Cannot overcome my Hazy IPA oxidation problem!!

[tempestam83]

I'm changing up my hops with each recipe. Usually use mosaic galaxy citra el dorado simcoe in various combos.

I guess it's not so much sour as it's a skunked/bland taste.

Going to thoroughly clean my kettle and fermenter next brew. Also will eliminate bottle wand and use hose clamps.

 

[andylipp]

Neither of the posters that say they have “oxidized” beer note any off flavor, specifically those cardboard-y flavors that are typical of oxidation. I agree with those that think that the color change is far more likely to be a result of more stuff dropping out of suspension over time.

 

[LumberZach]

I don't bottle, I keg. I have never had an issue with my NEIPA's changing like this. If a keg even lasts a month it still looks like the day I kegged it. I do big whirlpool/steep additions for 30min., I do a big dry hop addition on day 3 of fermentation, and I autosiphon from my carboy to my keg. No issues at all. I'm suspecting is has something to do with sanitation.

 

[adamyoung]

+1 on any posters who discussed flavor. The true tell for oxidized beer (or any food) is the presence of stale flavors like paper, cardboard, vinous flavors. If it tastes as it should, the color change would likely be what others have mentioned - either colloidal suspension clearing up, or maybe some other chemical reaction.

 

[theoryno7]

Based on experience, you will never have a great hoppy beer if you are bottling. Maybe good, but not great. IPA's need packaged in kegs with CO2 flushing during every transfer after primary fermentation.

 

[billl]

Just 1 data point....

I had a similar problem. I got a PH meter and found my mash was at 5.7! Dropped that to 5.2 and 99% of the issue went away.

 

[rmchair]

It's not just NEIPA. I've had it happen with a jai jalia clone. I've also seen the same result with factory bottles of Fresh Squeezed that went out of date. (I bought a ton of it okay?)

I have concluded it is degradation of the citrus hops that give the beer an off flavor and make the caramel grain notes more prevalent than a tradition bitter ipa. Who knows, maybe the late add hops aren't preserving the grain components as well. Really bitter ipa seems to hold up fine.

The BEST SOLUTION: mix with a dark, roasty stout or porter out of the tap and enjoy the perfectly balanced result.

 

[AOD]

It's still fascinating what is causing it because most of us have bottled great regular IPAs without issue.

Its the extra or "massive" amount of hops in solution in this beer. Hops oxidize first, so *any* amount of oxygen will take them down quickly and the effect is more noticeable in this style of beer.

 

[AOD]

I have a NE IPA on tap now, so I'll just share my experience with everyone. Be very selective with your ingredients on this beer, get fresh hops. Smell the hops before using. If there is *any* doubt or they don't smell amazeballs awesome, don't use them!

 

[TheHairyHop]

OP, I don't know if I saw it in this thread, but how are you carbing your beer?

 

[Jwswig]

I've been struggling with this issue for about a year myself. It's exactly as they describe, all the subtle flavor and aroma just drops out of the beer, harshly bitter and vaguely malty, not worth drinking. There's always a darkening, some as drastic as pictured, but not always.
I didn't have this problem with the first several ipas I brewed and if anything I was less careful about o2 uptake then. Here's some things I have tried to figure this out:
Got new equipment, tried using a traditional racking cane instead of an auto siphon, added clamps.
Brewed extract only to rule out a problem with the mash. Brewed with straight tap water, filtered water, RO water (with added salts and acid.
I brewed on another guy's system, used his fermenter and fermentation chamber.
Recently I split a batch, just dry hopped one. Same results.
Most telling, I left half of a split batch in the fermentation chamber and bottled the other one. In two weeks both were bad.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've been struggling with this issue for about a year myself. It's exactly as they describe, all the subtle flavor and aroma just drops out of the beer, harshly bitter and vaguely malty, not worth drinking. There's always a darkening, some as drastic as pictured, but not always.
I didn't have this problem with the first several ipas I brewed and if anything I was less careful about o2 uptake then. Here's some things I have tried to figure this out:
Got new equipment, tried using a traditional racking cane instead of an auto siphon, added clamps.
Brewed extract only to rule out a problem with the mash. Brewed with straight tap water, filtered water, RO water (with added salts and acid.
I brewed on another guy's system, used his fermenter and fermentation chamber.
Recently I split a batch, just dry hopped one. Same results.
Most telling, I left half of a split batch in the fermentation chamber and bottled the other one. In two weeks both were bad.

when you used the other guy's system and his fermentation chamber (to be more specific), did you put your fermentation vessel in the chamber, or did you use his own?

are you pitching with a starter?

how would you describe the vigor of your boil?

what is your typical hopping schedule?

