CHARACTERFUL British Yeasts

[J_Flint]

Hello all! I'm looking to brew a nice English Bitter. Probably a pretty simple one with MO, a little crystal, and maybe some Victory malt. Fuggles hops.

Anyhoo. I've really been trying to figure out what yeast strain I want to use. I really want to get a better understanding of a true, estery British ale strain.

I have fermented numerous times with WLP002 and find it is just too clean to pick out any sort of yeast character, esters or otherwise from beers I ferment with this yeast. I have heard good things, albeit vague descriptions of the following:

Ringwood (WY1187, WLP005)
WLP023 Burton Ale
WY1469 Yorkshire
WLP006 Bedford

These strains seem to be the most expressive based on what I've read. I've also heard some people rave about 002/1968, but again no matter what I do with it it just seems to have the same profile as any other clean ale yeast I have used.

If anyone has a more detailed description of any of these strains or wants to review their experiences with them I would love to hear about it. I think right now it's a toss up between 005, and 023 because my LHBS carries those.

 

[BrewMan13]

I haven't used all of those, but am a big fan of 1469. Loved it in an oatmeal stout.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Not sure how you get clean out of 002/1968. That's one of the fruitiest non-Belgian yeasts I've used.

I'm a huge fan of WY1469 and WLP007. Though if 1968 doesn't strike your fancy 007 may not either, as they're similar in character but 007 attenuates much better.

 

[J_Flint]

Not sure how you get clean out of 002/1968. That's one of the fruitiest non-Belgian yeasts I've used.

I'm a huge fan of WY1469 and WLP007. Though if 1968 doesn't strike your fancy 007 may not either, as they're similar in character but 007 attenuates much better.

Care to elaborate on how you ferment with 002/1968 to push fruitiness. I just finished a brown porter fermented at 70°F and only pitched a 700ml starter. Very clean. No fruitiness or buttery diacetyl AT ALL! Also did a bitter recently with the same result.

 

[Qhrumphf]

For a 5 gals of Bitter I wouldn't be making a starter at all unless the yeast is really old. You may be slightly overpitching. But I don't think that's the issue. Even with a starter, 1968 should be throwing pretty noticeable cherry-stone fruit esters at 70F. My suspicion, the character you're looking for (based off that other thread) is an oxidative character, not yeast.

 

[J_Flint]

The only reason I make a starter is because I keep a culture going a few batches before buying a new pack. I'll make a starter, harvest a jars worth and pitch the rest/desired amount (Brulosophy method.) I could try making an even smaller starter?

As per the other thread I don't disagree that the character may be oxidative, but I still would like to get a more fruity character from the yeast regardless. It still holds true that my beer with 002 is "too" clean.

I've also toyed with the though of doing a sort of open ferment. Leave the lid off for a few days in the chamber, topcrop, and rouse (featured in an episode of Brewing TV that Michael Dawson did.)

When I make a starter with this yeast and smell the starter it definitely smells fruity so I know at least what to look for there. I agree with your "cherry/stone-fruit descriptor." But it never comes through in the finished batch.

 

[Franktalk]

+1 on the 1469.

 

[J_Flint]

+1 on the 1469.

Care to describe your experience? I've been very interested to try this strain, but hesitant because I would have to special order it.

 

[ba-brewer]

Watch the white labs seasonal vault releases for british yeasts, they tend to have more character than the standard offerings.

I like 1469 it has good flavor brings out the malt well. I don't get as much esters from 1968 and 007 but love how they drop clear. WLP005 needs baby sitting if you don't want diacetyl, but seems to be quite fruity(only used once with bad diacetyl).

Something that has help me get more yeast character is to use a simple grain bill with not much late hop additions. Also give the beer 4 to 6 week of conditioning.
​

 

[J_Flint]

Watch the white labs seasonal vault releases for british yeasts, they tend to have more character than the standard offerings.

I like 1469 it has good flavor brings out the malt well. I don't get as much esters from 1968 and 007 but love how they drop clear. WLP005 needs baby sitting if you don't want diacetyl, but seems to be quite fruity(only used once with bad diacetyl).

Something that has help me get more yeast character is to use a simple grain bill with not much late hop additions. Also give the beer 4 to 6 week of conditioning.
​

How would you achieve a good balance with malt flavor and hops in a bitter? Think Old Speckled Hen. It's not overly hoppy but has a rich malty flavor.
What sort of hop schedule would you follow?

I'm thinking:
7.5# Maris Other
.75# Victory
1# Med. Crystal (Maybe less?)
Maybe some med-light invert sugar?

