Cosmic Punch (OYL-402) by Omega Yeast Labs

[Bobby_M]

Did you use pellet hops?
I’m totally confused about mash hoping.
Do people use filters or hop spiders when mash hopping? My assumption is that if using pellets, they’ll find their way into the wort. Thus acting almost like a 60 min charge, unless filtering them out.

The mash hopping is to generate more Thiol precursor (per Omega's text).

 

[AzOr]

The mash hopping is to generate more Thiol precursor (per Omega's text).

I get that part. I’ve poked around the net and can’t seem to find a consistent answer as to if people remove hops prior to boil.

 

[beervoid]

I get that part. I’ve poked around the net and can’t seem to find a consistent answer as to if people remove hops prior to boil.

Tha mash bed should act a filter

 

[Steverus07]

Tha mash bed should act a filter

That would only be for the vegetal material, not for components that are soluble like iso-alpha acids

 

[beervoid]

That would only be for the vegetal material, not for components that are soluble like iso-alpha acids

Ah right, I can attest that the mash hopped beers I did where more bitter, but according to their own research you dont get full extraction of bitterness, guess these oils stick to the mash bed as well.

 

[Bobby_M]

I get that part. I’ve poked around the net and can’t seem to find a consistent answer as to if people remove hops prior to boil.

Well, I mean they stay with the mash except for any of the oils that leach into wort. In my case, using BIAB, the grain and hop material gets pulled out with the bag. In a traditional mash tun, the same material should be vorlaufed out. Even if you were to put it all in a small mesh bag and placed on top of the mash, it wouldn't be removed and placed into the boil kettle after the mash. They are left behind. It's not the same as first wort hopping.

I can't comment on whether it makes a beer more bitter than expected because I created this NEIPA recipe from scratch and didn't base it on previous ones. If the formula in Brewfather is to be trusted, it calculated 10 IBUS for a 2oz mash hop of Cascade as opposed to 40 IBUS for the same amount as a 60 minute boil addition. That suggests that most of the oils don't make it into the boil.

edit: I found more references.
http://scottjanish.com/the-locksmit...hops-and-phantasm-powder-to-thiol-drive-beer/
"If you wonder what the IBU implications might be from mash hopping, Omega found that ~30% utilization in their trials of what you’d expect to get from the same amount of hops used as a 60-minute addition. In other words, you would get ~30% of the expected IBUs from a 60-minute hop addition with a mash-hop addition. Utilizing high bound 3MH hops with low alpha-acid content (like Saaz) is a great way to boost thiol precursors into the wort without worrying too much about IBU increases."

 

[Steverus07]

Ah right, I can attest that the mash hopped beers I did where more bitter, but according to their own research you dont get full extraction of bitterness, guess these oils stick to the mash bed as well.

That checks out, I don’t know what the thresholds are, but probably alpha acids don’t fully isomerize at mash temps.

 

[Off Balance Brewing]

I haven't experienced higher bitterness with a 3 to 4 oz mash hop or saaz, Chinook, nugget (what I had on hand and what the Janish material showed to be better for bound thiol). I use the brewfather mash hop utilization...and to me it might be a tad low.

Like Bobby I use a biab and pull the grains and and hops out before boil. Not sure why there isn't more utilization ibu from boiling.

Mentioned earlier the commercial pilsner I had also used phantasm. I'm sure it helps. Only homebrew source I've seen so far is hopcraft supply. Sells out as soon as they get it but you can watch for it.

 

[Off Balance Brewing]

Interesting that you say you had similar results w London ale yeast.
I believe a recent Brulosophy podcast where they made a quick mention of Imperial’s version of London ale, Juice as having the same enzyme that unbinds thiols. I’m going by memory so…
I still have a pouch of Cosmo Punch in my fridge-I’ll probably have to prop it up.
I will probably make a very simple beer w 2 row and some chit malt. For hops I’m going basic- maybe Perle and cascade. I want to see if I do perceive a fruitiness that couldn’t be explained from old school hops.

