Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[henryred]

1- snake 1/2 barrel keg is 15.5 gal. Yes to 5,10 gal batch


3- water in second keg not needed. It is a blowoff tank

 

[WortMonger]

Cacaman, the reason for any fermentor larger than your batch will work is because a blanket of C02 lays on top of the beer as soon as it starts being produced. This allows the fermentor to fill up and purge the 02 out of the fermentor no matter the size. There is more than enough C02 produced during fermentation for a 5 gallon batch to fill and purge a 15.5 gallon Sanke fermentor. The only thing I can't say with 100% certainty is, if allowed to none pressure ferment (when the time came to carbonate with this technique), would there be too much extra room to fill to pressure before the beer attenuated? That would be my only worry.

 

[WortMonger]

One of my favorite things about fermenting in sealed corny kegs is ohw easy it is to oxygenate. I use the $7 oxygen canisters bernzomatic sells, hook them up to the liquid post of my corny and just run pure oxygen through until I hit a couple of PSI. This seals the lid and makes sure I have plenty of O2.

Love this technique added to my current system. Works very well and I see results fast on the gauge instead of having to wait.

 

[pickles]

Love this technique added to my current system. Works very well and I see results fast on the gauge instead of having to wait.

Hmmm never thought of that. I guess the wort would absorb the O2 as well as it does CO2. I have a brewhemoth on the way, I wonder if 10gal of headspace would require too much O2? I can't really brew more than 12 gallons with current setup.

 

[diS]

Seems that oxygenation is another advantage of this method.
I've read that simple purging head space with O2 and shaking it for few seconds will result in more dissolved oxygen than oxygenation with aeration stone, also less amount of oxygen is needed.

This makes sense to me since by using a stone certain amount of oxygen is dissolved in solution and the rest of it is simply released in the air.
In pressurized keg, oxygen that does not go into solution will fill the headspace and after shaking it will eventually dissolve in wort.
I am just thinking out loud but I believe that we could use spunding valve and gauge as indicator of pressurized oxygen in keg to get predictable and consistent oxygenation (with constant head space).

 

[WortMonger]

I am just thinking out loud but I believe that we could use spunding valve and gauge as indicator of pressurized oxygen in keg to get predictable and consistent oxygenation (with constant head space).

That is exactly what I did when I tried this out. I had everything rigged for fermentation and put my O2 on the beer port until my spunding valve read 10psi. Then loosened the spunding valve until I heard a hiss. I didn't even shake my keg because it was 15 gallons in a chest freezer.

 

[tomhen]

Just fyi, here is how we clean our sankey's.
Cheers,
Tom

 

[MalFet]

Hmmm never thought of that. I guess the wort would absorb the O2 as well as it does CO2. I have a brewhemoth on the way, I wonder if 10gal of headspace would require too much O2? I can't really brew more than 12 gallons with current setup.

10 gallons of pressurized headspace would be a lot of oxygen. By my rough numbers, you'd need nearly half a Bernzomatic tank to get your headspace up to just 5psi. If I were in your shoes, I'd just turn it on very low and let it bubble up through from the bottom for a few minutes.

 

[MalFet]

Seems that oxygenation is another advantage of this method.
I've read that simple purging head space with O2 and shaking it for few seconds will result in more dissolved oxygen than oxygenation with aeration stone, also less amount of oxygen is needed.

This makes sense to me since by using a stone certain amount of oxygen is dissolved in solution and the rest of it is simply released in the air.
In pressurized keg, oxygen that does not go into solution will fill the headspace and after shaking it will eventually dissolve in wort.
I am just thinking out loud but I believe that we could use spunding valve and gauge as indicator of pressurized oxygen in keg to get predictable and consistent oxygenation (with constant head space).

I started a thread about this a while back in the brewing science subforum. This is a convenient and reliable way to dose oxygen more precisely.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/oxygenation-under-pressure-306783/

 

[E-Mursed]

Can someone link to where the Benzomatic O2 tanks can be found and purchased?

 

[MalFet]

Can someone link to where the Benzomatic O2 tanks can be found and purchased?

I don't think USPS will ship them, but they're available at many hardware stores around where I live. Certainly the box stores have always had them when I've looked. Failing that, any kind of welding supply shop should sell them.

 

[E-Mursed]

Found them listed at Lowes.

Do you have a simple "rule of thumb" volume to put in a cornie keg? I read your thread, didn't understand much, but I read it. Should I use half a cylinder, more, less...?

 

[MalFet]

Found them listed at Lowes.

Do you have a simple "rule of thumb" volume to put in a cornie keg? I read your thread, didn't understand much, but I read it. Should I use half a cylinder, more, less...?

Way, way, way less than half a cylinder.

For a five gallon batch, you need about a quarter of a gram of oxygen dissolved. I fill up my corny to about 19 liters and then fill the headspace to 3-4 psi. It's hard to track exactly how much of a cylinder that is, but we're talking dozens of batches per can.

 

[pickles]

Ok so I doubt I'll want to use 1/2 a bottle of O2 per batch. I think I'll just seal up the fermentor and run O2 through a stone for a minute or so. This should raise the internal pressure a bit which should work well. I usually wait a few days to "close" up the fermentor but it seems that those who have used the closed O2 process seal it up from the very beginning. Anyone see any adverse effects on fermentation because of this?

