Cloudy Rye IPA - BIAB

[TBaGZ]

Has anyone ever done a rye beer with BIAB? I did one and have had it in the keg on gas for a little over a month now and it is still cloudy as hell. Not only is this my first rye beer, this is the first beer I kegged. I have never had a beer this cloudy in a bottle before, and I highly doubt it has anything to do with being kegged, so I am going with it being from the rye. It has deffiently cleared a bit over the last couple weeks, but I wouldn't say it is a clear beer. What do you guys think? Rye making it overly cloudy?

It is EdWort's recipe if it matters.

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

My rye attempts never cleared, even with cold crash and gelatin. I've seen other peoples get clear, mine always murky.

Its something to do with the proteins in Rye if I remember correctly.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Multiple rye ipas with biab and they were all hazy but they were all delicious

 

[TBaGZ]

Hazy like that?

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Hazy like that?

Yep just like that. I dont mind the haze it doesnt effect flavor in the least

 

[TBaGZ]

No, the only thing effecting the flavor is that it's a little boozy.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

No, the only thing effecting the flavor is that it's a little boozy.

What hops did you use?

 

[TBaGZ]

Chinook

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Chinook

All Chinook? I love amarillo in my rye ipas. I bitter with Columbus and use Amarillo and a little Cascade for flavor/aroma additions then dry hop with all 3. I love that combo against the spiciness of the rye. I need to brew another soon definitely a favorite

 

[TBaGZ]

Yeah, all chinook except for a FWH of tettnanger. I tried EdWort's recipe.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

Yeah, all chinook except for a FWH of tettnanger. I tried EdWort's recipe.

I'll have to look that up I'm a big fan of rye ipa

 

[TBaGZ]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/bee-cave-brewery-rye-ipa-82451/

 

[Brewzologist]

I've brewed Denny Conn's Rye IPA multiple times with BIAB and it comes out clear. I use 1/2 tab whirlfloc in the boil. It sits for 3 weeks in the primary, then I dry hop in a secondary for two weeks, keg and force carb. But I would certainly still drink it with a little haze anytime!

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I've brewed Denny Conn's Rye IPA multiple times with BIAB and it comes out clear. I use 1/2 tab whirlfloc in the boil. It sits for 3 weeks in the primary, then I dry hop in a secondary for two weeks, keg and force carb. But I would certainly still drink it with a little haze anytime!

I have used whirfloc tabs in mine many times and its never clear. I like to use both rye and flaked rye in mine it has quite a bit more hops than either denny's or the bee cave rye ipa. I'm going to make it this week with crystal rye which I have never used.

 

[Seven]

I also made Denny's Wry Smile Rye IPA with BIAB and it was very clear after a month or so in the keg.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I also made Denny's Wry Smile Rye IPA with BIAB and it was very clear after a month or so in the keg.

Maybe thats the problem with mine its drank in less than a month lol

 

[1MadScientist]

I wonder, since SteveCO2 and Seven's are coming out clear, if they are doing a slow ramp up to mash out while stirring? I also recommend a 90 mins. mash time for all BIAB.

In BIAB, ramping up to a mashout temperture has to do with accessing and converting the starches that dont gelatinise at standard mash temperatures.

Here's what I said in another topic;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/w...do-we-need-all-433883/index3.html#post5593641
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/w...do-we-need-all-433883/index3.html#post5603246


BIAB lets through more "stuff" to the kettle, some of the particles will be ungelatinised starches. Those starches will gelatinise in the kettle as it heats up and will have no enzymes to convert them, so you risk starch haze in the final product. Very high L:G ratios in BIAB makes it particularly easy to ramp up and stir. A stirred ramp up, about 10 mins extra, to mashout temperatures - both gelatinises the "stubborn" starches and gives the remaining (mostly alpha amylase) enzymes a chance to convert them to sugars (most likely dextrins) So, you get a little extra efficiency, you safegaurd against a potential starch haze issue, and you add back a small amount of body to the beer.

I will just add to what I said above; Generally, I am speaking of a pure BIAB (full volume mashing) or almost a full volume, somewhere around 2 - 2.33 qt/lb and above. I like to max out my keggle too, like most of us. I end up withholding up to 15% of the water from the mash and add it in as a pre-boil dilution. So at these high L:G ratios, slowly heating and stirring to a mash out temp, does generally give you two more points in efficiency.

So no - a mashout isn't strictly necessary in BIAB, but in general it is a useful addition to the technique, and adds only 10 mins extra to the total time of your brewday for a 5 gallon batch and 20 mins. more for a ten. Its not needed, but it is a good brewing practise.

Off Topic: Extending a mash from 60 mins. to 90 mins. generally gets 2 more points in efficiency too.

 

[Milan37]

A stirred ramp up, about 10 mins extra, to mashout temperatures - both gelatinises the "stubborn" starches and gives the remaining (mostly alpha amylase) enzymes a chance to convert them to sugars (most likely dextrins) So, you get a little extra efficiency, you safegaurd against a potential starch haze issue, and you add back a small amount of body to the beer.

I will just add to what I said above; Generally, I am speaking of a pure BIAB (full volume mashing) or almost a full volume, somewhere around 2 - 2.33 qt/lb and above. I like to max out my keggle too, like most of us. I end up withholding up to 15% of the water from the mash and add it in as a pre-boil dilution. So at these high L:G ratios, slowly heating and stirring to a mash out temp, does generally give you two more points in efficiency.

