Lunar Crush lager is pretty good, too. BIG thiol flavors from minimal hopping, in my experience.
Cosmic Punch (OYL-402) by Omega Yeast Labs
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
For all the Europeans feeling left out of the discussion of the gene edited yeasts, White Labs have released WLP077 Tropicale Yeast Blend, a blend of "natural" thiolising yeasts which they discuss here :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=74
They claim 100x the levels of 3SHA (grapefruit/passionfruit) versus WLP001, turning it from Resin, Dank, Pine to Passionfruit, Peach, Vanilla according to their sensory panel.
They also published this chart of beta-lyase activity. Aside from an iffy-looking result for WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale, the stars (or at least those with more activity than the Maxithiol control) are WLP830 German Lager, WLP400 Belgian Wit, WLP565 Belgian Saison, WLP037 Yorkshire Square (a Vault strain that's currently in production), WLP519 Stranda Kveik, WLP540 Abbey Ale IV, WLP410 Belgian Wit II and WLP039 East Midlands - Notty? Also a little shout out for a strain I have a soft spot for WLP041 Pacific which has error bars up to 3x Maxithiol even if its average is about 75% of Maxithiol (which is still a lot compared to most).
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=74
They claim 100x the levels of 3SHA (grapefruit/passionfruit) versus WLP001, turning it from Resin, Dank, Pine to Passionfruit, Peach, Vanilla according to their sensory panel.
They also published this chart of beta-lyase activity. Aside from an iffy-looking result for WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale, the stars (or at least those with more activity than the Maxithiol control) are WLP830 German Lager, WLP400 Belgian Wit, WLP565 Belgian Saison, WLP037 Yorkshire Square (a Vault strain that's currently in production), WLP519 Stranda Kveik, WLP540 Abbey Ale IV, WLP410 Belgian Wit II and WLP039 East Midlands - Notty? Also a little shout out for a strain I have a soft spot for WLP041 Pacific which has error bars up to 3x Maxithiol even if its average is about 75% of Maxithiol (which is still a lot compared to most).
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Just used Cosmic Punch on a Hazy IPA, along with Saaz whole cone hops in the mash (as Omega recommended) and Incognito Mosaic in the hopstand. Dry hopped to the Scott Janish recommended limit, and IBUs kept down to the 40s. In the past, this beer (using Imperial Juice) has been a hop explosion that I could smell as soon as the tap started pouring. In the past, the aroma was complex and reflected the hops used.
With Cosmic Punch, the guava/passion fruit aroma is amazing...but the 'normal' smells from Citra/Mosaic are muted. Used Star Party on a Pale Ale and got the same reaction--lots of guava and passion fruit, but not much of the Centennial and Cascade that I threw in dry hops. It's almost as if the hops don't matter nearly as much. Might be a selling point for a Juicy IPA, and a brewery might save money with this, but I feel like I am losing the lovely hops used.
So, much to my surprise, not sure I am going to use these thiolized yeasts again. Not a big fan so far.
With Cosmic Punch, the guava/passion fruit aroma is amazing...but the 'normal' smells from Citra/Mosaic are muted. Used Star Party on a Pale Ale and got the same reaction--lots of guava and passion fruit, but not much of the Centennial and Cascade that I threw in dry hops. It's almost as if the hops don't matter nearly as much. Might be a selling point for a Juicy IPA, and a brewery might save money with this, but I feel like I am losing the lovely hops used.
So, much to my surprise, not sure I am going to use these thiolized yeasts again. Not a big fan so far.
OP
OP
interesting, thanks for sharing your experience!
thiolized yeast + thiols does result in a specific flavor profile. hops that are outside that profile may be overwhelmed by the released thiols and end up hidden... if you're looking to highlight centennial and cascade, then yeah - a thiolized yeast probably isn't the right choice, since you want those hops in their original, non-biotransformed state
OP
OP
Bumping this thread because as we get closer to summer, I’m thinking of finally using this yeast.
One thought I had about thiol yeasts-
What’s been people’s experience the the guava like taste and aroma as far as that flavor lasting for a while?
I brew 5 gallon batches and it takes me a while to finish a keg, maybe 7 or 8 weeks. Normal IPAs start losing some of their hop qualities after a while and the beer takes on a generic hop profile.
I was wondering if the fruitiness that is associated w thiols would last longer since it is yeast derived and maybe not as volatile as hops.
This alone would make me a big fan of cosmic punch or similar yeasts.
