Rye Stout, anyone?

[Immocles]

So, I enjoy rye beers. I make a decent rye pale ale, and a really solid rye lager. There's not a ton of rye beers out there commercially. Found summit frost line rye IPA last spring and its outstanding. But one thing I never considered was a rye stout, until I found this:

Repo Man®

It's a phenomenal beer. I'm not looking to recreate it, because it appears I can buy it locally (one shop suddenly has a few choices from that brewery), but I would like to just make a nice tasty rye stout.

Anyone have any experience in brewing one? On the site, they state they use 20%, which is sort of that border of adding rye that few people cross, but I'm debating pushing that limit into the 40s with both malt and flaked rye. My lager uses 20%. My rye IPA is just under 30 and my my pale ale sits in the teens. Anyone get into that range of 40-50? I biab, and draining it sucks, but I can deal with it since the grain bill is smaller (3g batch, less than 8lb total).

This is where my recipe is sitting at the moment. It looks nice and safe. But I'd like to go 50/50 on the 2row/rye, which bumps it to 40% + flaked rye. At what point do things go squirrelly? Even debated throwing in some crystal rye, but I think that beautiful flavor would get covered up by the roast anyways.

I hate to call anyone out, but @dmtaylor I have seen you mention rye in several other posts. And you seem like you'd be crazy enough to dabble with high quantities.

 

[AlexKay]

I made a ryewine:

Here

TL; DR: it had just over 50% rye and a 1.144 OG, and it tasted great but poured like motor oil.

Lower gravity beers I’ve made (roggenbiers, several) with ~50% rye and gravities of 1.040 or so have been very nice. I’ve done this with all flaked rye, all rye malt, and in between. My expectation would be that rye malt gives less viscosity, but I don’t know that things actually came out that way.

Crystal rye is wonderful stuff. I’d add it in there! And maybe some chocolate rye. I make a porter with both, plus flaked rye, and Phoenix hops, that tastes like drinking Mexican hot chocolate, just cold and bubbly and alcoholic.

The recipe looks good; I don’t see any problem cranking rye up past 50%. Don’t know what the flaked barley is going to do for you, though.

 

[Immocles]

Good info, thank you. OG I’m shooting for us about 1.063 or so. So hopefully I’d avoid that motor oil pour.

Completely agree on the crystal and chocolate rye. I love both but I’m out of the chocolate until my next grain purchase and that’s at least a few months out. The crystal still came out in a porter? Maybe I will consider adding some, after all.

Oh, and the flaked barley is there because I’m weird about liquidating resources and I really just want to burn up that last 4oz in the bag.

Edit:
Funny story, I checked out the thread you linked and had already subbed to it back when it was active.

 

[dmtaylor]

I hate to call anyone out, but @dmtaylor I have seen you mention rye in several other posts. And you seem like you'd be crazy enough to dabble with high quantities.

You mean like this? ("Only" 6.3% though, not a high quantity here.) This recipe scored a silver medal in competition as an "Oatmeal Stout"... with zero oats!

I think 20-40% rye in a stout would be very tasty indeed.

Just don't expect "spiciness" from the rye. That's not what it does at all. What rye does is add viscosity and earthiness, and the creamiest head you've ever witnessed on this planet.

I've also brewed a traditional roggenbier last year with 42% rye. It was great. I want to brew it again soon.

 

[Immocles]

I think 20-40% rye in a stout would be very tasty indeed.

Just don't expect "spiciness" from the rye. That's not what it does at all. What rye does is add viscosity and earthiness, and the creamiest head you've ever witnessed on this planet.

Based on you and @AlexKay I might have to boost that rye malt up to a higher degree. Brewing with rye always gets me excited about the next brew day, which is hopefully only a couple weeks away. Maybe I'm mixing up rye malt vs flaked rye a little bit.

