I have successfully brewed 8 good batches of extract after 2 near misses. A few ambers, porters, stouts, a wit and an IPA. The wit was a Brewer's best kit and had the steep to convert step, which, sounds to me like a partial mash? The concept of gaining more control over my beer and not just "baking a box cake" does appeal to me, and I think I have figured out the process to hold temp quite well with my current equipment. I think I can scale it up to a full batch, but may need to upgrade my equipment a bit. Possibly a electric BIAB system in my future. So my question is this: if I start BIAB, should I use my well water unadulterated to get the process down, then work on water chemistry, or should I really work on water chemistry staring with my first BIAB batch? IF I understand things right, my high pH (9.2ish) will impact overall efficiency, but what else? My yeast seems to do fine with 5 gallons of my water in extract brewing. I have hit or nearly hit FG on all my batches, and I don't do any fermentation temp control or anything. My basement is a comfy 66-68 degrees year round. Is BIAB even possible with a 9.2 pH?
Considering a foray into BIAB
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If your purpose is to make better tasting beer then the first place to start is with some control of fermentation temperature. That can be as simple as a tub of water to set the fermenter into and adding ice as necessary to maintain the correct temperature range or as complicated as you have money for.
If you purpose is to learn about the actual process of making the wort, then BIAB is a good way to start (and maybe finish). You know that your water pH is high but that doesn't tell you that your mash pH will be out of range as it will depend on the ability of the water to buffer the natural tendency of the grains to pull the pH into a reasonable range. If your current equipment has a 5 gallon pot and a way to heat 4 gallons of water to a boil, use that plus a bag (paint strainer, Swiss Voille curtain material, or a custom made bag) to make a 2 1/2 gallon batch. From that small investment (paint strainer bags at Home Depot were selling for $3.76/two bags) you will find out if you want to continue with all grain and if you want to invest more into bigger equipment to do larger batches.
If you purpose is to learn about the actual process of making the wort, then BIAB is a good way to start (and maybe finish). You know that your water pH is high but that doesn't tell you that your mash pH will be out of range as it will depend on the ability of the water to buffer the natural tendency of the grains to pull the pH into a reasonable range. If your current equipment has a 5 gallon pot and a way to heat 4 gallons of water to a boil, use that plus a bag (paint strainer, Swiss Voille curtain material, or a custom made bag) to make a 2 1/2 gallon batch. From that small investment (paint strainer bags at Home Depot were selling for $3.76/two bags) you will find out if you want to continue with all grain and if you want to invest more into bigger equipment to do larger batches.
Water chemistry aside your first batch of Biab all grain should be a brown ale or amber ale, don’t go full on stout or all pale malt until you learn more about water chemistry you may be disappointed
I started with a stout then a witbier, both sucked then i made a Sierra Nevada Tumbler clone it’s a smokey brown ale turned out fantastic since then i kept adding to my knowledge and the beers just kept getting better
I started with a stout then a witbier, both sucked then i made a Sierra Nevada Tumbler clone it’s a smokey brown ale turned out fantastic since then i kept adding to my knowledge and the beers just kept getting better
BeardedBrews
Well-Known Member
I agree on the fermentation temperature being an important consideration, but addressing your water is equally important in my opinion.
My first batches of biab turned out very mediocre. I saw an immediate improvement when I got my mash pH in the ballpark and increased the chloride and sulfate levels appropriately. I would suggest a known water (ro) and use the water chemistry primer to get a simple starting mineral addition. If you like the results then you could get a full test on your well so that you can make adjustments to that directly.
My first batches of biab turned out very mediocre. I saw an immediate improvement when I got my mash pH in the ballpark and increased the chloride and sulfate levels appropriately. I would suggest a known water (ro) and use the water chemistry primer to get a simple starting mineral addition. If you like the results then you could get a full test on your well so that you can make adjustments to that directly.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
I agree with Bearded. Some people get away fine without addressing water to start (or ever) but it may be because they have good water to begin with. If on the other hand you have water with extreme levels of something, or especially very high alkalinity, you might get some pretty unpleasant batches which could then discourage you from all grain. Having the base pH of the water doesn't help at all, we need the rest of the report. At the least I would treat for chlorine/chloramines if you're going to use tap water. Better yet, as above use RO water and the water primer for a few batches.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/
I'm on well water too and mine is very hard. However, it makes great beer. It sounds as if you have had a good experience with extracts so far. I went to a seminar with Jamil Zainasheff on home brewing last year. He said many home brewers spend way too much time fussing over water chemistry when they should be focusing on fermentation temps and yeast health. Yeah, water chem is important, especially if you're on municipal water. In my case (and maybe yours) it's not a big issue unless I make a pilsner. As stated above, I'd get firm control of fermentation temps. If you go BIAB, have the LHBS double-mill your grain. That made a huge difference in my efficiency. Now, I mill my own.
trav77
Well-Known Member
Yeah I agree as well. To me the two major improvements anyone will make (after the basics including sanitation) are ferm temp and water chem.