 

[Jwswig]

when you used the other guy's system and his fermentation chamber (to be more specific), did you put your fermentation vessel in the chamber, or did you use his own?

are you pitching with a starter?

how would you describe the vigor of your boil?

what is your typical hopping schedule?

On that occasion, I brewed a stout with his kettle (it's what I had ingredients for and it came out pretty good) while simultaneously brewing a 2.5 gallon all extract IPA on the stove with another of his kettles.
It wasn't a super vigorous boil, a little less than I would do at home.
Over the last year my hop schedule has seen more and more hops going in at flameout or during cooling with a just a pinch for 60 minutes.
I used a starter but gave most of it to the stout (a 4 gallon batch), probably not ideal.
Took the stout home in my vessel and used a 3 gallon carboy of his for the IPA. Picked it up 2 weeks later. Looked and tasted fine at bottling, but by the time it carbed up it was no longer worth drinking.

 

[TheHairyHop]

On that occasion, I brewed a stout with his kettle (it's what I had ingredients for and it came out pretty good) while simultaneously brewing a 2.5 gallon all extract IPA on the stove with another of his kettles.
It wasn't a super vigorous boil, a little less than I would do at home.
Over the last year my hop schedule has seen more and more hops going in at flameout or during cooling with a just a pinch for 60 minutes.
I used a starter but gave most of it to the stout (a 4 gallon batch), probably not ideal.
Took the stout home in my vessel and used a 3 gallon carboy of his for the IPA. Picked it up 2 weeks later. Looked and tasted fine at bottling, but by the time it carbed up it was no longer worth drinking.

When did you dry hop?

What do you use for a chiller?

In general, I would say that 2 weeks is too long to be in the carboy with a very hop forward beer. You want to transfer to a possibly zero oxygen container ASAP after primary. Of course, I was not there, but I assume you hit FG well before the 14th day.

Since I keg, I transfer to the serving keg when there is still gravity left in order to give the yeast a chance to consume any O2 in the serving keg

 

[AOD]

When did you dry hop?

What do you use for a chiller?

In general, I would say that 2 weeks is too long to be in the carboy with a very hop forward beer. You want to transfer to a possibly zero oxygen container ASAP after primary. Of course, I was not there, but I assume you hit FG well before the 14th day.

Since I keg, I transfer to the serving keg when there is still gravity left in order to give the yeast a chance to consume any O2 in the serving keg

I'll politely disagree - I went 3.5 weeks (which included 3 dry hop additions) on my last NE IPA before kegging. No issues. I feel the steps above are not required if you are good about oxygen uptake during kegging.

I believe most of the issues here are coming from the cold side and packaging, not hot side. Those of you reporting the issue in bottles, are you able to purge your racking cane lines with CO2 before transferring?

Without a beer gun, I'm not sure it's possible to fill each bottle without introducing oxygen. Though you think the yeast would consume it during bottle conditioning, but perhaps the hops oxidize before the yeast can grab it?

 

[FruityHops]

I've experienced this problem, just as OP and others have described. A highly late kettle and dry hopped beer with a light colored and delicate malt bill looks and tastes great on bottling day. Two weeks later the result is basically undrinkable, with a different color, aroma, and taste.

Kegging is the only solution I know of. Purge the keg by filling it completely with star san and then pushing that out with CO2. Then rack into the liquid post with the pressure relief valve open. Quickly chill the keg to serving temp and pressure. Two weeks later you'll be in much better shape.

You can fill bottles off the keg from that point if you want, though I haven't tried that yet.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'll politely disagree - I went 3.5 weeks (which included 3 dry hop additions) on my last NE IPA before kegging. No issues. I feel the steps above are not required if you are good about oxygen uptake during kegging.

I believe most of the issues here are coming from the cold side and packaging, not hot side. Those of you reporting the issue in bottles, are you able to purge your racking cane lines with CO2 before transferring?

Without a beer gun, I'm not sure it's possible to fill each bottle without introducing oxygen. Though you think the yeast would consume it during bottle conditioning, but perhaps the hops oxidize before the yeast can grab it?

the poster I quoted said the beer in the fermenter and the bottles had the same change. therefore, it is not solely a bottling problem.

my hunch is that the beer is spending too long in an exposed environment, such as a non-closed system fermentation vessel, or there are oxidizing agents being introduced somewhere along the way. things like metallic oxides from chillers or inappropriate valve material can certainly accelerate oxidation. something mentioned in brewing textbooks that doesn't get much talk is that copper and iron, when used in the brewing process, leach into wort/beer and those materials cause oxidation. I'm not saying everyone using copper chillers is screwed, but there may be something that this person is doing to exacerbate the issue.

Jwswig, I think you've been doing a great job going through your process. you are much more dedicated than me at troubleshooting. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[deepbluegroove]

Those that are getting oxidation in bottling, are you testing mash, and boil ph? Have you fully sanitized the post boil equipment. What are you doing with the bottles to properly sanitize them?

