Chillus Convolutus vs Therminator?

[The Pol]

Okay, so I am playing with an idea and I need an efficient chiller. I would love to use a plate chiller, BUT, every thread I read I hear people talking about what a pain they are to clean... sometimes they get clogged...

I use pellet hops, and can filter them out (as best I can)...

BUT, I would have a great deal of comfort running a Chillus Convolutus since it will not clog.

Anyone have ANY idea how well these compare in efficiency?

The Therminator (or competitor) are about 6.5' of surface area.
The Chillus Convolutus has about 2' of surface area.

How does the heat conductivity of copper compare to that of 304 stainless? This is what I found:

A figure of merit for copper is 231
A figure of merit for stainless steel is 8.1
Meaning that a given length of copper will conduct 28x as much heat as stainless steel. This is why there are copper clad bottom stainless steel pots. SO, is the reduced surface area in the Chillus made up for by the better heat conductivity?

 

[Brewers Hardware]

Can't answer specifically, but I used to have a Chillus Convolutus. I know a lot of people post they can pump full throttle through it and get wort at whatever the input temperature is. That was not my experience. I used to have to close my ball valve about half way to slow the flow down enough to get the effluent to match the input temp.

That wasn't a problem for me, just some more input. I'm also looking for a chilling solution and I'm worried about a plate chiller clogging especially if I'm trying to recirculate through it, but I've yet to read a post where someone has said , "My plate chiller just clogged."

Granted I just may not have seen it, but I see way more people talk about being worried about it clogging than anyone ever saying, "Mine clogged"

 

[Dog House Brew]

I just read a chart on this tonight. You will use nearly double the water compared to Therminator. I google searched on CFC comparison and came up with it. If I can find it I'll send it to you. Pretty in depth comparison. This too is my problem. They stated how efficient the plate is, nearly twice. Therminator used 34 gallons to chill 10 gallons, Chillz used 58. That would be a huge differnce with what you want to do. I'm concerned about the pellets as well. I have PM'd all kinds on this board and have yet to have anyone with the chillous or chillz to say they aren't awesome. I think in your closed system I would still go with the plate because less water is needed compared to the CFC. You can figure out a way to screen the hops. But then again what do I know? I can't commit on this topic myself.

 

[samc]

Wouldn't you need to know the thickness of the two metals to do a fair comparison? I am just guessing on this as I don't know much about the science of heat conductivity and metals. The SS plates in my chiller are .3mm thick, the copper tubing in Chillus is ??? 2x - 3x? thicker, just guessing on that.

Used my plate chiller a few times so far and after flushing it for 20 seconds or so the water/oxyclean runs clear. Leaf hops in a strainer bag and have not seen any issues yet.

 

[The Pol]

FWIW, I am using a closed cooling system. The amount of water does not matter as for me it will be fixed at 4 gallons water and 40 pounds of cubed ice. I have a thread showing the math that proves this has the cooling power for 5.5 gallons. We ot down to the # of calories of energy it takes to HEAT the ice to melting temp, and then the # of calories to MELT it... whew!

I need a way to convert this HOT wort energy to my COOLING fluid. I plan to RECIRCULATE... which is why I am worried about clogging up a plate chiller.

I use pellet... I can bag them... but... will the break material break me??

Basically I have my cooling power nailed down, I just want an eff. way to transfer that HEAT to the COOLING liquid as fast as possible while recirculating the cooling water and the wort to the kettle.

 

[Bobby_M]

Well now, in a closed system the speed of transfer would be a negligible difference. The price of the chillus is scary though. Since you're pumping anyway, why not an IC?

 

[The Pol]

Well now, in a closed system the speed of transfer would be a negligible difference. The price of the chillus is scary though. Since you're pumping anyway, why not an IC?

Pellet hops... recirculating through the kettle? CLOGGING... that is my worry.

The Chillus is $200, the plate chiller close to $100....

 

[sudbuster]

Pellet hops... recirculating through the kettle? CLOGGING... that is my worry.

The Chillus is $200, the plate chiller close to $100....

I have a Therminator plate chiller and recirculate. I use Lil-Sparky's hop bag trick and then recirculate back into the bag while chilling to catch a bunch of break. Haven't had any problems with the plates clogging. After it's over, just backflush and recirculate PBM solution and you are done. I like me plates...

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Okay, so I am playing with an idea and I need an efficient chiller.

What is your intention? I seen an experiment being undertaken.

 

[The Pol]

What is your intention? I seen an experiment being undertaken.

