Cheerios Yeast Starter!

[ForerunnerBrewer]

I just spent an enormous amount of money getting licensed in two states so my budget is tight. Which is not a bad thing because it forces me to think very creatively!

Here is what I'm kicking around. Since honey is not a good yeast starter because of complex carbohydrates and lack of nutrients and pure sugar simply lacks anything, I was musing on other alternative yeast foods. I remembered another thread I saw a year ago about a guy that had cheerios in his beer as an adjunct. Since yeasties basically get their nutrition from liquified malts (which include sugars) is it that much of a stretch to believe that same nutrition is in cheerios sans sugar? The main ingredient in Cheerios is malted Oats.

So I thought I would heat up some Cheerios and add some honey or table sugar, perhaps both since wort has different grades of sugars.

Thoughts?

 

[JonK331]

It is very important that the starter wort contain maltose. It would be cheaper and more effective to just conduct a very small mash with base malt.

 

[KingBrianI]

I hope you were getting licensed for something other than brewing!

 

[HokieBrewer]

I hope you were getting licensed for something other than brewing!

zing

 

[Jawbox0]

You probably wouldn't save anything that way... if you're looking for a grocery store starter medium, check out Malta Goya, there are a few threads on using it for starters...

If you really want to save money, do a partial mash with two row and can the wort for future brews. (or ziplock freezer bag and freeze)

 

[ForerunnerBrewer]

Thanks for the imput everyone, even for the sarcasm! By the way, they are Realtor/Broker Licences.

I used the last of my 50lb 2-row on the batch I'm about to start. I believe I have 4 oz to spare! I get the need for maltose. I also thought of mashing that 4 oz, but with a little bit of Cheerios and see what happens. I know, I'm crazy!

You got to admit though it's an admirable try. After-all..."You may be able to (temporarily) reduce my cash, but you will never take MY FREEDOM... I mean MY BEER!"

Yeah, that was me quoting myself.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Two words. Dry yeast.

 

[Accidic]

I wouldn't use the cheerios personally but I did the goya once in a pinch. Seems like you could add a small amount of sugar to the malt you have after mashing it? The nutrients from the make ought to get you started enough to finish the sugar wouldn't it?

 

[GodsStepBrother]

Though this advice wont work for your current situation, on your next mash just add an extra amount of water to the mash tun and run that off into jars that you can freeze. Then you have starter wort for batches to come.

 

[Accidic]

Are the jars safe that way when freezing them? Or do you just leave the lid cracked (which would ruin the possibility of making them sterile ) while freezing?

 

[rockfish42]

Grape Nuts is the only smart cereal for starters, hell it's already malted barley

 

[GodsStepBrother]

Are the jars safe that way when freezing them? Or do you just leave the lid cracked (which would ruin the possibility of making them sterile ) while freezing?

You of course do not fill them all the way to the top, you have to compensate for the freezing of the wort. You do not have to wory about the jars being sterile just yet, when you are ready to make the starter you can thaw a jar and boil it for 15 minutes just as you normally do, and that will kill of anything.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Can you stock a couple pounds of DME and throw a few teaspoons in with the water?

 

[bmick]

Though this advice wont work for your current situation, on your next mash just add an extra amount of water to the mash tun and run that off into jars that you can freeze. Then you have starter wort for batches to come.

Wouldn't this need to be boiled to sanitize the wort for the starters?

 

[audger]

most cerials have DME in them for flavoring. i find it hard to believe that using this for a starter would be cheaper than either using DME, or just getting some 2-row and making a few gallons of wort to use for starters.

if you want to know what exact nutrients yeast need, check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast#Nutrition_and_growth
among many others

 

[GodsStepBrother]

Wouldn't this need to be boiled to sanitize the wort for the starters?

yes you thaw out the wort, and boil it for 15 minutes once you want to prepare a starter.

 

[passedpawn]

Grape Nuts is the only smart cereal for starters, hell it's already malted barley

Hmmm....

 

[Accidic]

You of course do not fill them all the way to the top, you have to compensate for the freezing of the wort. You do not have to wory about the jars being sterile just yet, when you are ready to make the starter you can thaw a jar and boil it for 15 minutes just as you normally do, and that will kill of anything.