Yeah london III or juice or Britt V all unlock some. Read the omega and Janish sites, they modified the britt V to unlock more

 

[Panderson1]

Well, I mean they stay with the mash except for any of the oils that leach into wort. In my case, using BIAB, the grain and hop material gets pulled out with the bag. In a traditional mash tun, the same material should be vorlaufed out. Even if you were to put it all in a small mesh bag and placed on top of the mash, it wouldn't be removed and placed into the boil kettle after the mash. They are left behind. It's not the same as first wort hopping.

I can't comment on whether it makes a beer more bitter than expected because I created this NEIPA recipe from scratch and didn't base it on previous ones. If the formula in Brewfather is to be trusted, it calculated 10 IBUS for a 2oz mash hop of Cascade as opposed to 40 IBUS for the same amount as a 60 minute boil addition. That suggests that most of the oils don't make it into the boil.

edit: I found more references.
http://scottjanish.com/the-locksmit...hops-and-phantasm-powder-to-thiol-drive-beer/
"If you wonder what the IBU implications might be from mash hopping, Omega found that ~30% utilization in their trials of what you’d expect to get from the same amount of hops used as a 60-minute addition. In other words, you would get ~30% of the expected IBUs from a 60-minute hop addition with a mash-hop addition. Utilizing high bound 3MH hops with low alpha-acid content (like Saaz) is a great way to boost thiol precursors into the wort without worrying too much about IBU increases."

What would a typical HAZY recipe look like using this yeast? Particularly the process of using mash hops? Is anyone using Saaz in the mash?

EDIT: Sorry just noticed the recipe in that link. I can't delete

 

[Off Balance Brewing]

What would a typical HAZY recipe look like using this yeast? Particularly the process of using mash hops? Is anyone using Saaz in the mash?

EDIT: Sorry just noticed the recipe in that link. I can't delete

I just made a normal hazy with 3 or 4 oz mash hop and reduced whatever early bittering hop I had to hit my ibu target

 

[JnLnNOVA]

Bumping this bc it’s that time of year I crave hoppy/fruity beers.
The following is a very interesting read from Scott Janish regarding unlocking bound thiols. Also good info on which hops to use in the whirlpool vs mash. I only wish phantasm powder was more readily available.
http://scottjanish.com/the-locksmit...hops-and-phantasm-powder-to-thiol-drive-beer/

Appears to be in stock right now at hopcraftsupply.

 

[AzOr]

Appears to be in stock right now at hopcraftsupply.

Thanks for the notice. I may try a batch w/o first just for reference. I wanna see what Perle and Cascade can produce.

 

[AzOr]

Well, I mean they stay with the mash except for any of the oils that leach into wort. In my case, using BIAB, the grain and hop material gets pulled out with the bag. In a traditional mash tun, the same material should be vorlaufed out. Even if you were to put it all in a small mesh bag and placed on top of the mash, it wouldn't be removed and placed into the boil kettle after the mash. They are left behind. It's not the same as first wort hopping.

I can't comment on whether it makes a beer more bitter than expected because I created this NEIPA recipe from scratch and didn't base it on previous ones. If the formula in Brewfather is to be trusted, it calculated 10 IBUS for a 2oz mash hop of Cascade as opposed to 40 IBUS for the same amount as a 60 minute boil addition. That suggests that most of the oils don't make it into the boil.

edit: I found more references.
http://scottjanish.com/the-locksmit...hops-and-phantasm-powder-to-thiol-drive-beer/
"If you wonder what the IBU implications might be from mash hopping, Omega found that ~30% utilization in their trials of what you’d expect to get from the same amount of hops used as a 60-minute addition. In other words, you would get ~30% of the expected IBUs from a 60-minute hop addition with a mash-hop addition. Utilizing high bound 3MH hops with low alpha-acid content (like Saaz) is a great way to boost thiol precursors into the wort without worrying too much about IBU increases."

