cryo hops/lupulin powder dry hopping question

[AOD]

Wait, what? Who is recirculating their fermenters? That sounds like a terrible idea. But I have heard that the cryo hops float (when dumped into the fermenter) from the head brewer at the brewery I'm helping out at.

At the commercial level, after yeast is pulled out of the conical and/or in the bright tank. I saw some feedback that they can get full utilization with powder / cryo and recirculation in hours versus days.

Obviously recirculation brings on a new challenge of C02 purging / oxidation and sanitation versus just letting the beer sit in brite or secondary.

~Adam

 

[AOD]

I'm in a bit of a time crunch, I'd like to dry hope and carb at the same time. Has anyone dry hopped with cryo pellets in a keg? I have a fine mesh hop sock, wondering if I could dry hop in that, in a keg without having to transfer to another keg for serving.

I'm going to offer my experience (at 318 batches of beer into this journey) that dry hopping in kegs with pellets is a horrible idea. Dry hopping with pellets / powder / cryo is likely going to follow that experience.

The issue with pellets is they sink and they go right for the dip tube. You get clogs or foam when the bag gets sucked up.

Leaf hops float, but when I tried to time crunch a beer by force carbing the keg and dry hopping at room temp @ 30 PSI, the hop bag pushed down to the bottom. Foam and clogs.

If time-crunched, I strongly suggest a small increase in your dry hop and add it directly to the primary for 1-2 days. You'll be waaaaay better off.

~Adam

 

[couchsending]

I'm going to offer my experience (at 318 batches of beer into this journey) that dry hopping in kegs with pellets is a horrible idea. Dry hopping with pellets / powder / cryo is likely going to follow that experience.

The issue with pellets is they sink and they go right for the dip tube. You get clogs or foam when the bag gets sucked up.

Leaf hops float, but when I tried to time crunch a beer by force carbing the keg and dry hopping at room temp @ 30 PSI, the hop bag pushed down to the bottom. Foam and clogs.

If time-crunched, I strongly suggest a small increase in your dry hop and add it directly to the primary for 1-2 days. You'll be waaaaay better off.

~Adam

Suspend the bag of pellets with dental floss. Lids still seal and nothing gets sucked up the dip tube.

Or

Use one of the canisters Utahbiodiesel sells

Or

As Janish does put a mesh screen around the whole dip tube and just chuck em in loose. Also available at Utahbiodiesel

Keg hopping adds depth to the Hop aroma profile and is very different than just adding more in primary. Done in 10ish times and zero grassy off flavors, no stuck poppets or dip tubes, no leaky lids.

Willing to bet that most decent sized breweries selling hoppy beers are recirculating during DH. Cuts DH time waaaaay down. Max two days for full extraction, more often less. I thought about doing it with the quick carb but I'm pretty sure you'd clog the poppets and you'd have to pull the carb stone as well cause it would get ruined. There are videos of people recirculating on small conicals which I might have to try in the future.

 

[Schlenkerla]

The simple route with cryo is to whirlpool. If it's too late, the beer is fermented and you want to use cryo. Make a hop tea, with boiling water and a coffee press, steep, plunge then dump that in an empty keg and transfer your finished beer.

This is a old BYO endorsed method for infusing hop flavor.

Nothing says you have use it I a fermented batch. Whirlpool them in the next batch.

 

[AOD]

The simple route with cryo is to whirlpool. If it's too late, the beer is fermented and you want to use cryo.

Nothing says you have use it I a fermented batch. Whirlpool them in the next batch.

Schlenkerla, are you proposing whirlpool only without a dry hop?

I considered this on my 6oz cryo whirlpool beer. I added 2oz cryo and 2oz dry hops yesterday though.

~Adam

 

[AOD]

Use one of the canisters Utahbiodiesel sells

I do have one of those stainless steel screen canisters now, I actually got mine at stainlessbrewing.com I think. This approach to adding hops to kegs is a bit different than when I first started!

I suppose I'll give keg hopping another whirl. I too did not get grassy, but I've found I can get the hop aroma profile and volume I want with 1 or 2 dry hop additions in primary, then keg for secondary.