Yes, but depending on what beer I'm doing about 1 in 5 (and possibly more in the future as my library grows) from slants with minimal amounts of yeast to start and step up as I go. I've had the DME for it lately and just sterilized the starter wort before innoculation. With the idea of freezing though it's tempting to purchase slants with sanitizable caps (that I can insert a syringe through) and do 10ML+ sterile starters frozen as you describe above. If the Jar can withstand the pressures the tubes should too. Plus I can put the tubes in the jars for extra safety. I followed instructions from here for the basic process and the Yeast seems so much more lively... Either that or I put so much work into them they seem lively.

 

[monsterbronc]

I've been using unrefined cane sugar and water with no problems with dry yeast packets, otherwise I buy the Activator packs.

Just my 2 Cents

 

[Denny]

I've been using unrefined cane sugar and water with no problems with dry yeast packets, otherwise I buy the Activator packs.

Just my 2 Cents

Why are you making a starter with dry yeast?

 

[squirrelly]

Two words. Dry yeast.

It has been my experience that it is even more important to do a big yeast starter with dry yeast.

Honestly, I would just get a 5 pound bag of DME. All the time, energy, and money you will spend on other possibilities you could have just bought a few pounds of DME. I usually get it for about 1.00 a pound from B3. I'm not sure how much cheaper you wish to get, for you only use 1-2 cups per starter. Even a pound lasts us about a month if we brew twice a week.

[email protected]. on tap: easy virtue blonde, fruity monk belgian wit. primary: American pale ale, American stout, blow your top steam, and heffewitzen

 

[BBL_Brewer]

If you really want to save money, do a partial mash with two row and can the wort for future brews.

+2 Pressure canning starter wort is the way to go. Use the cheapest basemalt you can find and do a basemalt only mash. Mash on the low side 148-150 so it's more fermentable. Can it up and you'll always have STERILE starter wort on hand for starters.

 

[KingBrianI]

I've been using unrefined cane sugar and water with no problems with dry yeast packets, otherwise I buy the Activator packs.

Just my 2 Cents

It has been my experience that it is even more important to do a big yeast starter with dry yeast.

Now that the bad advice is leaking out of the beginners forum I think our collective blood pressure is going to start going up, guys.

 

[squirrelly]

According to Jamil and "Can You Brew It," dry yeast must be re-hydrated, and should always be inoculated into a starter before pitching. Too many novice brewers sprinkle the yeast onto of the wort decreasing flocculation, and increasing the risk of contamination. Of course I am one of those brewers who if I do not see high Krousen within 10 hours of pitching I dump the beer.

As I have stated before, I will never use dry yeast in my beers. I don't trust it to be healthy, and viable. Jamil also recommends using liquid yeast in just about every recipe in "Brewing Classic Styles."

[email protected]. on tap: easy virtue blonde, fruity monk belgian wit. primary: American pale ale, American stout, blow your top steam, and heffewitzen

 

[passedpawn]

My troll detector needle is jumping around a bit. I dunno. Display reads "indeterminate". Heck does that mean?

 

[Denny]

According to Jamil and "Can You Brew It," dry yeast must be re-hydrated, and should always be inoculated into a starter before pitching.

Well, not according to Jamil's website mrmalty.com...

"Another case where you generally don't want to make a starter is with dry yeast. It is usually cheaper and easier to just buy more dry yeast than it would be to make a starter large enough for most dry yeast packs. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeasts in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into their product. For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not make a starter. "

If you dump beer if you don't see high krausen in 10 hours, you need to reevaluate things. And a number of recipes in BCS talk about dry yeast, specifically S-23.

 

[Accidic]

Old yeast perhaps?

 

[monsterbronc]

It seems to start up faster if I "wake" the little buggers up before I plop em in there. They get more vigorous sooner, and the faster the yeast can take over the wort, the less likely something else can take hold and give "off" flavors.

