Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[WortMonger]

Remember, the pressure at the beginning is just to keep a positive pressure in the fermenter and the little bit extra is to keep the krausen down a bit. Too much and the yeast struggle. I think 7-10 psi is the sweet spot. Towards the end during carbonation, there is a ton of yeast working on not so much sugar so the higher psi is fine. It's the same as if you were bottle conditioning, only you are not having to add anything. I raise my temperature at the carbonation time to also do a diacetyl rest to clean up anything that might have been made during primary. Take the temperature raise in mind when you are trying to get your wanted CO2 volume for carbonation. It's all about the numbers. That way when you crash cool you should be at the lower psi that you want. If you are over, simply release any extra during that cold period.


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[pickles]

Wortmonger - I didn't recall reading that you do a d-rest in the wiki. Whats your preferred ferm schedule with an ale yeast nowadays?

 

[haeffnkr]

Hey Guys,

I am hoping these new "couplers" will make me better beer... hopefully it was not a waste of money.
With the only thing in the beer but the dip tube and being able to pull off the gas side and wash/sanitize it all easier I hope to fend off any nasties that might be stuck in the coupler/spear.

Also, even though I got the hang of the sanke spring clips and could install/remove them in seconds... WOW using a tri clamp is so easy.

Comments welcome

Beer had a bubbler in it and was rolling so I installed this last night and had 5 pounds of pressure this morning. I will crank it up tonight.

thanks Kevin

 

[WortMonger]

I don't think I did a d-rest back when I wrote that so many years ago. I bump the temp to get the yeast to work a little more at the end now. It's just a precaution I take to make sure and I think it helps out so I just made it mandatory in my system. Ales are usually a couple days at primary then I bump up temp and pressure. I don't think I have ever gone over a week total on an ale before I crash for a week and then transfer. I don't brew high abv so there isn't a lot for the yeast to do. Kolsch is up next! Can't wait. Simple SMaSH weyermann pilsner and tettnanger. I'm going to toast a pound slightly just for a little more complexity.


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[pickles]

Do you put the spunding valve on from the moment you pitch yeast or wait? You must with that quick turnaround.

 

[WortMonger]

Yes, the valve is on from the moment I seal the keg up after filling.


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[jimyson]

Ok, how are you all handling dry hopping?

I'm hitting 50% att right now and would like to drop some hops in for my DH schedule. It's currently sitting at 10 psi. Do I need to slowly decompress, DH, then ramp back up?

 

[grathan]

I had a thought about dry hopping. WOuldn't work in a sanke but perhaps a brewhemoth.

A cup held in place with magnets inside the fermenter that you pull the magnet away when you want the cup to drop.

 

[jimyson]

I guess my main concern is depressurizing the keg...can it be done too fast that I make the yeast implode? I'm not too worried about anything else really.

 

[pickles]

Depressurize over a few minutes and everything will be fine.

As to dry hopping - I've done it in my brewhemoth and it worked fine. However, the beauty of this technique is that the beer will never touch O2 if you plan things right. I now dry hop in cornies. I place the hops in a clean cornie then purge with co2, hook up my spunding valve to the gas in of the cornie and counter pressure fill it. I use a bathroom scale tared to the weight of the cornie, hops, and spunding valve; I fill til the keg weighs 38lbs. I usually leave the hops in until the keg kicks, but if I wanted to I could push the beer to another purged cornie or back to the purged fermenter after dry hop is complete.

 

[jimyson]

Great technique pickles. I think I will try this instead.


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[thefost]

Ok guys I could really use some help. I've had a leak in my spunding valve since the beginning and I would really like to figure out how to open up and clean it.

Its been referenced that its easy and you just open one screw and you can clean it. I'm not seeing any such screw and I have the recommended mcmaster model. Could you guys help me figure out how to dissasemble this thing? Here's some pics for reference

 

[grathan]

Where is the leak? It looks like the round part comes off when you loosen the screws on the square part. You might bend the retaining washer, but you should be able to get it fairly flat again with a slight tap of a hammer.

 

[thefost]

Where is the leak? It looks like the round part comes off when you loosen the screws on the square part. You might bend the retaining washer, but you should be able to get it fairly flat again with a slight tap of a hammer.

No idea where the leak is, I imagine its coming from the air out port.

There are no screws on the square part, it's just empty holes.