Closed circuit wort cooling. No garden hoses, it will utilize a total of 4 gallons of water and 40 pounds of ice (from an ice machine). There is a thread detailing some of the math here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/therminator-ice-water-whirlpool-question-140003/

Basically use VERY little water (and what I do use, will ALL be used for cleaning afterward. And no dragging frozen hoses into my comfy garage and running water down my driveway. I want a closed system basically and this is an idea I am playing with.

 

[Ryan_PA]

I switched from the shirron to the chillus convolutus for the simple fact that I did not trust the lack of efficient cleaning I could get done in a plate chiller. After searching for the right counterflow solution I landed on the CC. I also recirculate and seem to get down to 70 in the kettle faster than I want to, as I am usually trying to clean up a little during chilling. I would guess a 10G batch is at 70* in less than 15 minutes, never actually timed it though. Once I get the kettle to that temp, I do a final pass through the chiller to take the wort to below pitching temps for ales, and to about pitching temp for lagers.

I would vote for the CC

 

[The Pol]

I switched from the shirron to the chillus convolutus for the simple fact that I did not trust the lack of efficient cleaning I could get done in a plate chiller. After searching for the right counterflow solution I landed on the CC. I also recirculate and seem to get down to 70 in the kettle faster than I want to, as I am usually trying to clean up a little during chilling. I would guess a 10G batch is at 70* in less than 15 minutes, never actually timed it though. Once I get the kettle to that temp, I do a final pass through the chiller to take the wort to below pitching temps for ales, and to about pitching temp for lagers.

I would vote for the CC

Do you know the approx. temp of your cooling water?

I will be cooling 5.5 gallons, recirculating to the kettle AND using water between 33F and 58F during the process. Thanks

 

[Bobby_M]

I didn't have the Chillus or the Therminator but I did have a home made CFC and a huge plate chiller. To get wort out = coolant in on the CFC, the flow rate of the wort had to be half that of the coolant in. In the plate, both could be flowed at the same rate for the same result.

In a closed loop, I would just assume about equal cooling times and there is no concept of saving water there. The amount is fixed. I think the most important thing with plates is back flowing them during cleanup with hot water to dislodge any break material that got caught.

 

[the_bird]

Yeah, I have a hard time thinking that one is going to be materially faster than the other, and given a closed system the water inefficiency that might arise from a CFC should be a non-issue.

Looks to me that the Therminator is about $200, about the same as the Chillus.

So, to me that would leave ease-of-cleaning as the primary difference, and while the plate chiller might be fine it's hard to see how that is not an argument in favor of the Chillus.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks Bobby... I am working on this, and I want to have something that will give me no headaches.

I DO use pellet hops. I WILL be recirculating (which will introduce break material to the plates. I admit, I am scared as hell that I will not be able to keep this out of the plates and will clog it during the cooling process.

 

[JVD_X]

When I was actually using my therminator (I retired it) I had some luck using a SS braid in the kettle. I eventually got worried about contamination and now its sitting useless in my garage too heavy to effectively sell and ship.

 

[the_bird]

I just can't wrap my brain around the efficiency question. Since you'll be recirculating, whichever chiller you buy, you'll be running the icewater at their maximum rate. I don't see how you'll have any issue, really, as fast as you can pump the wort through the chiller, you should be chilling it.

 

[The Pol]

I just can't wrap my brain around the efficiency question. Since you'll be recirculating, whichever chiller you buy, you'll be running the icewater at their maximum rate. I don't see how you'll have any issue, really, as fast as you can pump the wort through the chiller, you should be chilling it.

The eff. question was this.

If I pump BOTH fluids at 3gal/min through both chillers, which will chill FASTER. Water useage isnt an issue, correct. BUT, the key is transferring heat from the kettle to the cooling meduim as quickly as possible. A Therminator has about 3x the surface area as the CC... but I will probably clog it.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I have been using a plate chiller for nearly 3 years now and have never had it plug. Of course, I do use a paint strainer hop sack and I periodically deep clean with Acid #5.

Buddy of mine had a CC and managed to somehow plug it with some stray leaf. Had to let it sit for quite some time to dry out and loosen the plug.

 

[The Pol]

I have been using a plate chiller for nearly 3 years now and have never had it plug. Of course, I do use a paint strainer hop sack and I periodically deep clean with Acid #5.

Buddy of mine had a CC and managed to somehow plug it with some stray leaf. Had to let it sit for quite some time to dry out and loosen the plug.

I can filter out MOST of te pellet hop... BUT my electric element will not be friendly to a hop sack... I dont think?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I can filter out MOST of te pellet hop... BUT my electric element will not be friendly to a hop sack... I dont think?

