific aroma and flavor characteristics and can be derived from any hop brand. The result is an enticing Northwest twist on traditional low-alpha, noble hops.

Product availability includes Cascade, Citra® Brand HBC 394, Columbus (LupuLN2 only), Ekuanot™ Brand HBC 366, Loral™ Brand HBC 291, Mosaic® Brand HBC 369, Palisade® Brand YCR 4, and Simcoe® Brand YCR 14 hops. LupuLN2 is available in hop powder or pellet form; debittered leaf is available as pellets.

Cryo Hops products are currently available to commercial brewers via YCH HOPS and its distributor partners. Home brew packaging will be released in July 2017."

https://ychhops.com/hop-products/cryo-hops
 
The way I read this ^^^^ is to separate and reformulate with oil, resin, and debittered cone. Debittered doesn't mean no bitterness. The vegetable astringency is removed. The AAU is raised with the processing.
 
Schlenkerla said:
The twist is to do that and then whirlpool with cryo. 200F down to 140F. Amp the hop flavor aroma without adding bitterness.

.
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just stop with the misinformation already. isomerization occurs at temps 170* and up. for a product that can easily have 20+ percent AA, you can EASILY make a very bitter beer by adding these at higher temps... like i tried to tell you earlier... I would suspect that since this is a powder it would dissolve easier than pellets & even easier than flower. Logically, you can assume this would isomerize even faster for a higher overall utilization of AA.

lets also consider that mycerene and like compounds have low volatilization points. many astute brewers on this site have started chilling wort to 160* prior to whirlpool additions. i would make sure this technique at a minimum is applied when using this product
 
The straight powder form is incredibly hard to get into solution when dry hopping. If you don't like bagging you need to find some alternate ways to get it into the beer. The pelletized form of the powder was created for that reason, much easier to use cold side.
 
couchsending said:
The straight powder form is incredibly hard to get into solution when dry hopping. If you don't like bagging you need to find some alternate ways to get it into the beer. The pelletized form of the powder was created for that reason, much easier to use cold side.
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does one need to "get it into solution". are people expecting this stuff to completely dissolve.

it simply the oils mechanically separated from the flower. why would it be any harder for it have the same effect as say pellets or or flower when dry hopping? logically one would think physically 1 step ahead of the former. by all reports up to this point, nobody has had trouble achieving good results from dry hopping with it; hence the 2:1 rule which is currently floating around
 
jammin said:
does one need to "get it into solution". are people expecting this stuff to completely dissolve.

it simply the oils mechanically separated from the flower. why would it be any harder for it have the same effect as say pellets or or flower when dry hopping? logically one would think physically 1 step ahead of the former. by all reports up to this point, nobody has had trouble achieving good results from dry hopping with it; hence the 2:1 rule which is currently floating around
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Dude I NEVER said NOT to dry hop. Said to do both.
 
jammin said:
just stop with the misinformation already. isomerization occurs at temps 170* and up. for a product that can easily have 20+ percent AA, you can EASILY make a very bitter beer by adding these at higher temps... like i tried to tell you earlier... I would suspect that since this is a powder it would dissolve easier than pellets & even easier than flower. Logically, you can assume this would isomerize even faster for a higher overall utilization of AA.

lets also consider that mycerene and like compounds have low volatilization points. many astute brewers on this site have started chilling wort to 160* prior to whirlpool additions. i would make sure this technique at a minimum is applied when using this product
Click to expand...

No miss info....

This is like a powder but it doesn't want to blend. It sits on the surface... So how do you get it to saturate in a fermented wort?

The ability to saturate well is not that good due to solubility. It's still particulate matter but ground to smaller particles. Less mass so they float easier.

Like I said do both dry hop and whirlpool.

It's NOT only one way, read the YCH website.
 
jammin said:
saying that this extremely high AA product does not add to bitterness @ 200* is misinformation.
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Note, it's debittered and dropping in temp.

If you're not chilling then you you need to consider that fact. Even though heat is off.

jammin said:
saying that this extremely high AA product does not add to bitterness @ 200* is misinformation.
Click to expand...

Please, take no offense.

Extraction is very low at that time and temp. It's almost all flavor and aroma. Assuming you are adding an oz at a time.

