Cleanest lager yeast between 65-72F?

[rallenhall]

I worked with a small brewery that used 34/70 for all of the lagers. It would throw tremendous sulfur at our standard fermentation temp of 55F. Front of house staff would complain about the "sewer" smell when entering the brewery. Explained to them that the aroma was the "smell of money," as the helles was 40% of our sales. The sulfur dissipated by the time it came out of the bright tank into packaging. Have often thought that a bit of sulfur was an indicator of a good lager to come. Regardless, only brewing at home these days, lagers often under 1 bar pressure where I like Diamond quite a bit. 34/70 is good too, maybe a bit more crisp, but it takes longer to clear and I'm not especially patient. Have yet to try S-189 in any form, though I have a few packs.

 

[Kickass]

It might be my average tasting ability but I have used and like 34/70, Diamond and CS German. Typically fermented at 62-64.

I buy mostly from morebeer so I use CS German most frequently.

y'all FAFO a lot

I gotta get out and hang with different crowds more often. This acronym/initialism has me perplexed.

 

[hungupdown]

Only experience was Mangrove Jack's M54 Californian Lager yeast. Which came with a Californian Common AG kit (from TMM UK) brewed last month.

Fermented at 18-20°C (64-68 °F) it certainly gave a clean flavour, with no sulphur apparent an any stage, and cleared well. Will certainly do a larger brew this summer.
M54 wasn't such a polished clean taste as Wyeast 2000 Budvar, but was so much quicker and easier.

 

[hilljack13]

I have noticed is it needs quite a while in primary to clean up diacetyl

^100% this^...min 4 months from my own experience.

 

[G_robertus]

Um, what? Some of my best beers have been made with Diamond. What issues have you had with it? The only thing I have noticed is it needs quite a while in primary to clean up diacetyl on some batches.

I get extreme amounts of red apple with Diamond, so much that it becomes undrinkable until it is broken down months later. I've tried many things as I was doubting my process, but I just can't get it to work. My initial thought always was the yeast, but I tried eliminating other variables. It wasn't malt, though it is worse when combined with extra dark Munich. Not hops either as changing those didn't help. I had poor hop utilisation on one where I tried to get more bitterness, but that can't be the reason. I've done three five way splits and the only time I didn't taste red apple (overwhelmingly) was when I made a very heavy Baltic porter, but it wasn't any good young anyway. S-189, W34/70 and Nottingham were much better. M84 was similar to Diamond, but still better. I'm tempted to try it under pressure, but on the other hand I could very well still not like it and I'd have to waste money, time and beer. I doubt it's diacetyl as I'm extremely sensitive and I feel like I didn't get that all here. I've had a friend's beer with Novalager once and that also had the weird red apple thing. I also doubt it's acetaldehyde because I'm rather insensitive to that and must look very hard to find something that remotely reminds me of green sour candy or artificial apple flavouring. Pilsner, festbier, Mexican lager and maybe something else that were all trash until six+ months later at roomish temp. The ones kept colder didn't recover and got dumped.

 

[Brewer dad]

It's good to hear others' thoughts on Diamond. Sounds like 34/70 is a pretty safe bet at 65 degrees. I might just stick with that. I'm not too concerned about cloudiness as long as the taste is right. I imagine Cellar Science German would be a good, cheaper alternative too.

Since I don’t think it was answered, yes these are both Weihenstephan strains. I have used both in the temps you’re talking about successfully, though I’ve used the Cellarscience way more.

 

[CyberFox]

Since I don’t think it was answered, yes these are both Weihenstephan strains. I have used both in the temps you’re talking about successfully, though I’ve used the Cellarscience way more.

Thanks for answering! I've used Cellar Science German and Cali once each and they ended up making good beer. It's especially nice being able to get 34/70's equivalent at half the price. I was mainly trying to get others' opinions because I was wondering if the grass was greener on the other side (i.e. potentially better yeasts that I haven't tried). It doesn't appear to be in this case.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I'd say it depends on your aim. I have quite some experience with S-23, S-189 and W34/70 at various temperatures. S-23 is solid, but can be a bit fruity when young. I've never gotten the 'fruit salad' results some people claim, even when fermenting warm and high gravity. I've got a very big porter going with it now and even though it's under pressure, given the OG and temperature I would say this still counts as a clean mark. S-189 works fine too, but it's a bit malty. 34/70 is more focused on hops and takes forever to clear.