 

[tempestam83]

I sanitize and clean everything. Just started using clamps but noticed on my last bottling run there was a tiny drip where the barb from my brewbucket spigot insterts into the 3.8 tubing.

As far as my bottles, I soak them in star sand and rinse with a star san soaked bottle brush.

I'm going to try to bottle even earlier maybe after a week of fermentation, hoping there will be more active yeast to take care of any O2.

 

[sky4meplease]

Those that are getting oxidation in bottling, are you testing mash, and boil ph?

You might want to test post fermentation and pre and post bottling PH as well.

In relation to oxygen, I did some testing a couple years ago taking samples of wort and beer (pre and post bottled) to my local waste water treatment plant testing for dissolved oxygen.
It shed some light on my pre fermentation oxygenation and bottling techniques.
It might be worth a trip to yours to see if they will help. I bribed my guy with beer.

 

[hobomoto]

I'll politely disagree - I went 3.5 weeks (which included 3 dry hop additions) on my last NE IPA before kegging. No issues. I feel the steps above are not required if you are good about oxygen uptake during kegging.

I believe most of the issues here are coming from the cold side and packaging, not hot side. Those of you reporting the issue in bottles, are you able to purge your racking cane lines with CO2 before transferring?

Without a beer gun, I'm not sure it's possible to fill each bottle without introducing oxygen. Though you think the yeast would consume it during bottle conditioning, but perhaps the hops oxidize before the yeast can grab it?

I agree completely with this. No problems leaving my IPAs in primary, NE or otherwise. Its all CO2 in there, no oxygen after the primary fermentation completes.. As long as you transfer properly by pushing with co2 to a purged keg you can avoid o2 introduction.

Also think its a cold side issue. Oxidation or infection.

 

[hobomoto]

Of course I am assuming OP has an air tight primary ferm vessel in my above post... need to have that.

 

[gifty74]

Chiming in as I'm having very similar problems. Not so much the color being noticed, but definitely a drop off in flavor & aroma within about 2 weeks from kegging. I'm getting a noticeable sour taste, which I'm not fond of. Tastes great going into the keg, and after a bit of time this sourness and overall degradation of flavor takes over.

I'm pretty careful about O2, definitely purging the keg after transfer, only doing a primary, etc. When I transfer from my Speidel (with about half of it head space due to my 6 gal batches only filing it up about halfway) I undo the lid and let it sit on top to relieve the pressure to get the transfer going. And then an opening to put the dry hops in (which the hops themselves also add O2) and then again to get the bag out. Purged after the removal.

I'm just wondering, thinking this time I might transfer to the keg with .005 or so points left to go in fermentation, let it finish out in the keg, purging a little each morning. Wonder if that would solve it? Worried though about taking it off the cake and then having it not finish those last 5 or so points. Thoughts? Is this worth a shot?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This is interesting, and I'll add to the mystery with my experience.
I made a single batch and kegged half of it and bottled half (I figured my friends would like some to take home).

The kegged portion had the correct hazy golden color until the 2.5 gal keg kicked.
The bottles started turning brown, then an ugly sludgish grey color within two weeks of bottling.

So I don't think it is a recipe problem or a brew process problem, as has been suggested, because if it were, my kegged portion would have done the same.

FWIW, the beer still tasted fine (though later the hops faded, as is expected), but was so unappetizing to look at you almost didn't want to drink it.

Also, I could pour off the top and it was still reasonably decent in color, but the real grey/brown muddy color came from the sediment in the bottom of the bottle.

 

[JJ900]

That's really interesting. Did you bottle from the keg or did it go into a bottling bucket before bottling?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

That's really interesting. Did you bottle from the keg or did it go into a bottling bucket before bottling?

Bottling bucket. But that has never caused this problem with any other beer when I used to bottle from it before I started kegging a few years ago.

I suspect it is from one of two things, and oxidation is not one of them:
1: hops residue/sediment like oils and particulate plant matter
2: Flaked oats

So hear me out:
I don't think it is from oxidation, because I don't get oxidation flavors. Most of the posters don't (some do mention a funny or off-putting taste, but I think that is coincidental to the color change phenomenon). My bottled NEIPA tastes fine, albeit less hoppy, but that is to be expected.

Since this phenomenon is only observed with NEIPA, I think it is specifically due to one of the ingredients specific to the style. Those ingredients are a massive amount (relative to other beers, including conventional DIPA and IIPA) of unboiled dry hops, and flaked oats, a common ingredient. Yes, flaked oats are used in some other styles, but it's not like you would notice the color change in an oatmeal stout.