I agree with the spicy vs earthy. Ive never completely understood why rye is described the way it is, because it never comes close to that spicy flavor. I've always found myself describing it as either earthy or slightly anise/black licorice type flavor. And you're definitely correct on the foamy head. For a time, I had been adding 5% rye malt to my pale ales just for that effect.

SIdenote: I know you have a fantastic spreadsheet about yeasts, and I'm surprised to see you use muntons. Ive only ever used/seen that once and it was included in the basic starter kit that I had used. I always assumed it was a sort of fool proof, basic boring type yeast, but I never really looked into it. Do you use it often?

 

[dmtaylor]

SIdenote: I know you have a fantastic spreadsheet about yeasts, and I'm surprised to see you use muntons. Ive only ever used/seen that once and it was included in the basic starter kit that I had used. I always assumed it was a sort of fool proof, basic boring type yeast, but I never really looked into it. Do you use it often?

I used it 25 years ago and wanted to try it again because it was dirt-cheap. I think it was $1.99. Try finding any yeast that cheap anymore. It turned out good. Very estery. Initially I didn't think I liked it. But as the beer mellowed out after a few weeks, it turned out great. It is a low attenuator, probably about the same as Windsor -- only 57% on that batch above! So you need to keep it in mind, the FG is going to be really high and ABV really low, if you want to try it. But yeah, I'd use it again, wherever you might consider using Windsor or its liquid equivalent Wyeast 1099.

 

[AlexKay]

Going over my notes, I have a few rye porters (40% flaked and chocolate), a few roggenbiers (55% flaked, chocolate, and crystal), a roggenbock (50% flaked, chocolate, and crystal), and a rye schwarzbier in the fermenter right now (80% malt and chocolate). I'm pretty happy with the recipes and the amount of rye in them. The only one I sent to competition was the roggenbock, which didn't score well because the judges couldn't taste the rye (at 50%!)

 

[Miraculix]

@Protos led me to the beauty of stronger rye kveiks. The one I brewed had about 30% rye or more, if I remember correctly. With that much rye, a beta glucan step is needed. Otherwise your beer will end up like syrup, and that's not nice. Otherwise I have not much to contribute but really do a long beta glucan rest during the mash.

Rye can be a nice addition, but it also brings it's own flavour, especially above 20%. I used chocolate rye, crystal rye and rye malt in the kveik beer and of still is a really good beer. Very special, very unique taste but I'm glad I brewed it. Above seven % abv and only about 20 ibus but it really works well this way.

 

[dmtaylor]

The only one I sent to competition was the roggenbock, which didn't score well because the judges couldn't taste the rye (at 50%!)

Most Americans have no idea what rye tastes like.

 

[AlexKay]

@Protos led me to the beauty of stronger rye kveiks. The one I brewed had about 30% rye or more, if I remember correctly. With that much rye, a beta glucan step is needed. Otherwise your beer will end up like syrup, and that's not nice. Otherwise I have not much to contribute but really do a long beta glucan rest during the mash.

Rye is actually pretty low in beta glucans, lower than barley. It's high in arabinoxylans. Some quick Googling tells me that malt may contain xylanases, but that there's mixed evidence for them being active in the mash.

 

[Miraculix]

Rye is actually pretty low in beta glucans, lower than barley. It's high in arabinoxylans. Some quick Googling tells me that malt may contain xylanases, but that there's mixed evidence for them being active in the mash.

Might be true, but the important thing is that rye turns beer into syrup and a 30 min beta glucan rest solves this issue.

 

[Steveruch]

I used it 25 years ago and wanted to try it again because it was dirt-cheap. I think it was $1.99. Try finding any yeast that cheap anymore. It turned out good. Very estery. Initially I didn't think I liked it. But as the beer mellowed out after a few weeks, it turned out great. It is a low attenuator, probably about the same as Windsor -- only 57% on that batch above! So you need to keep it in mind, the FG is going to be really high and ABV really low, if you want to try it. But yeah, I'd use it again, wherever you might consider using Windsor or its liquid equivalent Wyeast 1099.