I hate Diamond at any temperature because it takes six months to become palatable in my opinion. I've not tried Nova yet. Pseudolagers are a lie.

Can you talk more about your experience with S23?

I avoided it for many years because of the "fruit salad" thing, but recently tried it and think it is great, at 15c. S189, i find, as you say, malty. Great, consistent, easy to work with, but very very clean for me. I quite like the mild ester of S23.

I've never enjoyed 34/70, just my tastebuds i guess. It's clearly a widely used yeast that many people love, just not me.

 

[CyberFox]

My main goal is to have a neutral yeast that gets out of the way and lets all of the other ingredients do the talking. If I can get S-189 cheap enough, I'll probably give it a try. It sounds like most really like it and I haven't even heard anything bad about it. It sounds like it lets the malt shine more than 34/70 and I'm sure it would let the hops shine too.

 

[VTMongoose]

I get extreme amounts of red apple with Diamond, so much that it becomes undrinkable until it is broken down months later.

What temperature are you fermenting at, how much are you pitching, into how many gallons, and what is your pitching/rehydration procedure? I've not tried fermenting with this strain any warmer than 55°F.

 

[Miraculix]

My main goal is to have a neutral yeast that gets out of the way and lets all of the other ingredients do the talking. If I can get S-189 cheap enough, I'll probably give it a try. It sounds like most really like it and I haven't even heard anything bad about it. It sounds like it lets the malt shine more than 34/70 and I'm sure it would let the hops shine too.

3470 is much cleaner afaik.

 

[G_robertus]

Can you talk more about your experience with S23?

I avoided it for many years because of the "fruit salad" thing, but recently tried it and think it is great, at 15c. S189, i find, as you say, malty. Great, consistent, easy to work with, but very very clean for me. I quite like the mild ester of S23.

I've never enjoyed 34/70, just my tastebuds i guess. It's clearly a widely used yeast that many people love, just not me.

It's a great yeast in my opinion. It also accentuates malt, especially when you add (light) crystal malts. I made that mistake once and it was a bit overpowering. It can give off diacetyl when rushed, but if you take your time the outcome is very good. I've made a few märzens with it where I enjoyed a slight flowery hop note and maybe a touch of fruit, but enjoyable. I've also done a Munich/Izabella SMaSH that wasn't bad iirc, but I'd also not brewed that much back then. I've done a Czech-like lager which was fine, but I don't care for the style much. I tried a tropical stout which was disappointing because there was no fruitiness at all. I made that before I had temperature control at room temperature near the radiator, but it was clean as could be. I've done a Corona clone that I also really enjoyed, although it wasn't close to the original (luckily). I did an IPL which was also very good, but there fruitiness would probably get lost. I've done a couple of rauchbieren with it which were all very good. It's one of my favourite styles and I think this is my preferred yeast.
I've tried it three times under pressure at ~14°C. First was a rauchbier that turned out a bit lighter than planned, but very tasty after as little as four weeks of lagering. The second keg is conditioning now and it's also getting very tasty. I've also done a pilsner that is so good I'm having a hard time letting it condition. Last is a Baltic porter where I think I hit the ABV limit, because the FG is a bit high. Tasty beer though. None are fruity.
I've done it at cold temperatures ~10°C and without temperature control in winter where it likely wouldn't have gotten over 18°C (and that's stretching it, my house is very cold) except for the tropical stout. The warmest was probably the last one before I put it under pressure, which was a Comet SMaSH. Came out pretty much like a clean pale ale. None of these temperatures have caused any issues.

These were all my notes that mentioned S-23. Going over everything made me confirm this is probably just my favourite lager yeast, because I liked pretty much all of them a lot.