Cheers,
~Adam

 

[beersk]

At the commercial level, after yeast is pulled out of the conical and/or in the bright tank. I saw some feedback that they can get full utilization with powder / cryo and recirculation in hours versus days.

Obviously recirculation brings on a new challenge of C02 purging / oxidation and sanitation versus just letting the beer sit in brite or secondary.

~Adam

Yes, that was what I was thinking, plus knocking trub and yeast back up into suspension. Sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I have dry hopped twice with cryo hops. The last batch was 6 oz of citra cryo into a 1/2 bbl for three days at 65. It is a fantastic hop bomb. I crashed it on day two and racked it to the keg the end of the third day.

I wouldn't really worry too much about it.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Schlenkerla, are you proposing whirlpool only without a dry hop?

I considered this on my 6oz cryo whirlpool beer. I added 2oz cryo and 2oz dry hops yesterday though.

~Adam

Yes sort of....

Some of the links posted in this thread and what I read suggested cryo are best primarily for whirlpool or late additions.

They went on to say if you dry hop use a blend of both regular (whole leaf hops) and cryo. You can half the cryo since they are more potent.

 

[jammin]

The simple route with cryo is to whirlpool. If it's too late, the beer is fermented and you want to use cryo. Make a hop tea, with boiling water and a coffee press, steep, plunge then dump that in an empty keg and transfer your finished beer.

This is a old BYO endorsed method for infusing hop flavor.

Nothing says you have use it I a fermented batch. Whirlpool them in the next batch.

How can it be too late?

Several studies have indicated that 24-48hrs yields peak Hop aroma & flavor in the dry hop. Cryo powder has already mechanically separated what you are trying incorporate. Logic would dictate it would more efficient if anything when dry hopping with this stuff

 

[Schlenkerla]

How can it be too late?

Several studies have indicated that 24-48hrs yields peak Hop aroma & flavor in the dry hop. Cryo powder has already mechanically separated what you are trying incorporate. Logic would dictate it would more efficient if anything when dry hopping with this stuff

It's to late to "Whirl pool" if it's chilled in a fermenter already or obviously already fermented.

That's why I suggested the French coffee press. Add heat and hops at boiling.

Most of the recommendations with cryo have been to whirlpool while the wort is hot so as to to isomerize or blend with the beer. It tends to lock-in unlike dry hopping. Which tends to fade with time when you use traditional whole leaf hops.

Give this a read.... it talks about isomerization and hop essential oil solubility and vaporization. Temps above 140F and below 212F. This article advocates doing whirl pool and dry hopping for the best aroma and flavor.

https://byo.com/mead/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[AOD]

^Good info, thanks dude!

 

[jammin]

It's to late to "Whirl pool" if it's chilled in a fermenter already or obviously already fermented.

That's why I suggested the French coffee press. Add heat and hops at boiling.

Most of the recommendations with cryo have been to whirlpool while the wort is hot so as to to isomerize or blend with the beer. It tends to lock-in unlike dry hopping. Which tends to fade with time when you use traditional whole leaf hops.

Give this a read.... it talks about isomerization and hop essential oil solubility and vaporization. Temps above 140F and below 212F. This article advocates doing whirl pool and dry hopping for the best aroma and flavor.

https://byo.com/mead/item/2808-hop-stands

That "study" is garbage. Anyone that brews IPA with any enthusiasm would disagree with their "stats" on dry hopping rate. Sounds like Budweiser wrote this

It also states that dry hopping yields the greatest aroma but not as much taste. They also add hops pretty hot; I can see where would people would associate this "increase" in flavor with bitterness. We all now know that this is not the mark of a well crafted IPA


I still say this product would best suited for dry hop

 

[Schlenkerla]

That "study" is garbage. Anyone that brews IPA with any enthusiasm would disagree with their "stats" on dry hopping rate. Sounds like Budweiser wrote this

It also states that dry hopping yields the greatest aroma but not as much taste. They also add hops pretty hot; I can see where would people would associate this "increase" in flavor with bitterness. We all now know that this is not the mark of a well crafted IPA


I still say this product would best suited for dry hop

Not sure how you equate the article as garbage. Unless you don't like the hop rate. Not sure where you get a Budweiser idea.