I doubt it will be. Might even consider a grant if you go the PC route. I have actually been toying with the idea of making myself a wire screen basket to replace the paint bags. I like to recirculate in the kettle for clarity and improved break. Sometime I find the sieve of the bags to be too fine and traps too much break. Last brewday, I nearly filled the sack. The sieve was plugged by trub.

Best of luck POL. I chose a plate chiller and never looked back.

 

[The Pol]

Dammit, no solution....

 

[PseudoChef]

I am also in the camp the uses a plate chiller exclusively with pellet hops. I filter with the suspended hop-collar, but am soon to switch to a homemade hop-stopper. I have never had it clog.

I would think that if you positioned the suspended collar so long as it has good clearance from your heating element you will be just fine. Recirculating back through the paint strainer bag will then help clear even more break material.

Once I fitted my Shirron with QDs, I find cleaning it is a snap. Once the wort is transferred to the fermenter, it is a simple switch to have hot water backflushed through the wort out post.

 

[Bobby_M]

The chillus and any CFC for that matter will have no problem with pellets. You could literally just point the siphon tube just a touch off center and 1/8" off the bottom and pump away. Some break and pellet dust will probably get circulated but the whirlpool will eventually grab it and add it to the cone.

Another point here is that a $80 plate chiller on Ebay is still half the cost of a chillus. If you clog it, you could buy a whole new one and still be ahead.

 

[The Pol]

The chillus and any CFC for that matter will have no problem with pellets. You could literally just point the siphon tube just a touch off center and 1/8" off the bottom and pump away. Some break and pellet dust will probably get circulated but the whirlpool will eventually grab it and add it to the cone.

Another point here is that a $80 plate chiller on Ebay is still half the cost of a chillus. If you clog it, you could buy a whole new one and still be ahead.

Until I brew again, and clog that one

I dont know if my SS scrubby is up to the task of keeping this stuff out of a plate chiller... wish I could borrow one to see!

 

[Ryan_PA]

Man, work got in the way of me keeping up on this thread.

I am on well water, the average temp is between 65-70*

I am not a fan of equipment failures, that is why I went CC. I do not want to ignite the whole plate vs. conterflow debate here, but personally I trust the cleaning I get from the CC much better than the backflow, soaking, baking process I did for the plate.

 

[The Pol]

Man, work got in the way of me keeping up on this thread.

I am on well water, the average temp is between 65-70*

I am not a fan of equipment failures, that is why I went CC. I do not want to ignite the whole plate vs. conterflow debate here, but personally I trust the cleaning I get from the CC much better than the backflow, soaking, baking process I did for the plate.

This is another issue that is on my mind too. Cleaning, sanitizing. I mean I can pump boiling wort through both of them for 5 minutes prior to turning on the ICE circulation.

Will the plate chiller restrict my wort/cooling liquid flow at all? Is there an increase in flow with the CC?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I hate to pimp my own ideas, but my diches cooling system may be worth a look for you. You already have the coil in you HLT for your herms. You need not hard mount the IC in the BK, just use a drop in copper chiller. I get pretty ridiculous cooling our of my system with 25' in the HLT and 50' in the BK. I am dropping boiling temps to 58 with 55 ground water in about 13 minutes (that was a 13g batch).

Basically, the cooling water with ice circulates through an IC in the BK, the returns to the HLT to whirlpool the ice water. The hot wort fromt he BK circulates through an IC in the HLT (your HERMS) and returns to the BK to whirlpool the wort. Dual whirlpool.

 

[The Pol]

I hate to pimp my own ideas, but my diches cooling system may be worth a look for you. You already have the coil in you HLT for your herms. You need not hard mount the IC in the BK, just use a drop in copper chiller. I get pretty ridiculous cooling our of my system with 25' in the HLT and 50' in the BK. I am dropping boiling temps to 58 with 55 ground water in about 13 minutes (that was a 13g batch).

If I am doing this, then why not....

Put the ICE and WATER in my HLT where I have a STIRRER, TEMP PROBE and a COIL (25' and 1/2" DIA)... then recirculate my HOT WORT through the coil in my HLT surrounded by ICE and WATER?

Again, this will NOT provide the surface area of the PLATE chiller, but much more than the CC. BUT I can do it without buying any new equipment to see how well it works, then move from there....

ERRRRRTTTT: EDIT, my 1/2" x 25' coil has MORE surface area than the Therminator... hrmmmm It has 7.3 feet to the Therminator 6.5'

 

[Ryan_PA]

That seems like a pretty cool option. You have nothing to loose trying it, and I bet it is at least a similar efficiency as the plate and/or CC