One thought I had about thiol yeasts-
What’s been people’s experience the the guava like taste and aroma as far as that flavor lasting for a while?
I brew 5 gallon batches and it takes me a while to finish a keg, maybe 7 or 8 weeks. Normal IPAs start losing some of their hop qualities after a while and the beer takes on a generic hop profile.
I was wondering if the fruitiness that is associated w thiols would last longer since it is yeast derived and maybe not as volatile as hops.
This alone would make me a big fan of cosmic punch or similar yeasts.
thats pretty much my experience. they are sensitive to oxygen just like hops, so no matter what you do they will fall off a bit over time just because nobody has 100% pure co2. but in general, they're pretty stable. add some k meta or ascorbic acid at kegging and it'll help knock down the dissolved oxygen and keep it fresh.
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I've brewed with Cosmic punch 3 times, Star Party and Lunar Crush once each. They all have a very specific "thiol fruit" flavor that I have realized that I just don't like. But I went all in with mash hops and Phantasm for most of them. The ones that I liked better were the ones with less thiol precursors. Just mash hops (Cascade and Saaz). My advice now is to try the yeast with no increase in precursors. Apparently the grain has significant thiol precursors. Perhaps the more subtle thiol fruit flavor would be good, and the hop contributions may still peek through. I literally dumped 13 of the 15 gallons of my most recent batches of thiolized yeast beers. Just couldn't serve it to my friends. Your results may vary...
thats an interesting take. i havent served a single thiolized beer that wasnt a hit. saaz and cascade in mash, maybe a little bit of very late kettle hop, and some beers with some dry hops, others without. all were damn good.
what i will say is that i am mostly getting the 3mha, which is your passion/guava. havent experienced the black currant, boxfruit, citrus,etc. is that because i keep using saaz/cascade? same base malt? dunno.
theres still too little info/research/results to be able to say, but it'd be damn nice if we could figure out how to hit some of those other notes. otherwise, it can be very one-note, i.e. passion/guava.
but i havent used cosmic, only star party and lunar crush.
what i will say is that i am mostly getting the 3mha, which is your passion/guava. havent experienced the black currant, boxfruit, citrus,etc. is that because i keep using saaz/cascade? same base malt? dunno.
theres still too little info/research/results to be able to say, but it'd be damn nice if we could figure out how to hit some of those other notes. otherwise, it can be very one-note, i.e. passion/guava.
but i havent used cosmic, only star party and lunar crush.
SanPancho- are your tasty beers made w phantasm powder?
I wonder if that could be the difference. My first batch w Cosmic will be w/o phantasm.
I have found that my batch made with Helio Gazer is much more enjoyable as it has aged. It has been in the keg for about 9 weeks. Most times I find my Hazies are kicked in about 4 weeks. This one has hung around because I just have not been craving a glass. The Thiol character was just too prominent and had a bit of an artificial vibe, and that has improved. I would be a little curious to try a batch made with Cosmic Punch instead to see if that provides a more balanced level of thiols.
nope. just the mash hops. and a small late-kettle charge often.
but the passion/guava note is the same. so to my mind, that just leaves malts or mash hops as the x factor. (assuming its not the yeast)
OP
OP
i've been meaning to write up my experience with HG but have been too lazy... short version: same. i did all the thiol-precursor-boosting things (mash hops, phantasm, generous amount of thiol-rich late hops) and the jolly rancher/froot loops flavor was over the top. i mostly enjoyed it, but it was a bit much. next time i use that yeast i'll be dialing down the precursors. or might just use CP instead, given its lower output of thiols.
and to those who claim that you don't need to (or flat-out shouldn't) dry-hop with thiolized yeasts: eff that noise, IMHO. i split 10 gal into two HG batches, with and without DH, and the citra DH'ed half was much better per my palette. i concede that it might have been because the citra melded with (or hid) the thiols well. regardless, i'll continue DH'ing my thiolized yeast beers.
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OP
OP
The Mad Fermentationist has written an excellent article on thiolized yeast - highly recommended reading. interesting thoughts on when and why to use thiolized yeasts.
Are Thiols a Scam? Thiolized Yeast, Phantasm, and the Rise of Designer Beer
My experiences are very much in line with Mike's. IF I return to thiolized yeasts in the future, I'm definitely toning down the freeing-up processes and will probably abandon using any of the PatB strains. It was all just too much.
OP
OP
yup, that's my conclusion too - don't wanna have too much of a good thing.