Your success without controlling these two things will vary depending on your tap water, beer styles, yeast strains etc. But personally I wasn't completely happy with me homebrew until I dialled both in.
Ferm temp control is high on my priority list, I have my eyes in an ink bird and one of those heated carboy wraps. I suppose a ward labs test would help me understand more of what I am getting out of my beer, and to plan for the whole chemistry aspect going forward. Also considering the distilled or RO water for initial batches.
Thanks this has been helpful
Thanks this has been helpful
You might hook up with a homebrew club near you and they might have already had their wells tested. I did that and am using R.O. water.
parrothead64
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Use bottled water from target or wallmart to get going. As many people have said, focus on fermentation temp control , yeast starters, and oxygen first.
I second the suggestion to start with small batches to learn the process for BIAB. Besides just being easier to handle overall (lower volumes of water, lighter weights to move around), it's likely that your first batch or two will not come out amazing, so you're left with less suboptimal product to drink/dispose of. I also recommend learning to use brewing software to dial in your numbers. I use Beersmith but there are a few others that you can learn about by poking around the forums. In retrospect these were probably the two most helpful things for me when I started with BIAB.
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May I recommend http://biabrewer.info/ ?
A ton of good advice here. Thanks all! I did start thinking about maybe getting some 1 gallon carboys to start small, and my current kettle is on the order of 4 or 5 gallons which I guess should be enough to get started with such small batches. Nice thing is it does well to boil water on my induction burner so temperature control for mash shouldn't be terrible.... as long as temperatures on the 5s is acceptable... i.e. 150, 155, 160, etc. Multiple small car boys would also give me the ability to do comparisons side by side with say diluted tap water vs 100% RO... more from an understanding of what really changes with different water... I can only learn so much by reading, I'm more of a learn by doing/experimentation kinda guy, so there's that.
You may
Don't get too excited trying to keep your mash temperature stable for a long period. If your grain is milled reasonably well the conversion will be over in less than half an hour. If the grain isn't milled reasonably well, find a different LHBS or get your own mill. I never add heat during the mash. Wrap the mash tun (kettle) in a coat or sleeping bag to retain heat and walk away.
I wouldn't try and rely on the temperature settings on your induction burner. It won't work well with a mash as it is not a fluid.
Accurately measure your strike temp, check your mash and then I would suggest putting the mash kettle in a prewarmed oven at lowest setting.
Accurately measure your strike temp, check your mash and then I would suggest putting the mash kettle in a prewarmed oven at lowest setting.
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You may
Biabrewer helped me a lot. The BIABacus calculator seems a little daunting at first but is actually pretty simple to use once you get some advice.
nDub
Nor(Best)Cal Native
I started using acidulated malt in my grain bill and it's helped with mash pH (plus I enjoy the tart bite it can add) and my mash efficiency has increased. But my water has very little alkalinity that it doesn't take much to drive the pH down.
You might look into it if you don't want to worry about getting too far into chemical additions. Might be enough to get your mash pH down.
Good luck!
You might look into it if you don't want to worry about getting too far into chemical additions. Might be enough to get your mash pH down.
Good luck!
So I haven't yet gotten a full water profile, but I did brew a partial mash this weekend. I also remembered I had some spa test strips which measure pH, alkalinity and calcium hardness. It's not super accurate but my alkalinity is around 100 ppm, calcium less than 100, and pH near 9 as reported earlier. I measured again after mash and after boil I think, unfortunately the ingested beer prevented me from recording either but I do recall the pH had gone way down, my test strips only go down to 6.2 and the color was lighter than that, not sure if that was after ,mash or after boil. I don't recall the other numbers changing much. That being said I am not too scared to go all grain at this point.
Too many unknowns in that water. Either get it tested and go from there, or use bottled or RO water and add salts. Chickypad linked a great water primer that will get you off and running.
Some people who had good results with extract brewing venture into AG and find their brews are kind of "meh" and it discourages them. AG offers much more flexibility but also throws some curveballs at you if you're not careful. Water chem / mash pH is too important to ignore. The pH test strips are all but useless. A good pH meter will serve you better, but in the meantime you can get a fairly decent prediction of your mash pH by using something like Brew 'n Water (free spreadsheet).
Some people who had good results with extract brewing venture into AG and find their brews are kind of "meh" and it discourages them. AG offers much more flexibility but also throws some curveballs at you if you're not careful. Water chem / mash pH is too important to ignore. The pH test strips are all but useless. A good pH meter will serve you better, but in the meantime you can get a fairly decent prediction of your mash pH by using something like Brew 'n Water (free spreadsheet).
Yes I am well aware I should get the ward labs test that most everyone uses here... It was really just a though of "well shoot I can do something with grain with my water".. also forgot to mention I was .001 above target OG. So I think there is hope for me making great beer one day. It is exciting to me honestly, and with as well as brew day went, it really makes me want to take that next step
BeardedBrews
Well-Known Member
I think you're well on your way to good beer. Don't forget, this is a hobby. If you're having fun on a brew day and end up with something you can drink or maybe even share with friends, it sounds like a win to me!