 

[E-Mursed]

Ok...sounds like a simple process then.


I will be using a second cornie for blow-off, so it may take a little extra, but I'm still figuring it to be a nominal amount.

Will be instituting this into my process with my next round of brews between semesters.

 

[MalFet]

Ok...sounds like a simple process then.


I will be using a second cornie for blow-off, so it may take a little extra, but I'm still figuring it to be a nominal amount.

Will be instituting this into my process with my next round of brews between semesters.

If you're using a 5 gallon corny for blow-off, you'll require vastly more oxygen.

 

[diS]

When counter-pressure filling several kegs, how do you know the keg is full and beer is at safety distance form gas dip tube?
(My batches are 10 gal so I should use 3 corny's for fermentation and transfer them into 2 serving kegs)

 

[Mysticmead]

When counter-pressure filling several kegs, how do you know the keg is full and beer is at safety distance form gas dip tube?
(My batches are 10 gal so I should use 3 corny's for fermentation and transfer them into 2 serving kegs)

if teh source keg is cold you'll see condensation form on the receiving kegs. if you setup an octopus to fill multiples, you'll get even amounts in each at the same time.

 

[diS]

Nice setup, but I am thinking on keg2keg transfer... although it would be nice have sankey keg for this.
I'm not sure how well will condensation show level at normal flow rate, especially in winter.

 

[1MadScientist]

When counter-pressure filling several kegs, how do you know the keg is full and beer is at safety distance form gas dip tube?
(My batches are 10 gal so I should use 3 corny's for fermentation and transfer them into 2 serving kegs)

I ferment in 2 and transfer to 2.

Your way, maybe by weight.

 

[MalFet]

If you don't need razor precision, You could always use an analog bathroom scale.

Edit: 1MadScientist beat me to it!

 

[RoundKid]

I fill kegs by weight. 8.35#/gallon + keg weight (9.2#) = about 51#. I weigh them with a digital luggage scale I bought from wal-mart for like $10.

 

[diS]

Thanks.
I am thinking to simplify it and use 2 primary kegs.. 2 yeast strains in same batch is on my mind for a while..
I could cut gas dip tube to enlarge volume for krasuen.

With how much wort do you fill your kegs?

 

[1MadScientist]

diS, If my memory serves be well, I believe I had no blow-through, all contained with this one .....


10/23/11 by Mad Scientist Brewhaus, on Flickr

It really depends on several factors, e.g. yeast, temperature and pressure, to name three. How much pressure you allow during the first several days of primary fermenting. I used US-05, 65* F and the pressure around 12 psi.

This one is 1 pint short of 5 US gallons, in a 5 gallon keg.

EDIT: I also used fermcap-s. ~10 drops...

 

[variverrat]

Been following this thread for years and was hoping I could contribute something. I haven't started brewing yet but am planning out my build. Because of space limitations in the fridge after installing a brewhemoth, I wanted to make something that could fit in the fridge door and be able to disconnect it without losing pressure in the fermenter if maintenance was needed, along with lots of safeguards.

Here is what I came up with combining a lot of other posts ideas, way over-engineered but it is modular enough to add or remove as budget permits, I know this can be done cheaper so please offer up substitute components and links, and I'll make updates.

Spunding Parts and Costs

Spunding Build Diagram

 

[pickles]

How much wort do you plan to put in the conical, you'll have 22gal to work with so you might not need the filter housing to control blow off.

 

[variverrat]

Main reason for the filter/water bath is to scrub beer aerosol before it gets to the valve, but I can see brewing 15-20 gallon batches at some point in the future.

 

[WortMonger]

Have you guys been reading the yeast immobilization threads? I'm hopeful this could be a new thing in our closed systems. Very interesting stuff and of course suspect in the brewing world. So far the experiment produced a clean brew with low krausen and very low sedimentation. Check it out!

 

[MalFet]

Have you guys been reading the yeast immobilization threads? I'm hopeful this could be a new thing in our closed systems. Very interesting stuff and of course suspect in the brewing world. So far the experiment produced a clean brew with low krausen and very low sedimentation. Check it out!

I hear the guy doing the experiment is utterly irresistible to women, too!

(Thanks for the plug WortMonger! I remain skeptical that this could replace normal yeast pitching, but if it does the possibilities for pressurized fermentations are very cool.)

 

[-MG-]

I'm just getting back into my closed system setup, now with a brewers hardware setup that has been working great.

I brewed Wednesday a simple lager and set the valve to about 2 PSI, came back next day to see it holding there. At +3 days I upped PSI to 4, and took a sample to find 45% attenuation. I just took a sample out last night and adjusted PSI to 5 (at +5 days), and have that sample degassing out overnight and will get a reading over lunch.

I plan to get the PSI up to 7 tomorrow. I wanted to check my practice of a D-rest as I've struggled with Diacetyl in the past. I was planning around 55% attenuation to take it out of the fridge and leave it at room temperature in my basement ~ 66 degrees for at least a couple of days.

I know some people have had great success with long D-rest's of up to two weeks. Also during this D-rest should I start just allowing the pressure to build up a bit? It looks like if I was around 15-16 PSI overall that would get me around 1.7 volume co2, which isn't terrible far off the end result.