If you're adding more than an oz per 5 gallons you're exceeding the recommendation. 1/2lb per bbl

5 IBUs is nothing most people can't detect that delta.
 
jammin said:
does one need to "get it into solution". are people expecting this stuff to completely dissolve.

it simply the oils mechanically separated from the flower. why would it be any harder for it have the same effect as say pellets or or flower when dry hopping? logically one would think physically 1 step ahead of the former. by all reports up to this point, nobody has had trouble achieving good results from dry hopping with it; hence the 2:1 rule which is currently floating around
Click to expand...
If you use the powder it will literally sit on top of the beer if added like normal DH additions... there is tons of info about this out there from all the pros that started using it more than a year ago. Had a great conversation with the brewer who used it last fall in his gold medal beer at GABF. They had to add it to a corny, draw beer off the FV, create a slurry in the corny by agitating it and inject it back into the FV. I believe this is what most pros were doing with it before YCH created the pelletized form of the powder. I assume that the pellets will dissolve and suspend in the beer. I've only used the powder form and it's a pain unless you like to bag your DH additions. Pelletized form should be easier.
 
Schlenkerla said:
Note, it's debittered and dropping in temp.

If you're not chilling then you you need to consider that fact. Even though heat is off.



Please, take no offense.

Extraction is very low at that time and temp. It's almost all flavor and aroma. Assuming you are adding an oz at a time.

If you're adding more than an oz per 5 gallons you're exceeding the recommendation. 1/2lb per bbl

5 IBUs is nothing most people can't detect that delta.
Click to expand...

What is debittered? There are two different products you are referencing, debittered leaf and cryo hops. Cryo has tons of AA so it'll add plenty of bitterness but yeah below 200 I doubt it's that noticeable.

I still don't get the super low whirlpool temps. Your favorite super juicy commercial beers aren't made this way as I'm pretty sure it's impossible on a commercial scale. Clearly they're doing it a different way. I would think just adding that late whirlpool addition to the FV at the start of fermentation would give you even more of that oil content for yeast to interact with.
 
Schlenkerla said:
From their presser...

"Developed by Yakima Chief – Hopunion, Cryo Hops[emoji768] represents the most innovative technology in hop processing. It uses a proprietary cryogenic separation process which preserves all components of each hop fraction, producing two simultaneous co-products, LupuLN2[emoji768] and Debittered Leaf.

LupuLN2 is the concentrated lupulin of whole-leaf hops containing resins and aromatic oils. It is designed to provide intense hop flavor and aroma, enabling brewers to dose large quantities of hops without introducing astringent flavors or vegetative cone material. During early R & D trials, brewers specifically cited ‘juicy’ and ‘resinous’ characteristics. LupuLN2 offers twice the resin content of traditional whole-leaf and hop pellet products, and should be dosed at approximately half the amount by weight.
Debittered Leaf is the concentrated bract of whole-leaf hops which has been separated from the lupulin glands. It is a high-quality, low-alpha product which retains variety-specific aroma and flavor characteristics and can be derived from any hop brand. The result is an enticing Northwest twist on traditional low-alpha, noble hops.

Product availability includes Cascade, Citra[emoji768] Brand HBC 394, Columbus (LupuLN2 only), Ekuanot[emoji769] Brand HBC 366, Loral[emoji769] Brand HBC 291, Mosaic[emoji768] Brand HBC 369, Palisade[emoji768] Brand YCR 4, and Simcoe[emoji768] Brand YCR 14 hops. LupuLN2 is available in hop powder or pellet form; debittered leaf is available as pellets.

Cryo Hops products are currently available to commercial brewers via YCH HOPS and its distributor partners. Home brew packaging will be released in July 2017."

https://ychhops.com/hop-products/cryo-hops
Click to expand...


the debittered part is the crap left over that no one here is buying and using in hoppy beers, no?
 
stickyfinger said:
the debittered part is the crap left over that no one here is buying and using in hoppy beers, no?
Click to expand...

I see it as one product "Cryo" where they combined lupulN2 and debittered leaf.

Edit, I think you're right. I went to post #18. It's two products. They don't really advertise or show the debittered packaging.
 
Schlenkerla said:
YCH's Website on Cryo-Hops


YCH Press Release



APPLICATION AND USAGE

LupuLN2 may be used anywhere pellet hops can be used and are best used for late kettle and dry hop additions. As a starting point for recipe formulation or modification dose rate is estimated at 50% of pellets by weight. It is best used in beers defined by their hop flavor and aroma with hop loads of at least 1 lb/bbl in late kettle or dry hop additions where a larger yield increase will occur from substituting out pellets or whole leaf.
Click to expand...

APPLICATION AND USAGE

Debittered Leaf may be used anywhere pellet hops can be used. It is best used for kettle additions where it can be separated in the whirlpool trub. When formulating recipes the alpha content of the lot should be used to calculate bittering as would be done for whole leaf or pellet hops. It’s best used in beer styles with mild bitterness and pleasant but not dominant hop flavors and aromas. Because of the low alpha content Debittered Leaf is a good choice for sour beer production because it will have a minimal effect on lactic acid bacteria while contributing polyphenols, glycosides and flavonoids typical of low alpha hops. Some brewers have found success using Debittered Leaf in the mash to aid runoff and contribute antioxidants on the theory they will limit mash oxidation.
Click to expand...