What temperature are you fermenting at, how much are you pitching, into how many gallons, and what is your pitching/rehydration procedure? I've not tried fermenting with this strain any warmer than 55°F.

I don't rehydrate, just direct pitch. The first was 11g/20L at ~13°C and pitched warm before cooling like Lallemand advises as well. I raised the temperature to 22°C after a week or so. Probably an underpitch in this case. I've also done 11g in 4.5L followed by serial repitches at 12°C and afterwards 'cellar temp', because I didn't like what I got from the first beer and didn't bother with it taking up space in the fridge.

 

[G_robertus]

My main goal is to have a neutral yeast that gets out of the way and lets all of the other ingredients do the talking. If I can get S-189 cheap enough, I'll probably give it a try. It sounds like most really like it and I haven't even heard anything bad about it. It sounds like it lets the malt shine more than 34/70 and I'm sure it would let the hops shine too.

I want to do another round of comparisons next year to include S-23, but in my tests hops didn't shine super bright using S-189. They were definitely there, but not like 34/70. I don't like how much of the malt flavour it typically strips though, especially in European styles.
S-189 can stall sometimes though. I've had it stop around 1.020 (from around 1.048-1.055), but it would continue after transfer. When bottling that can be quite annoying. The latest batch I've used didn't have that though, so maybe it was one particular lot of yeast. Still, I would use it again. I really like this in smoked beers (doppelbock for example).

 

[VTMongoose]

I don't rehydrate, just direct pitch. The first was 11g/20L at ~13°C and pitched warm before cooling like Lallemand advises as well. I raised the temperature to 22°C after a week or so. Probably an underpitch in this case. I've also done 11g in 4.5L followed by serial repitches at 12°C and afterwards 'cellar temp', because I didn't like what I got from the first beer and didn't bother with it taking up space in the fridge.

Where does Lallemand say to do this? Nobody says to do this. Lallemand recommends rehydrating at high temperatures, but nowhere do they say to pitch lager yeast into "warm" wort. I almost guarantee this is what caused your ester formation. Yeast ferment very quickly at higher temperatures, and also produce far more esters at higher temperatures. Additionally, once yeast get started chewing away at a beer, they generate heat, making cooling the wort harder to do. Also, if you aren't measuring the temperature in the fermentor, but measuring it externally, the wort could easily far, far hotter than your temperature controlled fridge if that is what you are using, even once the wort is cooled. For example on my Inkbird controlled fridges, I must set the setpoint about 1°C lower than my target fermentation temp.

 

[CyberFox]

3470 is much cleaner afaik.

Fine, fine, you've convinced me...I'll stick with CS German (34/70)! I might try S-189 at some point just for the hell of it.

 

[Miraculix]

Fine, fine, you've convinced me...I'll stick with CS German (34/70)! I might try S-189 at some point just for the hell of it.

By all means, do some comparisons! A split batch would be best, of course. Maybe you end up preferring something not so clean, who knows!

 

[G_robertus]

Where does Lallemand say to do this? Nobody says to do this. Lallemand recommends rehydrating at high temperatures, but nowhere do they say to pitch lager yeast into "warm" wort. I almost guarantee this is what caused your ester formation. Yeast ferment very quickly at higher temperatures, and also produce far more esters at higher temperatures. Additionally, once yeast get started chewing away at a beer, they generate heat, making cooling the wort harder to do. Also, if you aren't measuring the temperature in the fermentor, but measuring it externally, the wort could easily far, far hotter than your temperature controlled fridge if that is what you are using, even once the wort is cooled. For example on my Inkbird controlled fridges, I must set the setpoint about 1°C lower than my target fermentation temp.

Warm is relative. I'm not pitching pitching at 35°C, 25°C at most and I insulate my probe whilst also setting the target temperature two or three degrees lower depending on the gravity. I get to the correct temperature well before fermentation actually starts. The second time I pitched colder (12°C when starting my split batches) and had the same result. I did this colder to see if I could somehow get rid of it. The repitches at higher temperatures had the same level of red apple to me, but like I said, I didn't care at that point. The warm fermented lager thread is also full of people using it warm with supposedly good results. I detect red apple in many Lallemand yeasts, but Diamond and NovaLager are the worst (and arguably should have it the least). NL is in my opinion also terrible because it should be able to handle warmer conditions, yet it's not clean at all to me. For some reason red apple is listed for NL, but not for Diamond.