Thanks Bobby_M
That’s helpful. I think I’ll use my hop spider just in case.

 

[MugsWorth]

I may have overbittered my 6 gal. NEIPA with 2 oz of Cascade in mash then my reg. dose of Columbus in boil. .5 oz @ 60. 30 & 10. Does this seem like too much if i added 1 oz each flameout & whirlpool of Citra. Mosaic and Galaxy additions? That's 9.5 oz's before the dry hop.
Drank too much and went on autopilot during the brew. SMH I'm using Cosmic Punch for the 1st time.

 

[hockeybrewer]

I do biab also so I threw my hops in with the grains and pulled the bag at the end of the mash. My cascade where only 4.7% AA so even as a 60 min addition it shouldn't have been as bitter as it was. It was also so hazy it was offputting.

 

[DSK901]

I have a solid plan to brew with Cosmic Punch for the first time. (Only issue is that it is from January - but I have 5 packs and will step it up!?) I am using a huge mash hop with Cascade, 17oz in a 15gal batch, then incognito and Phantasm in the WP, with a touch of Idaho-7 T-90.

My main question is what temp are you guys fermenting at? I was leaning towards 68-70, then crash to 50-55 for the DH post-ferm. Anyone see any issues here?

 

[Off Balance Brewing]

All the brews I've made with it I ferment at 68 and ramped to 72 at the end. Worked as advertised.

I still dry hop room temp.

 

[sweetcell]

i've been following my standard IPA fermentation profile with CP: pitch at 64-65, immediately set and hold at 67-68, slowly ramp up to 73-75 as activity starts to slow down. consistently getting FGs in the 10.10 - 1.012 range.

CP has essentially become my "house yeast" for IPAs. and i brew a lot of IPA

 

[sweetcell]

heads up, cosmic punchers: Omega has gone and upped their game

Introducing Helio Gazer: Your NEIPA. Thiolized.
Created specifically to juicify IPAs, Helio Gazer boosts thiol biotransformation nearly 20x more than Cosmic Punch and more than 200x sensory threshold.

OYL-405: HELIO GAZER ALE
Note: Think of this as an amped up Cosmic Punch

i know what i'll be ordering next...

 

[cactusgarrett]

Lunar Crush lager is pretty good, too. BIG thiol flavors from minimal hopping, in my experience.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

For all the Europeans feeling left out of the discussion of the gene edited yeasts, White Labs have released WLP077 Tropicale Yeast Blend, a blend of "natural" thiolising yeasts which they discuss here :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=74
They claim 100x the levels of 3SHA (grapefruit/passionfruit) versus WLP001, turning it from Resin, Dank, Pine to Passionfruit, Peach, Vanilla according to their sensory panel.

They also published this chart of beta-lyase activity. Aside from an iffy-looking result for WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale, the stars (or at least those with more activity than the Maxithiol control) are WLP830 German Lager, WLP400 Belgian Wit, WLP565 Belgian Saison, WLP037 Yorkshire Square (a Vault strain that's currently in production), WLP519 Stranda Kveik, WLP540 Abbey Ale IV, WLP410 Belgian Wit II and WLP039 East Midlands - Notty? Also a little shout out for a strain I have a soft spot for WLP041 Pacific which has error bars up to 3x Maxithiol even if its average is about 75% of Maxithiol (which is still a lot compared to most).

 

[stealthfixr]

Just used Cosmic Punch on a Hazy IPA, along with Saaz whole cone hops in the mash (as Omega recommended) and Incognito Mosaic in the hopstand. Dry hopped to the Scott Janish recommended limit, and IBUs kept down to the 40s. In the past, this beer (using Imperial Juice) has been a hop explosion that I could smell as soon as the tap started pouring. In the past, the aroma was complex and reflected the hops used.