So no - a mashout isn't strictly necessary in BIAB, but in general it is a useful addition to the technique, and adds only 10 mins extra to the total time of your brewday for a 5 gallon batch and 20 mins. more for a ten. Its not needed, but it is a good brewing practise.
.

Just curious, do you have any reference for this information? I ask because I never do a mash out and I've had both very clear beers and very good efficiency. I'd like to learn more because the above doesn't match my (admittedly anecdotal, n=1) experience.

Edited: On this topic I'd note that I've found the biggest difference-maker (for me) with clarity is an extended primary.

 

[1MadScientist]

Just curious, do you have any reference for this information? I ask because I never do a mash out and I've had both very clear beers and very good efficiency. I'd like to learn more because the above doesn't match my (admittedly anecdotal, n=1) experience.

Edited: On this topic I'd note that I've found the biggest difference-maker (for me) with clarity is an extended primary.

This is a very good read from Kai Troester supporting a thin mash of 5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb. (the mash thickness section and the conclusion) ; http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

This supports the mash out I discribed above; http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4650

... and a quote from there by 'Thirsty Boy' ; "After your mash. you need to give things a good stir, and keep on stirring while you add heat and bring the whole mash up to Mash Out temp. In traditional brewing mash out isn't really necessary, but in BIAB its really quite important for efficiency. You can skip it, but you will probably lose close to 5 points of efficiency."

So, I looked over my last 5 brews and found that I was wrong, I do average 4 points in efficiency by doing this, I have gotten 5 and 6 points more too!

My conclusion is: I get 2 points more for extending a mash from 60 mins. to 90 mins. and another 4 points for a proper mash out.


3/16/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

 

[Milan37]

Thanks, interesting stuff. I'm not seeing the connection, but thanks for the links.

On the post by "Thirsty Boy" I would dispute his (and by extension, your) claims on the effect of a mash-out on efficiency based on my personal experience. I'd also note that he warns to keep the last half-inch of the bag in contact with the wort when draining the bag to avoid HSA--so while it's a good post I think there is some misinformation in there as well. Take it with a grain of salt, and do what works for you (of course).

 

[Brewzologist]

I wonder, since SteveCO2 and Seven's are coming out clear, if they are doing a slow ramp up to mash out while stirring? I also recommend a 90 mins. mash time for all BIAB.

I do full volume BIAB with a 60 minute mash for all boils, unless I'm using pilsner malt, and then I go to a 90 minute boil to reduce DMS. I use an iodine test for starch conversion, and have no problem reaching a 75% mash efficiency. I can't say I do a slow ramp up to mash-out as I usually crank up the propane burner to get to 168-170 degrees as fast as I can, and then let it sit for 10 minutes. But I do "stir" during mash-out by lifting and dunking the bag as it heats up and then during the 10 minute mash-out. Hope this helps your research.

 

[ong]

My rye beers (only a lb or two of rye) have been pretty clear. I BIAB with no mashout. If anything I just get a little hops hazing from dry hopping and keg hopping.

 

[RM-MN]

This is a very good read from Kai Troester supporting a thin mash of 5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb. (the mash thickness section and the conclusion) ; http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

This supports the mash out I discribed above; http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4650

... and a quote from there by 'Thirsty Boy' ; "After your mash. you need to give things a good stir, and keep on stirring while you add heat and bring the whole mash up to Mash Out temp. In traditional brewing mash out isn't really necessary, but in BIAB its really quite important for efficiency. You can skip it, but you will probably lose close to 5 points of efficiency."

So, I looked over my last 5 brews and found that I was wrong, I do average 4 points in efficiency by doing this, I have gotten 5 and 6 points more too!

My conclusion is: I get 2 points more for extending a mash from 60 mins. to 90 mins. and another 4 points for a proper mash out.


3/16/2013 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

I think that quote from Thirsty Boy is total BS. Since I normally get ~80% efficiency with no mash out and no sparge, and upwards of 85% with a cold water sparge, if I could gain much by doing a mash out I could be approaching 100% efficiency. Maybe I should be extending my mash time from 30 minutes to 90 minutes too. That should definitely put me over 100%.

Keeping the bag partially submerged to avoid HSA is worthless too. Hot side aeration has been debunked at least on the homebrew level. If hot side aeration was so critical, why didn't is show up when I poured boiling wort into my fermenter bucket from 3 feet above.

 

[Weezy]

The only point to a mash out is to stop enzymatic conversion, which can lead to extra unfermentables (proteins, dextrins) due to unnecessary extended mash times. Simple sugars will convert to longer chain sugars and unfermentables after all. BIAB is the process least at risk of these problems since it is the quickest to go from mash to boil (where ramping to boiling is, in effect, everyone's mash out).

A lot of stirring and gelatinizing solids is more likely boosting *mash* efficiency by forcing unfermentables through the bag and into the pot. Your mash efficiency may be high, but your FG is likely higher as a result too.

 

[Brewzologist]

Since I'm in the middle of Palmer/Kaminski's water book, I'll point out another thing I do that may help me to not have haze in my beers; I use RO water and then AJ's water primer to treat my water. I'm learning that proper mash pH and calcium additions help reduce haze. I'm not checking my pH with a meter yet, but the primer may be helping my results. All I can say is my Denny's Rye IPA brewed using BIAB is fantastic; clear as a bell, tastes great, and leaves a wonderful lace on the glass too. Hope this helps!

Link to AJ's water primer: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/