Caramunich in a marzen?

[Dgallo]

Hey folks. After 10 years of all grain brewing, I’m doing a Marzen. I want to hit 9-11 SRMS but don’t want to impart too much malt character. My plan is to use some caramunich and just wanted to hear some perspectives. Here’s the plan now;

60% Vienna
35% Munich I
5% Caramunich II
Double decoction mash

Any flaws with this simple grainbill?

 

[Steveruch]

Hey folks. After 10 years of all grain brewing, I’m doing a Marzen. I want to hit 9-11 SRMS but don’t want to impart too much malt character. My plan is to use some caramunich and just wanted to hear some perspectives. Here’s the plan now;

60% Vienna
35% Munich I
5% Caramunich II
Double decoction mash

Any flaws with this simple grainbill?

A marzen is supposed to be malty. Maybe a vienna lager would be closer to what you want.

 

[Dgallo]

A marzen is supposed to be malty. Maybe a vienna lager would be closer to what you want.

I’m basing it off styles guidelines. Stated that Vienna is usually the base grain and guidelines make it seem like biscuit or victory is out of the guidelines. They also say caramel and over roasted character is a flaw. I’m looking to make as close to a German marzen instead of an American version.

I feel like this grain bill has plenty of malt character from 4.5 lbs of my Munich and and 6.5lb of Vienna. My bigger question is if the .6lb of caramunich will come off too caramely for the guidelines if that help with the recommendation

 

[quantumguy]

with only 5% caramunich II you should be fine. I've made a Marzen with 3% each of Caramunich I and III (plus 82% Vienna, 8% Munich I) and it was very good. This was based on a recipe from George Fix's Marzen book.

 

[RCope]

I brew a very popular Märzen with 6.5 lbs Munich, 6.5 lbs Vienna and 8oz Caramunich III (3.7%) with a single decoction. With a calculated SRM of 9 (might be a bit darker due to the decoction). Brewed 3 iterations and all have been great. I think your recipe is fine...

 

[jdauria]

Think the recipe looks good to me. According to the Mean Brews video for this style, the percentage of base malts used, for the 23 award winning recipes in his study, has been increasing steadily year by year from around 85% in 1990's to around 98% now. So 95% base malts in your recipe are right on that trend.

 

[Steveruch]

The last marzen I brewed was a three way split of munich, vienna, and pilsner.

 

[Miraculix]

Why not give an ish about so called style guidelines, buy yourself two or three prime examples, try them and think for yourself how you might get there? Next thing I would try would be reading through German books or forums to figure out what's the main approach for Marzens in general and how this fits in with my initial idea.

 

[Pennine]

I am not a big fan of caramunich it adds too much raisin for my taste. I would imagine you would get a sweeter American version of a marzen using it compared to the malty German versions.

 

[Deadalus]

I researched and designed a similar marzen recipe which I enjoyed. I used a ratio of 1:1:1.5 of Vienna: Pilsner: Munich (10L) and 4.4% CaraMunich II. I typically add in either Carapils or torrified wheat to most styles, and here it was Carapils. I also added 2oz of light Chocolate malt (250L) for color. Calculated SRM was 11.4. I used the Pilsner because I brew an Octoberfest that uses 50/50 Vienna and Munich. My Octoberfest is more of an American style Octoberfest, not a festbier, and it's been said that Octoberfests like mine are more in line with marzens. The marzen was good, I'd brew it again. I very often brew the Octoberfest, it's always very well received. The Octoberfests I have used decoction and single infusion (Medium body, 152F). I like the decoction better. Edited as I found it was the Marzen I brewed using a Hochkurz mash.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Here’s my recipe for 19 litres

Malts (4.7 kg)​

1.5 kg (31.9%) — Crisp Europils Malt — Grain — 1.7 SRM

1.5 kg (31.9%) — Crisp Light Munich Malt — Grain — 11 SRM

1.5 kg (31.9%) — Crisp Vienna Malt — Grain — 4 SRM

200 g (4.3%) — BESTMALZ BEST Melanoidin Light — Grain — 25.5 SRM

 

[Dgallo]

I am not a big fan of caramunich it adds too much raisin for my taste. I would imagine you would get a sweeter American version of a marzen using it compared to the malty German versions.

Most of the German recipes I saw called for 3-5% of caramunich and then just base malts

 

[Dgallo]

Why not give an ish about so called style guidelines, buy yourself two or three prime examples, try them and think for yourself how you might get there? Next thing I would try would be reading through German books or forums to figure out what's the main approach for Marzens in general and how this fits in with my initial idea.

Brewing this for a comp. I don’t typically care too much about guidelines but I do when it’s a comp beer

 

[Miraculix]

Brewing this for a comp. I don’t typically care too much about guidelines but I do when it’s a comp beer

Ok, that makes sense then.

 

[Dgallo]

Here’s my recipe for 19 litres

Malts (4.7 kg)​

1.5 kg (31.9%) — Crisp Europils Malt — Grain — 1.7 SRM

1.5 kg (31.9%) — Crisp Light Munich Malt — Grain — 11 SRM

1.5 kg (31.9%) — Crisp Vienna Malt — Grain — 4 SRM

200 g (4.3%) — BESTMALZ BEST Melanoidin Light — Grain — 25.5 SRM

Looks good. I am doing a double decoction so I won’t need melanoidin but def looks like I’m in the ballpark percentage wise

 

[Pennine]

Most of the German recipes I saw called for 3-5% of caramunich and then just base malts

This is my favorite version, although I sometimes like to do a 1/3 ratio of pils/Vienna/munich too.

https://www.paulaner.com/us/our-products/oktoberfest-maerzen/

Recipes on this site you mean? Most marzens here are brewed with caramel malts so that would make sense.