 

[jimyson]

You may want to try isolating components from a pressurized tank so you can essentially remove certain items from the "potential" list.

 

[thefost]

You may want to try isolating components from a pressurized tank so you can essentially remove certain items from the "potential" list.

I've reduced the parts as much as I can without having to buy more things. I'm pretty sure at this point its the relief valve, and either way it needs to be opened and cleaned.

 

[Flomaster]

Anyone bought a pressure relief from amazon I see a lot on there cheaper than the McMasterCar one.


Control Devices CR Series Brass Pressure Relief Valve, 0-100 psi Adjustable Pressure Range, 1/4" Male NPT https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007GDY3CU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[grathan]

For the price I've got 2 of those. Gonna isolate each with a ball valve as wortmonger suggested and have 2 set pressures to choose from without adjusting dials.

Haven't used them yet because I'm waiting for my tig welding skills to handle not burning a hole in a $24 thermowell, but now that I think of it, I could probably just make another thermowell even if I do for probably $2.

 

[pickles]

I've used that style of regulator and it isn't very reliable. Mine constantly leaked. The balks plastic one is well worth the money.

 

[grathan]

No idea where the leak is, I imagine its coming from the air out port.

There are no screws on the square part, it's just empty holes.

What about the stem? Can you take that apart. That washer looks like it comes out..

 

[acidrain]

FWIW, I added thermo wells and wish I hadn't. Taping the sensor to the outside with a bit of insulation is way less cyclic.

 

[haeffnkr]

Have you tried a pressure washer? Lye?
If none of those work, bail on that keg and get a new one. Once you have a good clean keg, clean it immediately after each use and it will be very easy to clean.
I use a 2' TC cap drilled and tapped to accept a compression coupler for the racking cane and a NPT to accept a T which has a Gas-in post and an adjustable PRV.
Works great, and I would not change a thing.

Need some help please -

I took your advice and bailed on the problem keg and found a different one.
Now the fun really starts-

I have 3 sanke fermenter kegs in rotation. I have been lately putting about 8 gallons of boiling water with about 8 oz of pbw in the water, putting this in the keg, sealed up with a TC and butt cap and let it sit, roll around, flip it every morning and night until I need to get it ready for the next brew... maybe a week or 2 the solution will be in the keg.
I then rinse out the keg with water and then put in a 1/2 gallon of starsan and roll that around in the keg, then fill with wort.....
Before I fill them I use a lighted inspection mirror and saw no gunk/krausen/etc.
I have spray bottles of starsan and always spray spray spray whatever is needed.

I have also switched over to all TC fermenter kits trying to avoid cleaning/infection issues. Re did all the hoses and connections.

The first keg I have tried this with has the same, all be it slight, sour infection, the beer wont clear, has a the smell of the same infection I keep passing around. This is in a Munich Helles, so the infection is not hard to spot.
I used brand new yeast, re did all the liquid hose connection and cleaned them well. Re did the gas hoses also.

Now so far... I have beer in the other 2 kegs that will be racked into cornys this week but so far the samples do not have the infection that I can taste... but of course the infection is easier to tasted as the beer clears up.

I saved the yeast off this batch and tasted the beer that settle out of it, it too taste like the corny keg beer, so there fore the infection started in the keg, or earlier in the process... but I have never had this issue when using carboys... - and actually have some Kolsch in a carboy I will taste soon... to be sure this problem is only related to sanke keg(s)

So do I swap out this keg also? If the keg is clean can it be holding an infection?
What else can I do to clean the kegs better?
How can anything survive boiling PBW that is actually vacuum sealed?

Can an infection be spread by the PRV?

Any help would be appreciated
thanks Kevin

 

[WortMonger]

FWIW, I added thermo wells and wish I hadn't. Taping the sensor to the outside with a bit of insulation is way less cyclic.

Yep, and using the stuff that comes with the keg is easier and cheaper too. I did this technique for an easier process for me, not any scientific brewing things or for a coolness factor in brewing over others. I will stick to my simple everything else and focus on making the spunding setup the focus of money spending and gadgetry. These cool attachments are just that, cool. The basic keg hardware and simplicity works!

 

[WortMonger]

Need some help please -
Can an infection be spread by the PRV?

