Cosmic Punch (OYL-402) by Omega Yeast Labs

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sweetcell

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a thread focused on the discussion of Cosmic Punch, a GMO yeast that can unbind bound thiols.

Introducing Cosmic Punch™: A Thiol-Boosting Version of British V (OYL-011)

Genetically Modified (GM) Yeast Strains: Unlocking Bound Hop Thiols and Engineering Targeted Fermentation Characteristics

to date, most discussion of cosmic punch has occurred in the "Northeast style IPA" recipe thread, starting on page 374 through 380, then kicks up again on 384 for a few more pages.

i currently have a pack spinning in a 4L starter. hope to brew this weekend and will split it between two 5-gal ferments with different dry-hops. i will be trying mash-hopping for the first time, and i'll be using hops high in thiols throughout (citra, mosaic, simcoe, cascade, hallertau blanc, etc.). i will report back with my experience.
 
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shetc

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Cosmic Debris - 3/4 Amarillo/citra IPA, 1/4 Moscato grape must, 1 package Cosmic Punch (no starter).
20210912_181118.jpg
 

shetc

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dang, that looks nice... how is/was the aroma and taste? do you feel the cosmic punch made a difference?

Super fruity, of course, given the hops and grape must. Was playing with the idea of releasing loads of thiols, but maybe I should have tried a simple blond ale to see if it really makes a difference. Damned enjoyable in either case 😀
 

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I brewed a Cosmic Punch NEIPA around the beginning of Oct. Due to a cross country move it was kegged after only a week in the fermenter which led to over pressurization and other problems. In spite of this it's the best NEIPA I've made to date and the next one will be even better.
 

beervoid

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I've done 4 batches of cosmic always a split with verdant. Even with mash hopping I did not notice any differences in the beer. Kind of disappointing.
I'll be trialling it more but you might have to use some sort of thiol enhancing products to really make it work in heavily hopped beers.
 
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sweetcell

sweetcell

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i will report back with my experience.
i brewed this batch and am now drinking the beers, but thanks to a few screw-ups i don't think i can use these beers to evaluate much about the Cosmic Punch.

brew day was a disaster: recipe issues (accidentally added too much wheat) and an unfortunate decision to wrap to add a bag to my screen resulted in a completely stuck mash. after fermentation, all 3 beers from this brew had a notable "bite" to them. i believe it was the product of a perfect storm: beer was too bitter because of too many early hops (including mash hops), accidentally racked a lot of trub to my fermentors which included a lot of kettle hop matter, yeast didn't flocc well (did i forget the salts?), beer spent too long on the dry-hops, etc. by far the "greenest" beer i have ever made. aroma was nice, but i had a lot of trouble getting paste the flavor that i now associate with that aroma. a month later, and after recently fining with gelatin (who fines a hazy?!?), the beers are now very tasty. some of the aroma has predictably faded. they're still too bitter for the style but i don't mind.

next time, i will compare daughter to mother by doing side-by-side batches of CP and British V (OYL-011). and i'll learn from my mistakes: keep the high beta-glucan & huskless grains to under 20% (instead of the stupid 36% i accidentally used in the above beers), kill the bittering charge, etc.
 

secretlevel

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I've done 4 batches of cosmic always a split with verdant. Even with mash hopping I did not notice any differences in the beer. Kind of disappointing.
I'll be trialling it more but you might have to use some sort of thiol enhancing products to really make it work in heavily hopped beers.

How much did you mash hop? Omega recommend 0.5-2lbs/bbl I believe, which is 0.25-1oz/gal.

I did a side by side with my homebrew club of LA3 and Cosmic in a blonde ale without much hops and the differences were profound. LA3 was your casual blonde that's slightly fruity and Cosmic had pretty strong passionfruit and white grape must notes. I'm not sure how much this will be reflected in a heavily hopped product, but a New England Pale Ale with some Cascade and Zappa tasted freaking amazing. I never thought about that hop combo being that good, I bet it won't be with LA3.
 

beervoid

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How much did you mash hop? Omega recommend 0.5-2lbs/bbl I believe, which is 0.25-1oz/gal.

I did a side by side with my homebrew club of LA3 and Cosmic in a blonde ale without much hops and the differences were profound. LA3 was your casual blonde that's slightly fruity and Cosmic had pretty strong passionfruit and white grape must notes. I'm not sure how much this will be reflected in a heavily hopped product, but a New England Pale Ale with some Cascade and Zappa tasted freaking amazing. I never thought about that hop combo being that good, I bet it won't be with LA3.