I'm a big Muntons fan. I got great attenuation on this batch.

 

[Immocles]

Might be true, but the important thing is that rye turns beer into syrup and a 30 min beta glucan rest solves this issue.

Interesting. I've only ever really done single infusion mashes and most at full volume. I'd like to keep doing that as much as possible. I've probably been lucky thus far as I haven't had syrupy situations in my other rye brews, but I bet I havent crossed that line yet. Maybe I'm better off on the safe side for now.

I used it 25 years ago and wanted to try it again because it was dirt-cheap. I think it was $1.99. Try finding any yeast that cheap anymore. It turned out good. Very estery. Initially I didn't think I liked it. But as the beer mellowed out after a few weeks, it turned out great. It is a low attenuator, probably about the same as Windsor -- only 57% on that batch above! So you need to keep it in mind, the FG is going to be really high and ABV really low, if you want to try it. But yeah, I'd use it again, wherever you might consider using Windsor or its liquid equivalent Wyeast 1099.

I might have to remember to look for that in the future. I use Windsor in nearly all of my dark ales, so I have a few packets to use up first.

 

[lumpher]

1 of the best beers I ever made was a Rye-rish Red. I was following a recipe I found in the LHBS, and it called for 30% Vienna. They didn't have Vienna in stock at the time, so I replaced it with Rye. Not usually a fan of Rye, but it came out really good. Been chasing that recipe ever since...

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting. I've only ever really done single infusion mashes and most at full volume. I'd like to keep doing that as much as possible. I've probably been lucky thus far as I haven't had syrupy situations in my other rye brews, but I bet I havent crossed that line yet. Maybe I'm better off on the safe side for now.


I might have to remember to look for that in the future. I use Windsor in nearly all of my dark ales, so I have a few packets to use up first.

Full Volume can be easily tweaked towards multiple steps, just use a calculator like brewers friend infusion calculator and you are good. You start with a specific amount of water with a specific temperature and then top up with a specific amount of boilng water to reach the desired temperature steps.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm a big Muntons fan. I got great attenuation on this batch.

I still have to try this yeast.....

 

[Immocles]

Full Volume can be easily tweaked towards multiple steps, just use a calculator like brewers friend infusion calculator and you are good. You start with a specific amount of water with a specific temperature and then top up with a specific amount of boilng water to reach the desired temperature steps.

It's something I looked into a couple years ago when I started making lagers, but was too timid to actually try. It might be time to give it a shot sometime this year though. Perhaps not on this stout, but I should be considering steps more often when I brew some lagers and hefeweizens.

 

[Protos]

I'm drinking right now my 8.5% ABV Rye Wine, aged for 8 months. A very good beer.
84% Rye total, zero Barley (62% Malted Rye, 14% Rye Crystal, 8% Fermented Rye which is what they use for Sahti in Finland, 14% Demerara Sugar, 2% Blackstrap Molasses).
I didn't fiddle much with low-temp rests: just 15 minutes at Beta-Glucanase rest and 15 at Proteinase rest, then an hour for B-Amylase and 45' for A-Amylase.

Not even a hint of oil or syrup. A nice silky heavy-bodied frothy beer, sweetish (28 IBU) and strong. In terms of viscosity, it doesn't differ much from any chewy Barley Wine. The key is the liberal use of sugar. It thinned the naturally viscous wort to where it's just right.

The beer could have had a great educational value against the myth of the proverbial "Rye Spicyness" (wainly anticipated by many in beers with any amount of Rye in the grist). Rye isn't spicy at all (Caravay seed in the Rye bread is, but we're talking about brewing, not baking). If anything, Rye imparts very little flavour of its own, certainly less than Barley. It contributes rather in terms of body and mouthfeel than flavour.

Rye is not unlike the fin in the Shark Fin Soup: the actual shark fin has no taste of its own, it imparts nothing more than a very peculiar softly-crunchy texture to the meal, but the texture is unique and this makes the fin a rare, expensive and much sought after ingredient.