Any help would be appreciated
thanks Kevin

Your cleaning regiment sounds good so I am puzzled. The quick answer to this question is: if, you can't clean out the PRV well and humidity from fermentation is able to possibly go back into the fermentor... then yes. This was a concern of mine early on and so I use a water filter housing for my spunding setup. Then, all I have is tubing leaving the fermentor to worry about cleaning and it is impossible for anything to get back into the fermentor. Beer out-gassing is incredibly sticky so I have tried to minimize that in my spunding valve or PRV as much as is possible, yet it still gets sticky. That is all I can think of to help you out. Some use a whole other keg as I do the water filter housing.

 

[haeffnkr]

Your cleaning regiment sounds good so I am puzzled. The quick answer to this question is: if, you can't clean out the PRV well and humidity from fermentation is able to possibly go back into the fermentor... then yes. This was a concern of mine early on and so I use a water filter housing for my spunding setup. Then, all I have is tubing leaving the fermentor to worry about cleaning and it is impossible for anything to get back into the fermentor. Beer out-gassing is incredibly sticky so I have tried to minimize that in my spunding valve or PRV as much as is possible, yet it still gets sticky. That is all I can think of to help you out. Some use a whole other keg as I do the water filter housing.

Interesting point -
How do you clean the valve?
Do you still use a water barrier to separate the spunding valve from the keg?
I see a lot of folks who have the valve screwed right onto the TC hardware that seems like you would have to clean that all every time.

 

[Flomaster]

so I have all my parts on order and they should arrive today. one question though what gauge psi should I get 0-30, 0-60 0-100 and should this be liquid filled or dry? I'd think dry would be fine. I am getting the gauge for free from a vendor for the price of a 12oz homebrewed beer.

-=Jason=-

 

[WortMonger]

Interesting point -
How do you clean the valve?
Do you still use a water barrier to separate the spunding valve from the keg?
I see a lot of folks who have the valve screwed right onto the TC hardware that seems like you would have to clean that all every time.

I take mine apart and clean it. I haven't bought the one like you have yet. I recommended it because it works better to release pressure, but I didn't know you couldn't take it apart. I need to buy another one because both of mine have corroded where the steel meets the brass. I may make one in machine shop out of stainless and be done with it.

The water barrier helped keep everything but the sticky gas out of the valve, but didn't 100% fix the problem of the valve getting sticky.

I started out with the valve right on the TC, I had to clean it every time.

so I have all my parts on order and they should arrive today. one question though what gauge psi should I get 0-30, 0-60 0-100 and should this be liquid filled or dry? I'd think dry would be fine. I am getting the gauge for free from a vendor for the price of a 12oz homebrewed beer.

-=Jason=-

I would do 0-60 since it hits every pressure you would need. I would also tell you to use liquid filled, as they can't let in any of the corrosion into the innards of the gauge since glycerine is there already. I believe the one I bought was for corrosive use IIRC so I didn't have to worry about that either.

 

[haeffnkr]

I take mine apart and clean it. I haven't bought the one like you have yet. I recommended it because it works better to release pressure, but I didn't know you couldn't take it apart. I need to buy another one because both of mine have corroded where the steel meets the brass. I may make one in machine shop out of stainless and be done with it.

The water barrier helped keep everything but the sticky gas out of the valve, but didn't 100% fix the problem of the valve getting sticky.

I started out with the valve right on the TC, I had to clean it every time.

Hmmm.... so you you put the water filter on it to isolate any contamination from the previously used spunding valve or to keep it from getting sticky or both?

I remember now that on this keg/batch I started with just a plug and bubbler and the fermentation was going on about 4 days before I put on my TC hardware/spunding valve.
It went up to 5 pounds in a few hours soon as I put on the spunding valve.
So either the keg had the infection in it some how or the infection was in the spunding valve that could travel back down the tube against pressure to infect the batch?
Is that even possible?

Trying to understand how the infection could go backwards down tubing against pressure.

thanks Kevin

 

[WortMonger]

At some point the pressure release stopped right? At that point liquid could come back out of the valve.

 

[haeffnkr]

At some point the pressure release stopped right? At that point liquid could come back out of the valve.

Not trying to argue ... trying to understand so stay with me please.

Here is my new setup -
I dont see how any liquid could go back through all this hose and fittings, gas maybe? You said liquid though, just trying to make sure we are on the same page.

I see a lot of guys who have spunding valve right on the Tee or Cross but I put the cam lock on there so I can take off the gas side and clean the liquid side.

thoughts?
thanks Kevin