I put 1oz simcoe in mash (5gal). Avoided whirlpool as research says it can lower thiols.
I sampled both before dryhopping and had to look very hard to smell taste a difference.

Cascade and zappa in mash hop?
I feel the dry hops really trample on whatever cosmic does.
 

secretlevel

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I put 1oz simcoe in mash (5gal). Avoided whirlpool as research says it can lower thiols.
I sampled both before dryhopping and had to look very hard to smell taste a difference.

Cascade and zappa in mash hop?
I feel the dry hops really trample on whatever cosmic does.


Quite possibly! How do the beers compare 2 months after kegging?
 

beervoid

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Quite possibly! How do the beers compare 2 months after kegging?
I finished the last one with mash hopping about a week ago and they where about 2 month old, not much changed other then hop aroma.
I would even argue cause to me at some point the verdant batch tasted and smelled better that the biotransformation was stripping away flavor and aroma.

I'll run a few more trials as its as good of a yeast as la3 so why not. Thinking of upping the mash hopping and using czech saaz.
Without access to phantasm powder I wonder if we can see full potential from this yeast in hoppy beers and it also begs the question if that phantasm powder alone is already making a difference.
 

secretlevel

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I finished the last one with mash hopping about a week ago and they where about 2 month old, not much changed other then hop aroma.
I would even argue cause to me at some point the verdant batch tasted and smelled better that the biotransformation was stripping away flavor and aroma.

I'll run a few more trials as its as good of a yeast as la3 so why not. Thinking of upping the mash hopping and using czech saaz.
Without access to phantasm powder I wonder if we can see full potential from this yeast in hoppy beers and it also begs the question if that phantasm powder alone is already making a difference.

I feel like the beer that I made is holding up way better because it was made with Cosmic rather than LA3. Those underlying fruity esters seem hold up the beer way better after the hops fade about 2.5 months in.

Having said that, I haven't done a side by side like you so maybe it's all in my head :p
Do try loading things up in the mash though. I'd be curious to see how 1oz/gal mash hop beer would come out when you do the Verdant/Cosmic split. I'd recommend splitting Saaz and Cascade for this if possible

Side note - I also haven't tried Verdant as my local shops don't carry it. How does it differ from your classic LA3?
 

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I used Cosmic Punch once. It was good but didn't have that extra oomph I was expecting. I did go light on the mash hops, tho (an ounce iirc). I'll eventually try it again but it will get much more hops in the mash.
 

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I feel like the beer that I made is holding up way better because it was made with Cosmic rather than LA3. Those underlying fruity esters seem hold up the beer way better after the hops fade about 2.5 months in.

Having said that, I haven't done a side by side like you so maybe it's all in my head :p
Do try loading things up in the mash though. I'd be curious to see how 1oz/gal mash hop beer would come out when you do the Verdant/Cosmic split. I'd recommend splitting Saaz and Cascade for this if possible

Side note - I also haven't tried Verdant as my local shops don't carry it. How does it differ from your classic LA3?
Verdant and La3 are exactly the same for me
 

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I'm not sure if I'd want to support this level of profiteering. GM brewer's yeast? Tinkering with yeast genomes for business profits isn't really acceptable and just expresses 'look how different we are' to make money. More like 'look how irresponsible we are'. It's hijacking powerful technology developed for more important applications, like reducing disease and hunger. There is more than enough biodiversity already existing in natural/non-GM brewer's yeasts. I'm sure there are corporations out there who'd be more than happy to brush aside brewer's yeast biodiversity to sell us all one artificial strain so their streamlined supply chain stuffs shareholders silly. This goes against the ethos often expressed among the craft brewing community. That 'f*ck the big man' attitude. Are there crafty brewers among us?

Edit: I've just skimmed Scott Janish's (home brew, beer) blog on GM technology. Maybe he should stick with home brew. Unfortunately, his opinions are biased by 'experts' with conflicts of interest and blinkered by a strong desire to be 'different' and push beer beyond beer. Attempts to reinvent beer using GM technology are arrogant and little more than a form of bankruptcy.
 