With Cosmic Punch, the guava/passion fruit aroma is amazing...but the 'normal' smells from Citra/Mosaic are muted. Used Star Party on a Pale Ale and got the same reaction--lots of guava and passion fruit, but not much of the Centennial and Cascade that I threw in dry hops. It's almost as if the hops don't matter nearly as much. Might be a selling point for a Juicy IPA, and a brewery might save money with this, but I feel like I am losing the lovely hops used.

So, much to my surprise, not sure I am going to use these thiolized yeasts again. Not a big fan so far.

 

[sweetcell]

lots of guava and passion fruit, but not much of the Centennial and Cascade that I threw in dry hops. It's almost as if the hops don't matter nearly as much. Might be a selling point for a Juicy IPA, and a brewery might save money with this, but I feel like I am losing the lovely hops used.

interesting, thanks for sharing your experience!

thiolized yeast + thiols does result in a specific flavor profile. hops that are outside that profile may be overwhelmed by the released thiols and end up hidden... if you're looking to highlight centennial and cascade, then yeah - a thiolized yeast probably isn't the right choice, since you want those hops in their original, non-biotransformed state

 

[sweetcell]

heads up, cosmic punchers: Omega has gone and upped their game

Introducing Helio Gazer: Your NEIPA. Thiolized.
Created specifically to juicify IPAs, Helio Gazer boosts thiol biotransformation nearly 20x more than Cosmic Punch and more than 200x sensory threshold.

OYL-405: HELIO GAZER ALE
Note: Think of this as an amped up Cosmic Punch

i know what i'll be ordering next...

ordered. brewing on saturday. even splurged for some phantasm

 

[duelerx]

Do cosmic punch and Helio gazer bring the same flavor profile with a any thiol precursor hop as saaz?

Also love the idea of playing with cosmic to bring marmalade notes for a bitter.

 

[AzOr]

Bumping this thread because as we get closer to summer, I’m thinking of finally using this yeast.

One thought I had about thiol yeasts-
What’s been people’s experience the the guava like taste and aroma as far as that flavor lasting for a while?

I brew 5 gallon batches and it takes me a while to finish a keg, maybe 7 or 8 weeks. Normal IPAs start losing some of their hop qualities after a while and the beer takes on a generic hop profile.

I was wondering if the fruitiness that is associated w thiols would last longer since it is yeast derived and maybe not as volatile as hops.

This alone would make me a big fan of cosmic punch or similar yeasts.

 

[SanPancho]

thats pretty much my experience. they are sensitive to oxygen just like hops, so no matter what you do they will fall off a bit over time just because nobody has 100% pure co2. but in general, they're pretty stable. add some k meta or ascorbic acid at kegging and it'll help knock down the dissolved oxygen and keep it fresh.

 

[RCope]

I've brewed with Cosmic punch 3 times, Star Party and Lunar Crush once each. They all have a very specific "thiol fruit" flavor that I have realized that I just don't like. But I went all in with mash hops and Phantasm for most of them. The ones that I liked better were the ones with less thiol precursors. Just mash hops (Cascade and Saaz). My advice now is to try the yeast with no increase in precursors. Apparently the grain has significant thiol precursors. Perhaps the more subtle thiol fruit flavor would be good, and the hop contributions may still peek through. I literally dumped 13 of the 15 gallons of my most recent batches of thiolized yeast beers. Just couldn't serve it to my friends. Your results may vary...

 

[SanPancho]

thats an interesting take. i havent served a single thiolized beer that wasnt a hit. saaz and cascade in mash, maybe a little bit of very late kettle hop, and some beers with some dry hops, others without. all were damn good.

what i will say is that i am mostly getting the 3mha, which is your passion/guava. havent experienced the black currant, boxfruit, citrus,etc. is that because i keep using saaz/cascade? same base malt? dunno.

theres still too little info/research/results to be able to say, but it'd be damn nice if we could figure out how to hit some of those other notes. otherwise, it can be very one-note, i.e. passion/guava.

but i havent used cosmic, only star party and lunar crush.