I usually just set it up an hour or two before I pitch, and they are quite active when they go in, Ive had CRAZY krausen in just 6 hours or less, depending on the strain and temperature of the wort. I realize its not necessary, but it works. I heard that if you take your yeast out of the fridge or freezer and plop it into something 30-40 deg warmer, it can actually KILL some of the cells through shock. I learned that baking bread, If I drop the packet of yeast into my water around 90-100 degrees with a tablespoon of sugar about 10 minuets before mixing my dough, I actually get a noticeably faster rise time.

 

[Accidic]

I'm not completely convinced a starter with dry is as terrible as implied in all situations. Personally I add nutrient and run it full duration on a stir plate and I've had clearly better results with at least several batches. But I also boil similar DME as the beer it's going into and I don't personally decant anymore. Doesn't seem to make a difference but I do flame the rim out of superstition I guess.

 

[Clementine]

I've been using unrefined cane sugar and water with no problems with dry yeast packets, otherwise I buy the Activator packs.

Just my 2 Cents

The reason behind using maltose as your sugar source is part of the reason for doing a starter is to get the yeast accustomed to eating maltose. Yeast will prepare different enzymes etc for the environment they are in and if you prep them for maltose with Sucrose then the starter is less effective.


Clem

 

[Denny]

I heard that if you take your yeast out of the fridge or freezer and plop it into something 30-40 deg warmer, it can actually KILL some of the cells through shock.

Not true. As long as you're pitching colder yeast into warmer wort, it's actually beneficial. Once the yeast start warming up, they start consuming their glycon reserves. You want that to happen in the wort, not before the yeast reaches the wort. I've been taking yeast, both dry and liquid, out of the fridge just minutes before pitching for years and hundreds of batches. It works great.

 

[rockfish42]

I'm not completely convinced a starter with dry is as terrible as implied in all situations. Personally I add nutrient and run it full duration on a stir plate and I've had clearly better results with at least several batches. But I also boil similar DME as the beer it's going into and I don't personally decant anymore. Doesn't seem to make a difference but I do flame the rim out of superstition I guess.

Isn't it just cheaper to buy two packets of yeast and rehydrate them?

 

[Accidic]

If you have a LHBS perhaps. I do a variety of smaller batches and I sometimes start before realizing I'm low on the yeast I want to use.

Alternatively, try working through 2lbs of muscadines then realizing you have maybe a 1g batch worth of yeast and 20 lbs of perry pears warming in the oven for the lot of it.

The nearest HBS is ~2hrs away with questionable legality tho so I usually choose to mail order.

 

[Accidic]

Oh, and I use nutrient & apple juice for starters for wine with great effect.

For beer starters I try to keep myself in dme of varying types. I've not found good subs but Goya was ok diluted 1:1 and under $1 a bottle.

 

[squirrelly]

To say that we use dry yeast to save money seems kind of silly. Who actually entered this hobby to save money? If that was the case after equipment, time, ingredients, more time, a few more equipment upgrades, and time spent reading every book on the subject and pouring through forums like this, I'd just as soon go buy a Duvel.

A lot people I speak to in my local club use dry yeast either because they have been brewing since homebrewing was legalized, and it was all that was available at the time. People seem to get set in their ways; or there are strains that some people swear are more easily obtainable than liquid.

I just have a hard time believing there is anyone who entered this hobby to simply save money. I personally brew to compete and learn as much as I can about brewing and judging. I guess we all have our own reasons though.

 

[rockfish42]

To say that we use dry yeast to save money seems kind of silly.

1 packets of S-05 for ~3 dollars or 5.75 for WLP001 plus 2 dollars for the 1/2 lb of DME for a 2 quart starter without a stir plate. The only real difference for me comes down to whether or not I have the time to make a starter and if I'm getting it shipped to me in a hot month. Storage is another concern of course dry yeast can happily sit in a freezer for a year plus. If I had more time to brew I'd probably stick with dry yeasts more often.

 

[squirrelly]

So basically 8.00 to ensure you have healthy viable yeast. That seems quite reasonable to me, though I usually buy 5 pound sacks of DME.

Here in CA a six pack of good craft beer is about 10.00 with taxes. I would gladly drop that on each batch to ensure I don't have yeast problems.