1.5oz (or 35 IBU) EKG or Fuggles-60min
.5oz-15min
.5oz-0min

 

[J_Flint]

I've got a recipe here in "Homebrew Recipe Bible by Chris Colby"

Betchley's Best Bitter
7.5# Maris
14oz Med Crystal
4oz Biscuit

1.3oz First Gold@60min
.33oz Fuggles@5min
.33oz Fuggles@0min
.5oz Fuggles Dry Hop

WY1968/WLP002 68°F

How does this look? I've never actually made a recipe from this book without changing something, but this one looks promising to me.

 

[ba-brewer]

this book has a recipe for Old Speckled Hen
https://www.amazon.com/CAMRAs-Brew-...your+own+cask+ale&qid=1579228020&sr=8-1-fkmr0

1050sg, 1008fg, 5.6%abv, 32ibu, 35ebc
looks like about 13 or 14% white sugar, 10% crystal, 1% black malt.
39gm challenger for bittering and 13gm golding at 10min

does not list yeast, but 1469 might be OK.

I only had Old speckled hen once or twice but I think WLP006 Bedford Ale yeast gave a similar flavor.

A lot of the recipes in that book very similar.

 

[Franktalk]

For an OSH, I'd go with WY 1084 Irish ale yeast. OSH has a trace of diacetyl and a full mouthfeel. 1469, though a great English yeast, is too crisp and fruity. Also, OSH uses Lyles Golden Syrup as an adjunct sugar, if you want it to be more authentic.

 

[J_Flint]

For an OSH, I'd go with WY 1084 Irish ale yeast. OSH has a trace of diacetyl and a full mouthfeel. 1469, though a great English yeast, is too crisp and fruity. Also, OSH uses Lyles Golden Syrup as an adjunct sugar, if you want it to be more authentic.

What sort of quality does invert sugar like Lyle's produce in an ale? I've never used it but have considered making my own a few times. I do agree that OSH has a very full mouthfeel. That's something I've struggled to achieve with ~5% beers. Any tips in that regard? I have been afraid to use any adjunct sugars for that very reason-im worried it will thin the beer out and seem watery.

 

[Franktalk]

This pretty much nails it for me. I subbed Pilgrim for the Challenger that the original recipe called for and use LGS in place of the light invert. Easily one of the nicest beers I make.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Old Freckled Chick
Brewer: Frank
Asst Brewer:
Style: Strong Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.48 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.73 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 8.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.8 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs 8.0 oz Maris Otter Pale Ale (Bairds) (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 81.1 %
12.0 oz Caramalt Malt - 55L (Bairds) (55.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.1 %
4.0 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 3 2.7 %
4.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4 2.7 %
8.0 oz Invert Sugar (0.0 SRM) Sugar 5 5.4 %
0.60 oz Pilgrim [9.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 19.6 IBUs
0.50 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [6.10 %] - Boil Hop 7 5.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Pilgrim [9.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 8.1 IBUs
0.26 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 9 -
1.00 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [4.80 %] - Boil Hop 10 0.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 11 -

Note: the last EKG addition is for one minute.

 

[Franktalk]

The Lyles leaves a barely perceptible butterscotch character that you get from the real thing. The wheat may also help with mouthfeel; you could use flaked wheat and that would definitely help.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well if you're looking to replicate OSH, then the official line is :
Malt: Pale, Crystal
Hops: Challenger, Pilgrim, First Gold, Goldings

As usual, British grists are way simpler than homebrewers tend to make them....

But there's been no mention yet of fermentation temperatures - OSH is fermented really warm - 23 or 24C, so ~75F - to develop that ester character. Hard to replicate that at homebrew scale but I certainly wouldn't go below 70F.

 

[J_Flint]

Well if you're looking to replicate OSH, then the official line is :
Malt: Pale, Crystal
Hops: Challenger, Pilgrim, First Gold, Goldings

As usual, British grists are way simpler than homebrewers tend to make them....

But there's been no mention yet of fermentation temperatures - OSH is fermented really warm - 23 or 24C, so ~75F - to develop that ester character. Hard to replicate that at homebrew scale but I certainly wouldn't go below 70F.

I do agree that we homebrewers can tend to overcomplicate malt bills in search of a good complex flavor. I know I am guilty of that at least. I think I'm gonna try this recipe in Colby's Homebrew Bible and see how it turns out. I've got everything on hand for that anyhow. Definitely will ferment at at least 70 with WLP002 to get those esters coming out.

 

[ba-brewer]

Curious about the perceived level of diacetyl in Old Speckled Hen, high low or med?

I have only had poorly handled sample in the US but I would say diacetyl was fairly noticeable. Slightly more than what I pick up in Fullers ESB. I would say it is more like a butterscotch and not a fake popcorn butter thing.