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Bobby_M

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I'm not sure if I'd want to support this level of profiteering. GM brewer's yeast? Tinkering with yeast genomes for business profits isn't really acceptable and just expresses 'look how different we are' to make money. More like 'look how irresponsible we are'. It's hijacking powerful technology developed for more important applications, like reducing disease and hunger. There is more than enough biodiversity already existing in natural/non-GM brewer's yeasts. I'm sure there are corporations out there who'd be more than happy to brush aside brewer's yeast biodiversity to sell us all one artificial strain so their streamlined supply chain stuffs shareholders silly. This goes against the ethos often expressed among the craft brewing community. That 'f*ck the big man' attitude. Are there crafty brewers among us?

Edit: I've just skimmed Scott Janish's (home brew, beer) blog on GM technology. Maybe he should stick with home brew. Unfortunately, his opinions are biased by 'experts' with conflicts of interest and blinkered by a strong desire to be 'different' and push beer beyond beer. Attempts to reinvent beer using GM technology are arrogant and little more than a form of bankruptcy.

Ok, dont use it. I'm sure they are all buying private jets using their nefariously acheived profits.

I find the distinction between progressive selection of natural occurring mutations and deliberate gene programming to be rather arbitrary. Does it really come down to motive that makes the result either righteous or repulsive?
 

McMullan

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Ok, dont use it. I'm sure they are all buying private jets using their nefariously acheived profits.

I find the distinction between progressive selection of natural occurring mutations and deliberate gene programming to be rather arbitrary. Does it really come down to motive that makes the result either righteous or repulsive?
The difference between selecting for genetically determined traits within a species' gene pool vs splicing in foreign DNA is not 'arbitrary', Bobby. Far from it. I'm pretty sure one of us has a background in molecular genetics. Can you guess who?
 

Bobby_M

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The difference between selecting for genetically determined traits within a species' gene pool vs splicing in foreign DNA is not 'arbitrary', Bobby. Far from it. I'm pretty sure one of us has a background in molecular genetics. Can you guess who?

You are the expert.

My question remains. Is it the motive that matters? Thats what your post was focussed on rather than using your expertise to explain any other reason that it is bad for brewers or consumers.
 

beervoid

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I understand the sentiment here, I also pondered the "gmo" thing but luckily Omega is not Monsanto and its not being used to maximize profits and kill other yeasts.
I for one welcome new innovations as long as they make great beer!
 

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I'd love to get this thread back to a discussion of fermentation characteristics and results for Cosmic Punch, as I'm very interested in the different ways other brewers use it.

I've only used this yeast once on my first NEIPA. I really enjoyed the beer, but as I have absolutely nothing to compare it to, I can't say if my enjoyment was because of anything that Cosmic Punch brought to the party. I used a lot of LUPOMAX Idaho 7 in the boil/whirlpool, as I know that hop has more thiol precursors than others. And I did get a lot of fruity aromas. I'm interested to try this yeast in less hoppy beers or in a side-by-side to really try and understand what, if anything, it's doing.

I have had a commercial beer brewed with Cosmic Punch and phantasm powder that was very good. It had tons of passionfruit and lychee aromas. Alas, no phantasm for us homebrewers yet.
 

TBA

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For those who are using Cosmic punch what has been your experience with repitches? The first batch I thought had added fruitiness but did not do a side by side with my standard Verdant/New England mix (one pack each). Made a 1.5l starter and it was a volcano… I don’t like liquid yeast. I top cropped at ~50% attenuation and saved for the next batch. I top cropped a total of 4 times for a total of 5 brews with Cosmic.
I wasn’t all that impressed with any of the subsequent batches.
Tried several known hop combos. For the first 2 brews I added 2 oz Cascade in the mash, 60 [email protected] Next 2 I upped to 3 oz. Last one got 2 oz Calypso.
 
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sweetcell

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For those who are using Cosmic punch what has been your experience with repitches?
i was going to save some from my first, and to date only, batch - but i looked at my calendar and realized it would be a long time before i had the opportunity to brew again, got lazy, and said "Eff it - i'll just buy a fresh pitch". i'd also be interested in hearing if other folks experienced a drop in aromatics with subsequent pitches.
 

palmtrees

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For those who are using Cosmic punch what has been your experience with repitches? The first batch I thought had added fruitiness but did not do a side by side with my standard Verdant/New England mix (one pack each). Made a 1.5l starter and it was a volcano… I don’t like liquid yeast. I top cropped at ~50% attenuation and saved for the next batch. I top cropped a total of 4 times for a total of 5 brews with Cosmic.
I wasn’t all that impressed with any of the subsequent batches.
Tried several known hop combos. For the first 2 brews I added 2 oz Cascade in the mash, 60 [email protected] Next 2 I upped to 3 oz. Last one got 2 oz Calypso.