This is the 100 IBU DIPA posted in the article; 4.5 oz during the boil, 3 oz in the hop stand, 3 oz in the primary, 2.5 oz in the secondary. 13 oz total is not skimping on hops some of which are high alpha acids.

I do think there is a solubility limit consideration coupled with what's practical. Adding more or too much is a waste of money and results in lost beer. It all depends on what you want, so toss that side for discussions sake.

In my opinion flavor (or taste) and aroma are almost one in the same. Thats the perception by many because a lot of flavor comes from aroma. Drink something or eat something then do it again pinching your nose. The ability to sense aroma makes a difference on one's perceived flavor. Ever been sick and food seems tasteless?

It's been a pretty well known fact the sequences of hop additions start with bittering, migrates to flavor, then ends aroma. Dry hopping is nearly all aroma. The gray area is where flavor changes to aroma. I think most flavor is extracted with heat (like bitterness).

My reason for posting it was to show how certain hop elements get into beer; hot vs room temp.

I also posted this because it discusses isomerization and the vaporization of the hop oils. After reading this it's a consideration on how to use cryo since cryo (LupilN2 & Debittered Hops) rich in oils and resins. Heat is how they get fused (chemically bonded) into the beer.

I consider the following;

A) Isomerization via whirlpool as the locking method to add and retain flavor and some aroma.

B.) Dry hopping adds aroma and flavor (via aroma) but has temporary fresh hop bouquet. Diminishes with time.

YCH, Scott Janis and BYO Recommends both however on two fronts;

(Whirlpool & Dry Hopping)

(Whole Hops & Cryo Hops)

Whole hops have less tendency to clog during transfer.

Last point to consider is how long the beer is going to sit around. My bigger beers tend to drink slower, so I'd do more whirl pool with them. Smaller session beers go fast so I'd dry hop more with those. I keg, so i don't have leftover bottles sitting around. Loss of hop flavor (via aroma) is NOT a long term consideration.

 

[Tknishi]

I bottled my IPA brewed with cryo hops and honestly it's not that hoppy, or at least as hoppy as I was hoping. I don't expect it to get hoppier after carbing up and conditioning. Just wanted to share my experience since i commented earlier in this thread.

This was a 3-gallon batch, I went with a simple grain bill, 2-row and a little carapils, mash low at 148. SG - 1.056, FG - 1.006 (WLP001 with starter).

Hops adjusted based on what people said to use half the hops if using cryo hops.
1 oz magnum pellet at 60 min, the 1 oz cascade (cryo) at flameout, 1 oz simcoe (cryo) at 11 days, and 1 oz ekuanot (cryo) at 15 days, then bottled at 20 days.

Biggest pro i experienced, very little trub from cryo hops.

Maybe I am just a hop head, or maybe I need way more hops, and I'm not an experienced brewer by any means, so use the info as you like, but just wanted to share.

Anybody else just underwhelmed by their experience with cryo?

 

[stickyfinger]

I bottled my IPA brewed with cryo hops and honestly it's not that hoppy, or at least as hoppy as I was hoping. I don't expect it to get hoppier after carbing up and conditioning. Just wanted to share my experience since i commented earlier in this thread.

This was a 3-gallon batch, I went with a simple grain bill, 2-row and a little carapils, mash low at 148. SG - 1.056, FG - 1.006 (WLP001 with starter).

Hops adjusted based on what people said to use half the hops if using cryo hops.
1 oz magnum pellet at 60 min, the 1 oz cascade (cryo) at flameout, 1 oz simcoe (cryo) at 11 days, and 1 oz ekuanot (cryo) at 15 days, then bottled at 20 days.

Biggest pro i experienced, very little trub from cryo hops.

Maybe I am just a hop head, or maybe I need way more hops, and I'm not an experienced brewer by any means, so use the info as you like, but just wanted to share.