The suggestions in this thread are things you can look at if you don't feel like you're getting the product that you hoped for, they certainly aren't requirements to make beer.
The one thing I'd strongly suggest starting as soon as possible is taking good notes. You can print off brew day sheets from the web, or buy a printed log book, or use Brewersfriend.com for free. Having the notes to look back on from batch to batch is a huge help, even if most of the notes are drunken ramblings. From my brew log last weekend "Spilled 1 gallon of wort on the garage floor, remember not to try to pour out of a gummed up basket next time!"
Setting aside what your well water is like, if you just use distilled or RO water from the store, you can then adjust it to your liking.
My own city water is drawn from a well about 1100 feet down, and it's pretty hard. The rule of thumb is that if you cut it by 1/4 with RO water it's OK for a Stout, cut by 1/2 w/ RO water it's OK for a Porter, cut by 3/4 w/ RO water it's ok for lighter beers. But I wasn't willing to go by some rule of thumb, so I had a Ward's report done on my water.
I just use a water spreadsheet and add what it tells me, taking into account the acidity of the grain (dark grain is more acidic), the water I am using, and various targets.
I just made an Amber yesterday; I used 7.25 gallons of strike water. Of that, 1 gallon was my raw tap water (not softened), 6.25 gallons was RO water.
I added 5 grams of Calcium Chloride (CACL2), 5 grams of Epsom Salts (MgSO4), and 3 ml of lactic acid. Also 1/2 of a campden tablet. Forecast a pH of 5.45, but that's always a bit high; measured pH of 5.36.
That actually works fairly well for a lot of brews, though I rarely do porters and stouts. But you need something to help you take into account the grains you're using, because they're part of the equation.
I use the EZWater spreadsheet (http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/) as it's a one-page spreadsheet and prints out for reference. Some also use Brunwater spreadsheet. I have that too, but I don't find it as easy and intuitive as EZWater. Maybe someday I'll figure it out. There are many who are devotees of Brunwater, and Martin Brungard posts here a lot, he's incredibly helpful as a water resource.
My own city water is drawn from a well about 1100 feet down, and it's pretty hard. The rule of thumb is that if you cut it by 1/4 with RO water it's OK for a Stout, cut by 1/2 w/ RO water it's OK for a Porter, cut by 3/4 w/ RO water it's ok for lighter beers. But I wasn't willing to go by some rule of thumb, so I had a Ward's report done on my water.
I just use a water spreadsheet and add what it tells me, taking into account the acidity of the grain (dark grain is more acidic), the water I am using, and various targets.
I just made an Amber yesterday; I used 7.25 gallons of strike water. Of that, 1 gallon was my raw tap water (not softened), 6.25 gallons was RO water.
I added 5 grams of Calcium Chloride (CACL2), 5 grams of Epsom Salts (MgSO4), and 3 ml of lactic acid. Also 1/2 of a campden tablet. Forecast a pH of 5.45, but that's always a bit high; measured pH of 5.36.
That actually works fairly well for a lot of brews, though I rarely do porters and stouts. But you need something to help you take into account the grains you're using, because they're part of the equation.
I use the EZWater spreadsheet (http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/) as it's a one-page spreadsheet and prints out for reference. Some also use Brunwater spreadsheet. I have that too, but I don't find it as easy and intuitive as EZWater. Maybe someday I'll figure it out.
There are many who are devotees of Brunwater, and Martin Brungard posts here a lot, he's incredibly helpful as a water resource.Bearded, I certainly am not forgetting this is a hobby. I am super happy with 8 of my first 10 extract kits. My friends and I enjoy my brew and that's good enough for me. I am not trying to start a brewery here, but as with most of my hobbies, I try to continually improve. I did take a lot of notes on this batch, as far as timings, temperatures, etc.. just didn't keep notes on the water quality throughout the batch, probably because my water parameter measurement techniques were neither accurate nor precise. I knew my water pH was high, from a test a while back [from Lowes] and I was curious about the range since I had the hot tub strips laying around... It's not like I was gonna ru out and buy them for this.
I do know that after my boil, I was down .75 gallons from target (boil started at 3.5 gallons, and I pre measured an additional 2.5 gallons to top off, and had to add .75 gallons to reach my final fermenter volume of 5.5 gallons. Next time I will pre measure 3.25 additional gallons. Notes like that certainly help. I also boil my top off water, so I didn't account for evaporation from either the brew kettle or the top off pot.
I do know that after my boil, I was down .75 gallons from target (boil started at 3.5 gallons, and I pre measured an additional 2.5 gallons to top off, and had to add .75 gallons to reach my final fermenter volume of 5.5 gallons. Next time I will pre measure 3.25 additional gallons. Notes like that certainly help. I also boil my top off water, so I didn't account for evaporation from either the brew kettle or the top off pot.