 

[J_Flint]

Curious about the perceived level of diacetyl in Old Speckled Hen, high low or med?

I have only had poorly handled sample in the US but I would say diacetyl was fairly noticeable. Slightly more than what I pick up in Fullers ESB. I would say it is more like a butterscotch and not a fake popcorn butter thing.

I couldn't pick up any diacetyl in the 8 nitro cans I enjoyed throughout the month. Then again I have not detected any pronounced diacetyl in any beer I've tried... I think it's one of the best beers I have had in a little my time.

-EDIT- best beers I've had in a long time.

 

[ba-brewer]

I think people have different levels of detection and tolerance. What I pick up as a light butterscotch (burnt butter caramel) flavor in some of my beers my buttery chardonnay hating wife picks up as butter. My son can pick it up by the slick mouthfeel which I cant detect either.

Wyeast 1099 gave me a strong fake butter smell in the fermentor, and WLP005 did it to me in the keg, so I can detect it if it is bad enough.

I wonder if the toffee mentioned in the description might partially be caused by diacetyl.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I find a great Bitter starting point is 5% crystal (my go-tos are Crisp 45L or 77L), 5% invert #1-3 (usually #2), and the rest Maris Otter (Fawcett or Gleneagles). I'll also sometimes sub out some MO for 5-10% flaked barley, though that's more for darker brews (Brown, Mild, Porter) where that's standard fare for me.

 

[ESBrewer]

I wonder if the toffee mentioned in the description might partially be caused by diacetyl.

Yes it could because toffee is essentially butter & sugar. The diacetyl at (too) high level can be really cloying and annoying sweet buttery toffee that just lingers on the whole night... But caramellized sugar flavor can also be crystal malt (cleaner and not so slick feeling / buttery flavor). In the case of OSH it is probably both a controlled amount of diacetyl produced by ale yeast + the relatively high crystal sweetness and of course the fruity esters. I haven't even tasted OSH cause it is not widely available here, but google tells me that it is one of those British beers where certain amount of diacetyl plays a key role in taste. People highly sensitive to diacetyl might find it a bit unpleasant whereas people who are unable to taste diacetyl won't notice it at all.

 

[dwhite60]

I use S04 (which I believe is WLP-002) as my house yeast. It gives me the fruitiness level I like in my beers. It's dry yeast too so no starter require.d.

The older I get the simpler I like things. Dry yeast, simple malt bills with no more than three fermentables, three hop additions at most with two hops at most.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

WY1968, et al, definitely has a distinct, unique aroma. Believe this is "The Style".

 

[ESBrewer]

Regarding the OP. If you are unsure about the character of something like WLP002 it could be nice to brew the same recipe with US-05 and WLP002 or some other estery / less attenuative yeast (Yorkshire yeasts, Windsor) and compare side by side. I'm pretty sure you would notice the difference.

 

[J_Flint]

Regarding the OP. If you are unsure about the character of something like WLP002 it could be nice to brew the same recipe with US-05 and WLP002 or some other estery / less attenuative yeast (Yorkshire yeasts, Windsor) and compare side by side. I'm pretty sure you would notice the difference.

I've considered this. I am quite familiar with WLP002, I just find it very clean. I may do a split batch when I can find a means to do so. Right now it would be a bit difficult on my setup. Limited keg availability and space enough in my ferm chamber for only one fermentor.

 

[ba-brewer]

I've considered this. I am quite familiar with WLP002, I just find it very clean. I may do a split batch when I can find a means to do so. Right now it would be a bit difficult on my setup. Limited keg availability and space enough in my ferm chamber for only one fermentor.

If you have not seen this thread, there is plenty of information on how to get more flavor. I have to admit I have not had great with the main premise of the thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

 

[J_Flint]

If you have not seen this thread, there is plenty of information on how to get more flavor. I have to admit I have not had great with the main premise of the thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...emps-and-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts.221817/

Yeah I've read through the whole thing. I'm gonna try and follow the short fermentation and crash at terminal gravity next time I brew. We'll see how that works I suppose.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting thread. I have been looking at closer at yeasts for more malty English style beers. I got into a rut of using S-04 for all my Browns, Porters and Stouts. I am kinda thinking that I like S-04 better for roasty beers (though I might like Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale better). (I used to brew a bunch of Bitters/ESBs but brew more American Pale Ales and IPAs these days.)

I have started to develop a thing for WLP013 London Ale. I have not used the Wyeast equivalent lately, but the descriptions seem quite different, so I don't know how similar they are.

