Cider fermentation/secondary?

[bjhbrew]

Hey, I'm a beer brewer dabbling in cider making. I've had some good success with fermenting apple juice from the grocery store by fermenting with an ale strain and adding yeast nutrients. In most cases I've let the fermentation go around 4 weeks at the lowest temp recommended for that particular ale yeast and have had good, clean albeit somewhat boring results.

This past weekend I started fermenting my first cider from juice that I managed to squeeze from apples taken from my parents apple tree. My process looked like this:

1. Core and then freeze ~15lbs of apples
2. Apples thawed and ran through a food processer to smash them all up
3. Apple mush contained in a mesh bag in a bucket. I added a cambden tab to halt any wild fermentation
4. 12 hours later I added pectic enzyme at the rate given on the package
5. 12 hours after the pectic enzyme I squeezed out the juice (1 gallon) and pitched Scottish ale yeast (wy1728) along with some DAP. I used scottish ale yeast because I already had it and I'm hoping for a lowish attenuation.

So now, here I am week later. The cider has been happily bubbling away but my concern is that there has been some definite sulfur aromas coming out and there is a decent amount of sediment gathering at the bottom. My questions:

1. Should cider be racked to secondary to get it off of the sediment and yeast?
2. I've read about splash racking, should I splash rack to remove sulfer compounds?
3. Coming from beer brewing I'm conditioned to be careful of oxidation, is this a concern in cider making?

If you've made it this far, thank you for any advice you can give!

 

[RPh_Guy]

You need to add a yeast nutrient with vitamins and amino acids. DAP by itself is insufficient, and can actually increase the formation of sulfide.
https://***************.com/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide

You don't mention aeration, or whether you left the juice open to air after adding the sulfite. It needs to be thoroughly aerated before pitching.

Without measuring pH we'd have no idea if the amount of sulfite you added is too little or too much.
https://***************.com/wiki/Sulfite

Until it's done fermenting, I wouldn't worry about the hydrogen sulfide.

Oxidation is a concern, but not to the degree that it is with beer.

Cheers

 

[bjhbrew]

I didn't realize that DAP by itself was not sufficient for a healthy cider ferment. Do you have a particular nutrient that you recommend?

In regards to the sulfite, I added 1 crushed tablet to nearly an exact gallon of juice in a 5 gallon bucket loosely covered for at least 24 hours before pitching the yeast. Aeration consist simply of shaking the 1 gallon fermenter after transfering the juice in, not sure if that is considered enough.

So, if the fermentation trails off and I can taste sulphur what should I do?

 

[RPh_Guy]

For nutrients, I suggest Go-Ferm plus Fermaid O.

1 campden tablet could be too little or too much, depending on the pH.

Shaking the 1 gal fermenter possibly wasn't enough aeration.

It's still a work in progress, but my article has all the details about sulfide removal.

 

[bjhbrew]

Thank you, a couple things to do differently next time for sure. Hopefully there is still a chance this current batch works out. It'd be pretty cool to show up at my parents with a bottle or two of nice cider from their apple tree!

 

[Yooper]

I use one campden tablet per gallon myself at the beginning (to inhibit wild microbes), and it's worked for me for 30+ years so I wouldn't worry about it.

Rack when the fermentation is about 75% done (you can guess) or when the SG is under 1.010 or so. Then make sure it's topped up to avoid oxidation and wait. Rack again when you have gross lees of 1/4" or more, or after 60 days, whichever is first. Oxidation is a HUGE issue, just as it is with wine.

You can rack one last time you have you have a ton of gross lees, like I do with certain apple varieties, and use 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon (crushed and dissolved) at every other racking if you don't have an S02 meter- it's a pretty decent guestimate as to the amount of sulfites needed.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I use one campden tablet per gallon myself at the beginning (to inhibit wild microbes), and it's worked for me for 30+ years so I wouldn't worry about it.

Why should I use [Scientific Process A], when [Old-School Process B] is easier?
The answer is always this: Using science helps improve the quality and/or consistency of the product.

