Cider Yeast Selection
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I did a 1-gallon cider using Voss. It was finished in just a few days. Tasted like the yeast neutralized some of the malic acid; the cider was not as tart as usual. Other than that it tasted good, maybe just needed higher carbonation.
bmd2k1
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How were the lees? Did ya cold crash & how did it respond? Is Omega only one doing Kveik ? Thx. (still contemplating my summer cider yeast options)
I am using Omega kveik yeast, but I think there's another company selling it too now. I did not cold-crash it, it dropped perfectly clear on its own. It was so clear I was afraid it might not carbonate.
But what I really came here to post about was the T-58. I made a batch of cider with it because it's supposed to suck. I just bottled it and it tastes (and smells) great. I'm drinking a glass of the leftovers right now. It does need yeast nutrient, tho'. I didn't add nutrients to the first half-gallon and it smelled pretty bad; I added nutrient along with the sugar and the rest of the apple juice and the stink went away almost immediately.
I wonder if a lack of nutrients is why mine stank for a long time. I even fermented it slow and cold to reduce yeast stress.
Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
I'd say that was the problem. My first one stank. Smelled like a$$ according to my step son. No nutes. Second one with nutes, smells great.
There's your approach with nutrients, then there's the complete opposite, which is to ferment slow and cold without adding nutrients to help preserve apple flavor and develop nuances from a long fermentation and aging on lees. The "slow" approach has little risk of sulfur off-flavors based on my experiments with D47, 71B, EC1118, QA23, and R4600. "Slow" ferments obviously work great for French and English cider makers as well!
I've had mixed results with ale yeasts and "slow" ferments without nutrients with some sulfurous ciders produced that have very little apple flavor. Overall, I prefer to use wine yeasts for cider.
I try to ferment in the winter with my basement in the 50’s. Not at a snail’s pace but often slower. The one I have going now is pretty slow even with a starter and nutrients.
I think the key is to slow it down without stalling or stressing the yeast. But I am far from an expert.
I think the key is to slow it down without stalling or stressing the yeast. But I am far from an expert.
Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
Sadly, we are expecting a low of 69, and a high of 84 today. So nutes and a better choice of yeast seem to be the only options for some of us.
bmd2k1
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Narrowing down my Michigan summer yeasts to Belle Saison, Belle Abbaye & Kveik at this point.....based on research. Haven't tried any of em yet -- let us know if ya try any of these warmer temp friendly bad boys [emoji111]
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I've had the best luck using wine yeasts (not an aggressive champagne strain) and nutrients. I use beer yeast when I have some fresh slurry that I want to try. Something I have not done yet is EC-1118 or Premier Cuvee without nutrients.
There's always a way...
http://shop.greatfermentations.com/...MI6-Tg9cvI4AIVg4CfCh3EKwjNEAQYASABEgJZJfD_BwE
Justwingnit
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I use wlp775 in a temp. controlled to 70 f and love it.
J Trott
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How did the batches turn out? Notty any good? What temperature was the fermentation? Thanks in advance for any insight!
Bump.
I'm planning to make some 1-gal batches using various store-bought juices. I've done a bunch of EdWort's Apfelwein with Montrachet and found it to be much like a white wine, with little apple flavor, and bone dry. Now I want to make cider (will be my first attempt), and have it not end up too dry. Would like a yeast that naturally finishes with a little sweetness and retains good apple flavor. @RPh_Guy, how does Premier Cuvee compare with S-04 or Notty in that regard?
I'm planning to make some 1-gal batches using various store-bought juices. I've done a bunch of EdWort's Apfelwein with Montrachet and found it to be much like a white wine, with little apple flavor, and bone dry. Now I want to make cider (will be my first attempt), and have it not end up too dry. Would like a yeast that naturally finishes with a little sweetness and retains good apple flavor. @RPh_Guy, how does Premier Cuvee compare with S-04 or Notty in that regard?
OP
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I'll try to remember to update this thread as cider season in the northern hemisphere approaches. The character limit on posts is a little restrictive.
I haven't used S04 or Notty, sorry. So many yeasts, so little time.
I love Premier Cuvee though. I think it leaves lots of apple flavor and a perception of sweetness.My favorite cider of 2018 was unpasteurized unsulfited juice with a tiny bit of WLP644, a tiny bit of WY5526, and a tiny amount of Lacto blend, fermented at 68-70°F and then added dregs from a mixed Brett sour (3 Floyd's Deesko), with some added FT Blanc Soft tannin and aged on some medium toast French oak cubes, lightly carbonated.