I just kegged a Porter split with WLP013 and S04. It is not even fully carbed yet, but there is a noticeable difference between the two. The S04 has slight dry tart character reminiscent of an Irish Stout where the WLP013 has more of a rich toffee character which is exactly what I was looking for.

Today I brewed a Dark Mild and pitched WLP013. I am kinda interested in trying out more English yeast, but I am having such good luck with WLP013 and Wyeast 1084 that for now I think I will stick with them (and play around with yeasts for American IPAs).

 

[J_Flint]

Interesting thread. I have been looking at closer at yeasts for more malty English style beers. I got into a rut of using S-04 for all my Browns, Porters and Stouts. I am kinda thinking that I like S-04 better for roasty beers (though I might like Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale better). (I used to brew a bunch of Bitters/ESBs but brew more American Pale Ales and IPAs these days.)

I have started to develop a thing for WLP013 London Ale. I have not used the Wyeast equivalent lately, but the descriptions seem quite different, so I don't know how similar they are.

I just kegged a Porter split with WLP013 and S04. It is not even fully carbed yet, but there is a noticeable difference between the two. The S04 has slight dry tart character reminiscent of an Irish Stout where the WLP013 has more of a rich toffee character which is exactly what I was looking for.

Today I brewed a Dark Mild and pitched WLP013. I am kinda interested in trying out more English yeast, but I am having such good luck with WLP013 and Wyeast 1084 that for now I think I will stick with them (and play around with yeasts for American IPAs).

I've used WLP013 a number of times. I get a sort of mineral/earthy character from it. It doesnt drop bright super quickly either, but it definitely does push a nice malty flavor. Used it in a Christmas ale last month and am fairly happy with it. What sort of characteristics to you get from the Irish Ale yeast?

 

[z-bob]

Another yeast that might be worth a try is K1V-1116. It is unusual for a wine yeast in that it will ferment maltotriose and it does not create phenolics (clove). But it is estery. They might or might not be good esters for an English bitter, I don't know.

I tried it once is a SMaSH using pilsner malt and I believe Sterling hops, and it was a good beer. It didn't age all that well but that could be the yeast fault or any number of other things. It was also such a simple beer there was no place for any faults to hide. I will try K1V again someday in a little darker pale ale or a bitter.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

What sort of characteristics to you get from the Irish Ale yeast?

Hard to say exactly because I used it in a Milk Stout, a Irish Red, a Pumpkin Spice Ale and an Imperial Stout that is still in the fermenter. The first 3 were my first tries at those recipes so I did not have a reference. I would say "clean with a slight fruity character and dry finish." It seems like a very easy yeast to work with (short lag, strong ferment, thick and compact krausen) and it really went to town on the 1.118 Stout with better attenuation that I got with S-04 on the last batches. I am curious to try it in something like an American Pale Ale and hope to try it in a split batch to better isolate the characteristics.

Wyeast says:

Slight residual diacetyl and fruitiness; great for stouts. Clean, smooth, soft and full-bodied. Apparent attenuation: 71-75%. Flocculation: medium. Optimum temp: 62°-72° F​

White Labs says (of WLP004):

This yeast is from one of the oldest stout-producing breweries in the world. It’s great for many beer styles but really shines in malty British styles such as stouts, porters and brown ales. Medium attenuation helps with a dry finish that promotes roasty notes. Esters help round out the overall flavor making a soft drinkable stout.​

 

[J_Flint]

WELL, after enjoying a good Doppelbock, I realized the character I have been longing for is not diacetyl...it's not esters...ITS MALT! All this time I couldn't zero in on straight up malty goodness. I drank a Troegenator and though the character was much more pronounced it had a strong similarity, then after drinking a Samuel Smith India Ale it clicked. It's just got a good strong malty backbone. Which FWIW I enjoyed the hell out of the Sam Smith too. Very similar to Old Speckled Hen, but a little more hop character and even richer maltiness. I've decided I'm going to brew my next bitter with just a touch of either aromatic malt or melanoidin malt to highlight that rich flavor and I'm going to move away from trusty, but dull WLP002, and give WY1469 a shot instead. Anybody think this will yield a closer resemblance to what I'm shooting for?

 

[ba-brewer]

Aromatic/Abbey can give a slight roasted grain dryness to a beer along with the malty aroma. I get a bit of roasted grain flavor from amber malt too. I personally like aromatic/abbey and add it to my house beers sometime.

edit: my house beer is a cross between an American blonde and a british golden ale, mostly north American 2 row with like 5% aromatic or 10 to 20% Vienna or munich, some sort of aromatic NA hops and fermented with a more neutral yeast.