Download 1

Download 2
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This one...
 
Schlenkerla said:
The LupulN2 has the astringent vegetable components removed or is reduced in some way. That's how I'm reading it.
Click to expand...

yeah, that is why i was excited about trying it as a keg hop. I usually don't like keg hops b/c the resulting beer has a super dank - somewhat vegetal character to my taste. I can always pick it out. It might just be delicious resinous character if using the cryohops.
 
stickyfinger said:
yeah, that is why i was excited about trying it as a keg hop. I usually don't like keg hops b/c the resulting beer has a super dank - somewhat vegetal character to my taste. I can always pick it out. It might just be delicious resinous character if using the cryohops.
Click to expand...

Let us know! (And how you added it to the keg)
 
kegged my beers today mentioned back on page 4 or 6. very happy with the flavor profile of both beers that used Cryo for whirlpool! Carbonating now to get the full aroma verdict!

Cheers and beers,
~Adam
 
Hey all I am curious about using cryo possibly for bittering. Not right now but just the possibility of using them. Do they have the concentrations of alpha acids to use them for bittering like you would for any other use and just cut in half, or are the AA's not really in whats collected for the cryo hops?
 
eagle23 said:
Hey all I am curious about using cryo possibly for bittering. Not right now but just the possibility of using them. Do they have the concentrations of alpha acids to use them for bittering like you would for any other use and just cut in half, or are the AA's not really in whats collected for the cryo hops?
Click to expand...

Alpha acids are usually double (or more) in cryo hops. Ones I have used are between 29 and 35% AA. So you could use half or less by weight for bittering if desired. Although extract would be a better resource for that. Wasaaay cheaper
 
^or you could just read the AA% percentage on the package like you normally would and formulate recipe accordingly. Why would you be so careless as to just guess?
 
eagle23 said:
Hey all I am curious about using cryo possibly for bittering. Not right now but just the possibility of using them. Do they have the concentrations of alpha acids to use them for bittering like you would for any other use and just cut in half, or are the AA's not really in whats collected for the cryo hops?
Click to expand...

The mfgr suggests whirlpool and dry hopping.

All the articles I've read always suggest as the mfgr has stated.

I don't think they were ever intended for bittering. Like I said they're mainly intended for flavor and aroma.
 
Schlenkerla said:
The mfgr suggests whirlpool and dry hopping.

All the articles I've read always suggest as the mfgr has stated.

I don't think they were ever intended for bittering. Like I said they're mainly intended for flavor and aroma.
Click to expand...

Yeah I get that. But say someone was going to make a super hoppy DIPA and wanted to keep the amount of hops down as a way to minimizing losses during the boil. This could be a way to do that. Maybe not the best way given the price, but a way none the less.
 
Yes. There would be much less vegetal matter and efficiency would probably go up due to it. Try it out and see what happens, only one way to know.
 
Bringing this back up, but what are ppl doing to use these as a keg hop? A bag or free? I just brewed a NEIPA so I will be kegging in a few days and wondering if I should keg hop or use it in my DH?
 
Recent announcement was that they going to start to pelletize the powder. Too many complaints about being difficult to mix.
 
Sbe2 said:
Bringing this back up, but what are ppl doing to use these as a keg hop? A bag or free? I just brewed a NEIPA so I will be kegging in a few days and wondering if I should keg hop or use it in my DH?
Click to expand...

mad ferm. bagged his. i think a SS diptube filter would be great too. i have one and am going to try it at some point.

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html

http://scottjanish.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/keg filter 10.jpg
 
eagle23 said:
Yeah I get that. But say someone was going to make a super hoppy DIPA and wanted to keep the amount of hops down as a way to minimizing losses during the boil. This could be a way to do that. Maybe not the best way given the price, but a way none the less.
Click to expand...

Its actually prety good solution to kettle losses, the other is using extract for bitter and flavor too. The issue is that the newer products are usually limited in variety so you have to mix and match your hops. Big brewers can order extract to spec and sit on it over the course of a year. Then mix in powders of the most popular hops.
 
SanPancho said:
Much easier to deal with than powder?
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Yeah, I hate the powder. Getting it all out of the bag and makes more mess if measuring or whatever. Pellets are better all around. I assumed the pelletized version would stay fresher longer as well given that the surface area is so much lower.
 

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