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I'll try to remember to update this thread as cider season in the northern hemisphere approaches. The character limit on posts is a little restrictive.
I haven't used S04 or Notty, sorry. So many yeasts, so little time.
Cool. I might give it a go with Cuvee.
412CiderGuy
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If you use Notty double the nutrient. For some reason that’s the only yeast that stresses out and makes my cider smell like sulphur.
CallyBrewster
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Notty used to be my go-to yeast. I got some SUPER SNOTTY pushback from one of my LHBS who won't even carry it because, reasons. But it's generally good, I like it at around 57–58°F, and would use it again, especially for cider I intend to ignore for some number of months.
Problems I had with Nottingham were banana-like esters when fermented too warm, and rhino farts when I was using a ratio of 1gal apple juice:0.8lb of table sugar. Notty has also has taken multiple rackings and up to a year to fully clear.
Just finished a batch with the WLP775 English Cider yeast + Costco AJ. I had super great results. Incredibly clear just coming off the lees. I stopped it a little bit sweet (1.010) because I was taking it camping and wanted to please a mixed crowd. Even without any aging whatsoever, it was completely delightful.
I re-used the cake to ferment something an experiment in madness (Trader Joe's Winter Wassail + regular AJ). Right now it's at .098, still actively fermenting, and is going to have to be used for blending. BUT! It has super nice mouthfeel, and even at this gravity, some fruity residual.
Problems I had with Nottingham were banana-like esters when fermented too warm, and rhino farts when I was using a ratio of 1gal apple juice:0.8lb of table sugar. Notty has also has taken multiple rackings and up to a year to fully clear.
Just finished a batch with the WLP775 English Cider yeast + Costco AJ. I had super great results. Incredibly clear just coming off the lees. I stopped it a little bit sweet (1.010) because I was taking it camping and wanted to please a mixed crowd. Even without any aging whatsoever, it was completely delightful.
I re-used the cake to ferment something an experiment in madness (Trader Joe's Winter Wassail + regular AJ). Right now it's at .098, still actively fermenting, and is going to have to be used for blending. BUT! It has super nice mouthfeel, and even at this gravity, some fruity residual.
I have not tried this yeast. However, I’m a big fan of Mangrove Jack’s M-02. I read somewhere that they are the same but can’t confirm.
The M-02 leaves lots of apple flavor and body compared to other yeast I’ve tried. Ferments fast and clean. I do use nutrients with all my ciders.
I'll second the M02.
I've only done a 1 gallon batch but was my best by far. Didn't add any sugar so it a relatively low abv. Left some light sweetness and lots of apple.
Better in cider than beer imho but needs some ageing. Just like a month or two.
I've only done a 1 gallon batch but was my best by far. Didn't add any sugar so it a relatively low abv. Left some light sweetness and lots of apple.
Better in cider than beer imho but needs some ageing. Just like a month or two.
Albionwood
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I used M02 one year and made some good cider with it. My favorite though continues to be Lallemand D47, which creates a nice mouthfeel and doesn't strip out all the fruit character. It also tends to clear up well, unlike my other favorite, 71B (which partially metabolizes malic acid, rounding off some of the sharpness).
Cider is all simple, easily fermentable sugars. It always turns out dry unless you're trying really hard and do a lot more than just pitch some yeast and walk away.
To get a sweet cider, you have to chemically stabilize and/or pasteurize when dry. Then backsweeten.
Perceived sweetness can vary with apple variety and yeast choice, but I'm not an expert there.
OP
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I figured you were going to start taking about keeving
Besides the methods you mention (stabilizing/pasteurizing/filtering & then sweetening) and keeving, you could also bottle pasteurize (sweeten, carbonate, and then pasteurize), exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast (i.e. apple wine or ice cider), or use a non-fermentable sweetener. You could also just cold crash and drink before fermentation completes.
Besides keeving these are all pretty simple methods.
Oh, and there's the méthode champenoise (bottle carbonate dry, and then stabilize and sweeten in the bottle), another advanced method.
Lots of ways to do things. You could even add sugar/sweetener at the time you drink it.
FYI Sorbitol is a non-fermentable sugar in apple juice; that's why it doesn't typically ferment bone dry and why sweetness varies.