I might try it once more as cold as I can get with more than enough CFUs, but I'm sceptical.

 

[HM-2]

Warm is relative. I'm not pitching pitching at 35°C, 25°C at most and I insulate my probe whilst also setting the target temperature two or three degrees lower depending on the gravity.

25°C is enough to get plenty of ale yeast throwing weird and wonderful esters, let alone lager yeasts.

 

[CyberFox]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried fermenting 34/70 at 72F (actual wort temp)? If so, what were the results?

 

[Miraculix]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried fermenting 34/70 at 72F (actual wort temp)? If so, what were the results?

You might want to look up the "warm fermented lager thread".

It's been done quite often. It works. It's just a tad fruity.

 

[Miraculix]

25°C is enough to get plenty of ale yeast throwing weird and wonderful esters, let alone lager yeasts.

I'd be more concerned about fusel alcohols at that temperature because these are not wondeful at all.

 

[deuc224]

Green Apple Cider Beer sounds like a new beer style!

Lol last time i ever let that happen. Only yeast i let go free for all now is the 3068, makes a great hefe/dunkel.

 

[CyberFox]

You might want to look up the "warm fermented lager thread".

It's been done quite often. It works. It's just a tad fruity.

Man, I checked out that thread and it's a gold mine. Thanks! I think I'll try CS German at 72F for my next beer, then maybe S-189 down the line. Judging by that thread, it should turn out alright.

 

[CyberFox]

Does anyone here know if 34/70 would make hops pop more than something like US-05 or S-04? I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere at some point, but I'm not finding it and I'm just curious about any opinions here.

I'd LOVE to have the time to experiment with every type of yeast and ingredient, but I barely have any time to brew anymore (or do anything fun for that matter ) and any time I do brew it takes me a while to finish a batch, so my brew days are sadly very few and far between.

 

[Miraculix]

Does anyone here know if 34/70 would make hops pop more than something like US-05 or S-04? I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere at some point, but I'm not finding it and I'm just curious about any opinions here.

I'd LOVE to have the time to experiment with every type of yeast and ingredient, but I barely have any time to brew anymore (or do anything fun for that matter ) and any time I do brew it takes me a while to finish a batch, so my brew days are sadly very few and far between.

In my opinion, 3470 is one of, if not the most hop promoting yeast out there. No matter lager or ale yeast.

I've used this one extensively myself and would prefer it to all the other lager yeasts I've tried, when it comes to hoppy (speaking of American hops, of course) and clean ales.

 

[CyberFox]

In my opinion, 3470 is one of, if not the most hop promoting yeast out there. No matter lager or ale yeast.

I've used this one extensively myself and would prefer it to all the other lager yeasts I've tried, when it comes to hoppy (speaking of American hops, of course) and clean ales.

Nice! I tried it once for an IPA and it turned out to be the best beer I've made by a wide margin. Wasn't sure if it was just a fluke or not. Using it as my primary yeast seems like kind of a no brainer to me. Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

Nice! I tried it once for an IPA and it turned out to be the best beer I've made by a wide margin. Wasn't sure if it was just a fluke or not. Using it as my primary yeast seems like kind of a no brainer to me. Thanks!

The only downside is that it does not flocc well. Otherwise, great yeast.

 

[bwible]

Nobody said California Lager yeast, like Wyeast 2112? It has that temp range and says do not ferment cold. I haven’t used this yeast for years but I think its pretty clean.

 

[CyberFox]

The only downside is that it does not flocc well. Otherwise, great yeast.

True, but as long as it makes good beer I can't complain. We can't have it all, can we?! Maybe someday there will be a yeast like 34/70 that drops like a rock. That will be the day!

 

[CyberFox]

Now that I think about it, how long does it usually take for 34/70 to drop clear with cold crashing?