Interesting. On my next neipa, I'll be using a repitch from an overbuilt starter. I'll try and compare to what I remember of my last one.
 

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You serious,Clark?

I appreciate the sentiment, but as a friendly warning I should let you know that this thread was already shutdown, redacted, then reopened for engaging on this. Ask me how I know ;)
 

Ultryx

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I'm not sure if I'd want to support this level of profiteering. GM brewer's yeast? Tinkering with yeast genomes for business profits isn't really acceptable and just expresses 'look how different we are' to make money. More like 'look how irresponsible we are'. It's hijacking powerful technology developed for more important applications, like reducing disease and hunger. There is more than enough biodiversity already existing in natural/non-GM brewer's yeasts. I'm sure there are corporations out there who'd be more than happy to brush aside brewer's yeast biodiversity to sell us all one artificial strain so their streamlined supply chain stuffs shareholders silly. This goes against the ethos often expressed among the craft brewing community. That 'f*ck the big man' attitude. Are there crafty brewers among us?

Edit: I've just skimmed Scott Janish's (home brew, beer) blog on GM technology. Maybe he should stick with home brew. Unfortunately, his opinions are biased by 'experts' with conflicts of interest and blinkered by a strong desire to be 'different' and push beer beyond beer. Attempts to reinvent beer using GM technology are arrogant and little more than a form of bankruptcy.

What? It's not like genetic engineering can be limited to one single application (health industry). That's just ridiculous.
 

The M

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For those who are using Cosmic punch what has been your experience with repitches? The first batch I thought had added fruitiness but did not do a side by side with my standard Verdant/New England mix (one pack each). Made a 1.5l starter and it was a volcano… I don’t like liquid yeast. I top cropped at ~50% attenuation and saved for the next batch. I top cropped a total of 4 times for a total of 5 brews with Cosmic.
I wasn’t all that impressed with any of the subsequent batches.
Tried several known hop combos. For the first 2 brews I added 2 oz Cascade in the mash, 60 [email protected] Next 2 I upped to 3 oz. Last one got 2 oz Calypso.

I'm now with 4.gen with Cosmic Punch. I have overbuild my starters and haven't noticed any less fruitiness compared to my 1.gen batch. The latest brew which is still in FV is brewed with same grain & hop bill as my first one brewed with Cosmic Punch. I'm going to soft crash on Friday but the sample was already very clean and had that same fruit salad & Sauvignon Blanc vibe I've gotten from every batch. I noticed one thing though with the latest batch. The attenuation was 82% and previous ones have landed to 75-76%. I haven't changed anything else than hops with all these batches so it's quite interesting to get attenuation this high
 

Mousetrapbrewery

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I feel like the beer that I made is holding up way better because it was made with Cosmic rather than LA3. Those underlying fruity esters seem hold up the beer way better after the hops fade about 2.5 months in.

Having said that, I haven't done a side by side like you so maybe it's all in my head :p
Do try loading things up in the mash though. I'd be curious to see how 1oz/gal mash hop beer would come out when you do the Verdant/Cosmic split. I'd recommend splitting Saaz and Cascade for this if possible

Side note - I also haven't tried Verdant as my local shops don't carry it. How does it differ from your classic LA3?

I brewed a beer yesterday. 1/2 barrel batch with 8oz of calypso and 8oz of Saaz in the mash. No whirlpool. I used second gen of cosmic punch, the first one I did not mash hop. I haven’t seen anyone post any results with the high end of the omega recommendations so I decided to bite the bullet. The smell from the fermenter is straight pineapple juice. Never smelt a ferment like this. I’m hoping it isn’t too bitter though. I will be dry hopping with BRU-1. I don’t know how much I’ll use but probably 1lb. This is only a 5.5% session/pale ale/NEIPA. I will post updates.
 
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sweetcell

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I feel like the beer that I made is holding up way better because it was made with Cosmic rather than LA3. Those underlying fruity esters seem hold up the beer way better after the hops fade about 2.5 months in.
here to add another anecdotal story about CM beers holding up their aroma very well over time. i just kicked my last keg of CP IPA and it still had a very strong aroma, and less fading of the flavor than i expected. looking forward to doing a side-by-side with its parent, British V (OYL-011), but that brew day is in the running with at least two other brews i need to do...
 