 

[Bobby_M]

I've brewed more Marzens than most other styles and screwed around with a lot of ingredients. What I particularly favor;

5 lb (34.9%) — Avangard Avangard Munich Dark — Grain — 15 °L — Mash

5 lb (34.9%) — Avangard Vienna Malt — Grain — 2.8 °L

4 lb (28%) — Avangard Pilsner Malt — Grain — 1.8 °L

4 oz (1.8%) — Weyermann Melanoidin — Grain — 22.7 °L

1 oz (0.4%) — Weyermann Carafa Special II — Grain — 412.8 °L


I've used "cara malts" before and I don't like the malty start and sweet finish it lends. Melanoidin seems to let the finish dry out but still brings the decoction notes. Speaking of which, I REALLY don't think you should decoction mash it. If I were to do that, I'd skip Melanoidin and cara malts.

About 23 IBU including a small low alpha 20 minute addition.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

What I particularly favor

Love Avangard, great malt. Make sure you use continential malts. I find most US malts, especially Vienna are quite a bit different especially when used in large %'s.

I use equal parts Pils, Munich II, equal parts (5-10%) caramunich and Vienna.

Love that your going to do a decoction.

 

[Pennine]

I've brewed more Marzens than most other styles and screwed around with a lot of ingredients. What I particularly favor;

5 lb (34.9%) — Avangard Avangard Munich Dark — Grain — 15 °L — Mash

5 lb (34.9%) — Avangard Vienna Malt — Grain — 2.8 °L

4 lb (28%) — Avangard Pilsner Malt — Grain — 1.8 °L

4 oz (1.8%) — Weyermann Melanoidin — Grain — 22.7 °L

1 oz (0.4%) — Weyermann Carafa Special II — Grain — 412.8 °L


I've used "cara malts" before and I don't like the malty start and sweet finish it lends. Melanoidin seems to let the finish dry out but still brings the decoction notes. Speaking of which, I REALLY don't think you should decoction mash it. If I were to do that, I'd skip Melanoidin and cara malts.

About 23 IBU including a small low alpha 20 minute addition.

View attachment 882702

I'm curious because they mention water in the feedback what you are using?

 

[Dgallo]

I've brewed more Marzens than most other styles and screwed around with a lot of ingredients. What I particularly favor;

5 lb (34.9%) — Avangard Avangard Munich Dark — Grain — 15 °L — Mash

5 lb (34.9%) — Avangard Vienna Malt — Grain — 2.8 °L

4 lb (28%) — Avangard Pilsner Malt — Grain — 1.8 °L

4 oz (1.8%) — Weyermann Melanoidin — Grain — 22.7 °L

1 oz (0.4%) — Weyermann Carafa Special II — Grain — 412.8 °L


I've used "cara malts" before and I don't like the malty start and sweet finish it lends. Melanoidin seems to let the finish dry out but still brings the decoction notes. Speaking of which, I REALLY don't think you should decoction mash it. If I were to do that, I'd skip Melanoidin and cara malts.

About 23 IBU including a small low alpha 20 minute addition.

View attachment 882702

Good point about the double decoction. Next decision will be if I take out the caramunich and keep the decoction or vise versa. Probably leaning to not decoct as I’m double batch brewing that day so it will save me a decent amount of time

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm curious because they mention water in the feedback what you are using?

I'd probably leave it alone if not drop the gypsum by a gram.

 

[Miraculix]

I'd probably leave it alone if not drop the gypsum by a gram.

View attachment 882728

I in my humble opinion, this whole sulphate/chloride ratio thing is way overstressed.

If you have a highly mineralised water, like it's common for most British ales, it will taste like it's highly mineralised. No matter if there's a certain ratio or not. If you have low levels it's low, again, doesn't matter much what's the ratio. People like to put their view in certain boxes, that's why this whole ratio thing came up I guess. High levels of sulphate taste like high levels of sulphate. You cannot undo that by adding more chloride.

For a beer like this, I'd keep mineral levels low, especially the sulphate. It's sharpness doesn't fit here. So I agree with what you've said. Just wanted to add my discontent regarding this ratio thing .

I am not amused!

Now I feel better.

 

[G_robertus]

I'm typically not a fan of crystal malt and definitely not in most continental European styles. I prefer my märzen with Munich I and/or Munich II, Vienna and perhaps Munich III. Roasted malt for colour and nothing else. I tried caramunich II in a triple decocted beer a while back and it is way too sweet for me. I need to check the amount, but I think it was similar to what you are suggesting.

 

[Dgallo]

I'm typically not a fan of crystal malt and definitely not in most continental European styles. I prefer my märzen with Munich I and/or Munich II, Vienna and perhaps Munich III. Roasted malt for colour and nothing else. I tried caramunich II in a triple decocted beer a while back and it is way too sweet for me. I need to check the amount, but I think it was similar to what you are suggesting.

I’ll def report back. I ended up going with this recipe yesterday but dropped to one decoction and only did 2 steps in the mash to try to prevent too much perceived sweetness