Anybody else just underwhelmed by their experience with cryo?

does your usual recipe with 2 oz at each point have the same or more hoppiness?

 

[Tknishi]

does your usual recipe with 2 oz at each point have the same or more hoppiness?

The last IPA I made had a similar grain bill, but a slightly different hop schedule. I forget the exact hops off the top of my head, but I did a 1oz. (60 min), 2 oz. (5 min), 2 oz. (flameout), and one 2 oz. dry hop. As i recall it had more hoppiness when bottling than this one, but even then i wanted to more hoppiness! I was hoping the cryo hops might be able to give me that without having to spend more money on adding more hops.

 

[stickyfinger]

The last IPA I made had a similar grain bill, but a slightly different hop schedule. I forget the exact hops off the top of my head, but I did a 1oz. (60 min), 2 oz. (5 min), 2 oz. (flameout), and one 2 oz. dry hop. As i recall it had more hoppiness when bottling than this one, but even then i wanted to more hoppiness! I was hoping the cryo hops might be able to give me that without having to spend more money on adding more hops.

I've heard cryos are anywhere b/w 2-3x more powerful. Maybe keep trying them to see if on avg they are closer to 2x? I haven't used them yet. I was also hoping that they they could at least give more resinous, intense hop flavor. Seems like they might deteriorate faster due to the increased surface area?

I think 6 oz whirlpool and 6 oz dry hop is a good amount to get a really intense hoppiness in ipa. i've gone up to 12 oz dry hop with 6 oz whirlpool, but i don't know that it really added too much more character, probably some. I don't mind "wasting" some money on hops though if it means getting the most intensely hoppy beer possible. I think I calculated out that the cryos were maybe a touch more expensive than buying pellets in bulk if they were 2x more effective. 3x more effective and they would be a better deal (from prices i have seen)

 

[Schlenkerla]

I think the big thing here with cryo is not so much for making the hop bomb of an IPA or DIPA. You can do that with regular pellets or whole leaf.

I think the "Session IPA" with 1.040 OG is where they might shine. Bitter at 20-25 then whirlpool them. Cryo are Debittered hops.

Some places will use Cascade, Citra, Mosaic, Amarillo, but only late additions like; 15, 10, 5, 0. IBU is low 18-20 but it's full of citrus hop flavor.

My local brewery does this with just Citra and Mosaic.

The twist is to do that and then whirlpool with cryo. 200F down to 140F. Amp the hop flavor aroma without adding bitterness.

I once whirlpooled with 3 oz of 7C Falconers Flight. Wow! It was way too sweet with a late hoppy, bitter, resin-like aftertaste. Almost phenolic in taste. It was totally out of balance.

 

[stickyfinger]

cryohops are not debittered to my knowledge

 

[Wildcat_Brewing]

i always do my second dry hop in the keg. I have the clear beer draught system for all my kegs and it is a float that draws the beer off the top, no more dreaded dip tube which caused me lots of problems in general.

 

[Schlenkerla]

cryohops are not debittered to my knowledge

From their presser...

"Developed by Yakima Chief – Hopunion, Cryo Hops® represents the most innovative technology in hop processing. It uses a proprietary cryogenic separation process which preserves all components of each hop fraction, producing two simultaneous co-products, LupuLN2® and Debittered Leaf.

LupuLN2 is the concentrated lupulin of whole-leaf hops containing resins and aromatic oils. It is designed to provide intense hop flavor and aroma, enabling brewers to dose large quantities of hops without introducing astringent flavors or vegetative cone material. During early R & D trials, brewers specifically cited ‘juicy’ and ‘resinous’ characteristics. LupuLN2 offers twice the resin content of traditional whole-leaf and hop pellet products, and should be dosed at approximately half the amount by weight.
Debittered Leaf is the concentrated bract of whole-leaf hops which has been separated from the lupulin glands. It is a high-quality, low-alpha product which retains variety-specific aroma and flavor characteristics and can be derived from any hop brand. The result is an enticing Northwest twist on traditional low-alpha, noble hops.