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anecdote: i was gifted a brew day recently, but didn't have a great selection of yeast on hand so i pinged my local brewery to see if they were dumping any yeast. brewer didn't get back to me in time so i made do with various dry yeasts and a kveik. the following week the brewer writes back and tells me to drop off a sanitized jar. i do - don't want to turn down the offer, lest he not extend it next time - and he fills it with Cosmic Punch! not sure if i'm going to be able to use it - i now have a lot of hazy IPA fermenting, and i really should brew some lager while it's nice and cool in the basement... but it's neat to see that my local is hopping (!) on the CP train :D
 

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Looking to get back to some Cosmic Punch NEIPA. I have new 1/2 lb bags of Calypso, Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy and Strata. Got the Calypso for the mash and was thinking about 2 oz each of the others in dry hop (8 oz for 5g batch). Going to try skipping the hop stand this go around. Any favorite combos of these? Is a 1:1:1:1 ratio going to work or will one of them dominate?
 
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Looking to get back to some Cosmic Punch NEIPA. I have new 1/2 lb bags of Calypso, Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy and Strata. Got the Calypso for the mash and was thinking about 2 oz each of the others in dry hop (8 oz for 5g batch). Going to try skipping the hop stand this go around. Any favorite combos of these? Is a 1:1:1:1 ratio going to work or will one of them dominate?
a 1:1:1:1 mix of Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy and Strata is going to be... intense. you know how the Grateful Dead or Pink Floyd had that wall of sound? that mix will be a wall of hop flavor :) pretty much every area will be covered... i wouldn't expect anything to punch through, rather it'll be a wash of hoppy tastiness. as long as that's what you want, it'll be great. if you're looking to highlight a specific flavor (citrus? tropical? dank? etc.) then such a combo of power-hops might not be the best. your call! personally, i's cut that combo back to 2 of those hops - but that's my preference, YMMV, etc.
 

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Thanks @sweetcell Well, I don't want the taste to be all muddled, so many flavors that they clash. Which 2 should I start with? Citra:Mosaic? Galaxy:Strata??
 

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Brewed my first beer with Cosmic Punch yesterday. Did 2oz of Cascade hops in the mash, 2oz Idaho 7 whirlpool at 180F for 25 minutes, and will be dry hopping with 4oz Citra, 3.5oz Wai-iti, and 3oz Rakau.
 

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The following is straight from their website-
Experiment with mash hopping or wine grape-derived products to push even more thiols.
I just bought a packet of this yeast and was wondering if anyone has tried this?
I’m nowhere near smart enough to attempt to understand this.
What if I were to add a quart or so of grape juice to the fermenter?
Or I could throw some hops in the mash.
 

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I just brewed a test pale ale with this Friday. Mash hopped for the first time with 2 oz saaz, 2 oz Chinook, and half an ounce nugget. All stuff I had on hand that was toward the top of the list on Omega's site or Janish's article. Only an ounce of Simcoe mid boil, no whirlpool or dry hop. Hoping to see what the yeast can provide for aromatics.

One thing I'm not a fan of the cosmic punch and British V is trying to keep it in the fermenter. Even tried fermcap in the boil for the first time and it's still crawling out of my all rounder day 3 with less than 6 gallons in it. Makes it a pain when you are continuously purging your serving keg.
 
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Even tried fermcap in the boil for the first time and it's still crawling out of my all rounder day 3 with less than 6 gallons in it.
aside: i find that i have to add fermcap twice, once in the kettle and again in the fermentor. dunno if the stuff only lasts X hours, or if boiling somehow denatures is (is it even a protein?)... but in my experience, adding it to the kettle only solves problems in the kettle. needs a separate few drops for the cold side.
 

Off Balance Brewing

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aside: i find that i have to add fermcap twice, once in the kettle and again in the fermentor. dunno if the stuff only lasts X hours, or if boiling somehow denatures is (is it even a protein?)... but in my experience, adding it to the kettle only solves problems in the kettle. needs a separate few drops for the cold side.


Yeah it's funny I read the directions and it said if you put it in during the boil you didn't have to add in the fermenter. Maybe not accurate.

Any recommendation on how much to add to the fermenter? I'm usually not worried about a boil over would rather get the fermentation benefit. Also it says something about bitterness increase if you add to the fermenter. Any experience with that?
 
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