In this case, Process A is adjusting the sulfite dose based on pH; we know we're using exactly the right amount, neither too little nor too much sulfite. With Process B (one campden tablet per gallon)... firstly, we don't account for the fact that not all campden tablets are the same, and second, we may drastically under- or over-dose the sulfite, leading to possible spoilage if it's too low, or hydrogen sulfide if it's too high. The latter is exactly what happened to the OP in this thread (although it could have been a other factors or a combination of factors).

 

[madscientist451]

It'd be pretty cool to show up at my parents with a bottle or two of nice cider from their apple tree!

Any idea what the apple variety is? I've made some single variety ciders that came out pretty good, but usually a blend of apples works out best. I usually like at least 10 different varieties in a cider.
You don't have to use sulfites, some commercial makers let the wild yeast run, then add yeast, or some go completely wild ferment.
I've done it both ways and have made some interesting ciders using wild yeast.
Having said that, I've also had some ciders and wines go vinegary after racking and storage. If you're not going to drink your cider when its relatively fresh, add some sulfites when racking.
I usually only rack once, when its done fermenting, although as Yooper indicated its best to rack before its all the way finished. Then I let it sit about 4-5 months before racking to jugs, although sometimes I get busy and just store it in bulk for long periods.
The apple trees are budding out now, which is a reminder to taste last season's cider.

 

[Yooper]

Why should I use [Scientific Process A], when [Old-School Process B] is easier?
The answer is always this: Using science helps improve the quality and/or consistency of the product.

In this case, Process A is adjusting the sulfite dose based on pH; we know we're using exactly the right amount, neither too little nor too much sulfite. With Process B (one campden tablet per gallon)... firstly, we don't account for the fact that not all campden tablets are the same, and second, we may drastically under- or over-dose the sulfite, leading to possible spoilage if it's too low, or hydrogen sulfide if it's too high. The latter is exactly what happened to the OP in this thread (although it could have been a other factors or a combination of factors).

Correct. Thanks for the advice.

 

[bjhbrew]

Any idea what the apple variety is? I've made some single variety ciders that came out pretty good, but usually a blend of apples works out best. I usually like at least 10 different varieties in a cider.
You don't have to use sulfites, some commercial makers let the wild yeast run, then add yeast, or some go completely wild ferment.
I've done it both ways and have made some interesting ciders using wild yeast.
Having said that, I've also had some ciders and wines go vinegary after racking and storage. If you're not going to drink your cider when its relatively fresh, add some sulfites when racking.
I usually only rack once, when its done fermenting, although as Yooper indicated its best to rack before its all the way finished. Then I let it sit about 4-5 months before racking to jugs, although sometimes I get busy and just store it in bulk for long periods.
The apple trees are budding out now, which is a reminder to taste last season's cider.

Yeah, I’ve certainly read that a mix of apples is best. This was a cider of opportunity. The apples I used are an unknown variety but they’re small, pleasant to eat with a bit of tartness. I think when I get to packaging I’ll taste and possibly dose with wine tannin or acid to taste? Again new to this process. I like the idea of trying a wild ferment in the future but I guess coming from beer brewing I also like having at least some control over what’s going on I’m there.

 

[bjhbrew]

I use one campden tablet per gallon myself at the beginning (to inhibit wild microbes), and it's worked for me for 30+ years so I wouldn't worry about it.

Rack when the fermentation is about 75% done (you can guess) or when the SG is under 1.010 or so. Then make sure it's topped up to avoid oxidation and wait. Rack again when you have gross lees of 1/4" or more, or after 60 days, whichever is first. Oxidation is a HUGE issue, just as it is with wine.

You can rack one last time you have you have a ton of gross lees, like I do with certain apple varieties, and use 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon (crushed and dissolved) at every other racking if you don't have an S02 meter- it's a pretty decent guestimate as to the amount of sulfites needed.

Thanks for weighing in with your process Yooper! It was your cider for beginners thread that I followed this far. I appreciate that there may be a bit of disagreement between the tried and true methods vs scientifically optimized. It is encouraging to know that someone getting started without having all the equipment can be successful but there are things to geek out on later down the road.