I figured you were going to start taking about keeving
Well, I thought about it. I wrote a couple sentences about it, but then decided it was way out of scope for this thread and started over. I also don't know what I'm doing there. I should plant some french bittersweets.
I should get some land first.
True, but there is little enough in it that cider will typically ferment all way to 1.000 or even less. Give or take a couple points. Pears have a ton more.
Although it'd be neat if there was varietal testing with that data. Maybe I'll do that when I have more money than sense(which will run hand in hand with having an orchard with an absurd number of fruit varieties). Maybe the Mt. Vernon Ag Station will start doing it if we ask nicely enough. By which I mean, if we bribe them. Excuse me, fund a research grant.
French cider makers use late season apples that are low in nitrogen, ferment cold with wild yeast, and allow it to stall from lack of nutrients. Semi sweet cider with no fuss.
Jolicoeur uses EC1118 at 50 degrees and racks off the lees a few times to slow down the ferment. His cider takes about 5 months to make and finishes off-dry.
S-04 at 60° will finish at 1.004.
Keeving and Jolicoeur's method were what I was talking about with "a lot more than just pitch some yeast and walk away."
Given how many keeves fail I dunno if I'd call it "no fuss". Both methods are pretty interventionist.
Given how many keeves fail I dunno if I'd call it "no fuss". Both methods are pretty interventionist.
venatorscribe
bucket chemist
I back sweeten my ciders and sparkling wines using Erythritol. Worth considering as it has fewer gut related issues.
MiBeerMan
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was just watching a youtube with Michael of moonlight meadery. He mentions that he uses 71B for both his meads and ciders. I use it for my meads and wine but never for ciders. I currently have one on my cyser but would love to try it on my next cider. One thing he says homebrewers get wrong is fermenting at high temps. He said try to get must temp at 64 if at all possible. Anything around 72 and higher will produce the hotter taste
I like Belle Saison for cider, but last week when I bottled my first batch of beer, I decided to throw some apple juice and FAJC on that yeast and see how it turns out. The yeast is Munich Classic (a top fermenter), and the cider has a nice krausen on it now.
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Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
Sadly, no. I have only done one batch of beer so far, and it is still carbing in bottles. The avatar photo is from a trip to Germany a few years ago. When I have some nice photos of my own brews, I will update my avatar.
Blacksmith1
Captain Cheap
Still looks very tasty
I've used that yeast twice. I was expecting a bit of character and didn't get. However, it made a pretty clean and tasty cider. I fermented on the lower end, prob low 70's.
OP
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RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
Belle or Munich Classic?
Same question--which of the 2 yeasts I mentioned do you mean? And what do you mean by "character"? With Belle Saison, it's kept a nice hint of apple, and those were fermented at room temp--mid to upper 70s. The one I'm trying with Munich Classic now has been at 68-70 during the main ferment period. It's been a week, so I am going to test SG today (and taste it).
Belle Saison.
It fermented really clean with plenty of apple character left.
One batch was blackberry with store bought AJ. The other was plain cider with pressed apples from Gravensteins and random neighbor apples.
Bc both were different styles it’s hard to compare to other strains of yeast I’ve used.
I initially used that yeast because my ferm chamber was being used for beer and I wanted a strain that could I leave in garage. The outside temps ended up being cooler than I expected.
It fermented really clean with plenty of apple character left.
One batch was blackberry with store bought AJ. The other was plain cider with pressed apples from Gravensteins and random neighbor apples.
Bc both were different styles it’s hard to compare to other strains of yeast I’ve used.
I initially used that yeast because my ferm chamber was being used for beer and I wanted a strain that could I leave in garage. The outside temps ended up being cooler than I expected.
Jason Flair
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My go to cider yeast is WB-06.
It ferments clean and fast with no Sulphur.
It is also rated to 11% ABV so I also use it for my Cysers.
I just racked a Fuji/Gala Cyser and it went from 1.080-1.001. I will back sweeten it a little with honey, but I like them dry.
It leaves a nice apple flavor, even when it is dry.
If you want a sweet cider with that yeast, you need to stop it somehow or it will chew though it all.
It ferments clean and fast with no Sulphur.
It is also rated to 11% ABV so I also use it for my Cysers.
I just racked a Fuji/Gala Cyser and it went from 1.080-1.001. I will back sweeten it a little with honey, but I like them dry.
It leaves a nice apple flavor, even when it is dry.
If you want a sweet cider with that yeast, you need to stop it somehow or it will chew though it all.
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