Product availability includes Cascade, Citra® Brand HBC 394, Columbus (LupuLN2 only), Ekuanot™ Brand HBC 366, Loral™ Brand HBC 291, Mosaic® Brand HBC 369, Palisade® Brand YCR 4, and Simcoe® Brand YCR 14 hops. LupuLN2 is available in hop powder or pellet form; debittered leaf is available as pellets.

Cryo Hops products are currently available to commercial brewers via YCH HOPS and its distributor partners. Home brew packaging will be released in July 2017."

https://ychhops.com/hop-products/cryo-hops

 

[Schlenkerla]

The way I read this ^^^^ is to separate and reformulate with oil, resin, and debittered cone. Debittered doesn't mean no bitterness. The vegetable astringency is removed. The AAU is raised with the processing.

 

[jammin]

The twist is to do that and then whirlpool with cryo. 200F down to 140F. Amp the hop flavor aroma without adding bitterness.

.

just stop with the misinformation already. isomerization occurs at temps 170* and up. for a product that can easily have 20+ percent AA, you can EASILY make a very bitter beer by adding these at higher temps... like i tried to tell you earlier... I would suspect that since this is a powder it would dissolve easier than pellets & even easier than flower. Logically, you can assume this would isomerize even faster for a higher overall utilization of AA.

lets also consider that mycerene and like compounds have low volatilization points. many astute brewers on this site have started chilling wort to 160* prior to whirlpool additions. i would make sure this technique at a minimum is applied when using this product

 

[couchsending]

The straight powder form is incredibly hard to get into solution when dry hopping. If you don't like bagging you need to find some alternate ways to get it into the beer. The pelletized form of the powder was created for that reason, much easier to use cold side.

 

[jammin]

The straight powder form is incredibly hard to get into solution when dry hopping. If you don't like bagging you need to find some alternate ways to get it into the beer. The pelletized form of the powder was created for that reason, much easier to use cold side.

does one need to "get it into solution". are people expecting this stuff to completely dissolve.

it simply the oils mechanically separated from the flower. why would it be any harder for it have the same effect as say pellets or or flower when dry hopping? logically one would think physically 1 step ahead of the former. by all reports up to this point, nobody has had trouble achieving good results from dry hopping with it; hence the 2:1 rule which is currently floating around

 

[Schlenkerla]

does one need to "get it into solution". are people expecting this stuff to completely dissolve.

it simply the oils mechanically separated from the flower. why would it be any harder for it have the same effect as say pellets or or flower when dry hopping? logically one would think physically 1 step ahead of the former. by all reports up to this point, nobody has had trouble achieving good results from dry hopping with it; hence the 2:1 rule which is currently floating around

Dude I NEVER said NOT to dry hop. Said to do both.

 

[Schlenkerla]

just stop with the misinformation already. isomerization occurs at temps 170* and up. for a product that can easily have 20+ percent AA, you can EASILY make a very bitter beer by adding these at higher temps... like i tried to tell you earlier... I would suspect that since this is a powder it would dissolve easier than pellets & even easier than flower. Logically, you can assume this would isomerize even faster for a higher overall utilization of AA.

lets also consider that mycerene and like compounds have low volatilization points. many astute brewers on this site have started chilling wort to 160* prior to whirlpool additions. i would make sure this technique at a minimum is applied when using this product

No miss info....

This is like a powder but it doesn't want to blend. It sits on the surface... So how do you get it to saturate in a fermented wort?

The ability to saturate well is not that good due to solubility. It's still particulate matter but ground to smaller particles. Less mass so they float easier.

Like I said do both dry hop and whirlpool.

It's NOT only one way, read the YCH website.

 

[jammin]

No miss info....

saying that this extremely high AA product does not add to bitterness @ 200* is misinformation.

 

[jammin]

The twist is to do that and then whirlpool with cryo. 200F down to 140F. Amp the hop flavor aroma without adding bitterness.

.

No miss info....

saying that this extremely high AA product does not add to bitterness @ 200* is misinformation.