I think the observation of the phenomenon in bottles as opposed to kegs is specifically because the bottles allow all that residue still floating in solution to settle out during bottle conditioning and storage. In my case, I know that if I am careful to leave behind the slurry at the bottom of my bottles, it still pours halfway decent (but still not as pretty as from the keg). The reason we don't see it in kegged NEIPA is that the keg is constantly drawing from the bottom, so every time a little of that stuff settles out, we suck it out when we pour a beer and it never gets a chance to accumulate in any large amount like a bottle does. So in essence, the design of the keg prevents the buildup of the precipitated gunk (and since these beers are best enjoyed fresh, we don't let them sit long in the kegs to duplicate bottle aging).

Anyway, a few experiments could confirm or refute my hypothesis (like making a keg of the same NEIPA and letting it sit undisturbed for a month or so and see if it pulls brown), or brewing the same recipe without wheat or oats. I'm not sure I care enough to try either of those, but on my next batch, slated for brewing next weekend, I will try bottling a few bottles from the keg using my Blichmann Beer Gun and see how the bottles end up after sitting a few weeks.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Also when I keg, there are many moments when the beer is either chilled or under pressure and I pour off the sludge that has settled to the bottom. There may be a step in the process where bottlers are missing out on this

 

[FruityHops]

I think the observation of the phenomenon in bottles as opposed to kegs is specifically because the bottles allow all that residue still floating in solution to settle out during bottle conditioning and storage. In my case, I know that if I am careful to leave behind the slurry at the bottom of my bottles, it still pours halfway decent (but still not as pretty as from the keg). The reason we don't see it in kegged NEIPA is that the keg is constantly drawing from the bottom, so every time a little of that stuff settles out, we suck it out when we pour a beer and it never gets a chance to accumulate in any large amount like a bottle does. So in essence, the design of the keg prevents the buildup of the precipitated gunk (and since these beers are best enjoyed fresh, we don't let them sit long in the kegs to duplicate bottle aging).

I have the "Clear Beer Draught System" installed on my kegs. It is just a stainless float that picks up the beer from the top, just below the liquid level. My NEIPA in kegs with this system doesn't turn brown after two weeks, nor does it turn brown after two months. With a yeast like Conan you can notice the beer become more clear after a few weeks as the yeast and presumably other proteins and/or polyphenols drop out of suspension.

Two weeks of bottle conditioning turns my NEIPA brown. They also end up tasting more "malty," more like caramel malt, or a bit like sherry, and the hop flavors are significantly muted.

So, the identifiable differences besides potential oxygen exposure are force carbonation vs natural carbonation and temperature. I would bet that properly purging a keg (fill with sanitizer and pump it all out), pumping in a dextrose solution, and then pumping in the beer and letting it sit at room temp for two weeks to carbonate would not result in brown, ruined NEIPA the way bottling does. The result of such a test should prove or disprove oxidation as being responsible for this change, right?

 

[Jwin]

I have the "Clear Beer Draught System" installed on my kegs. It is just a stainless float that picks up the beer from the top, just below the liquid level. My NEIPA in kegs with this system doesn't turn brown after two weeks, nor does it turn brown after two months. With a yeast like Conan you can notice the beer become more clear after a few weeks as the yeast and presumably other proteins and/or polyphenols drop out of suspension.

Two weeks of bottle conditioning turns my NEIPA brown. They also end up tasting more "malty," more like caramel malt, or a bit like sherry, and the hop flavors are significantly muted.

So, the identifiable differences besides potential oxygen exposure are force carbonation vs natural carbonation and temperature. I would bet that properly purging a keg (fill with sanitizer and pump it all out), pumping in a dextrose solution, and then pumping in the beer and letting it sit at room temp for two weeks to carbonate would not result in brown, ruined NEIPA the way bottling does. The result of such a test should prove or disprove oxidation as being responsible for this change, right?

Or at minimum, filling a purged bottle flat and putting it straight in the fridge and leaving for a few weeks/month then comparing the color to the bottle conditioned ones.

 

[AOD]

Chiming in as I'm having very similar problems. Not so much the color being noticed, but definitely a drop off in flavor & aroma within about 2 weeks from kegging. I'm getting a noticeable sour taste, which I'm not fond of. Tastes great going into the keg, and after a bit of time this sourness and overall degradation of flavor takes over.

I'm just wondering, thinking this time I might transfer to the keg with .005 or so points left to go in fermentation, let it finish out in the keg, purging a little each morning. Wonder if that would solve it? Worried though about taking it off the cake and then having it not finish those last 5 or so points. Thoughts? Is this worth a shot?

Sour taste or sourness or tartness are definitely indicating something else is going on, likely contamination. I would strongly suggest replacing all plastic parts that touch your finished wort and finished beer. Hoses, racking canes, maybe even your fermenter if it's questionable. More importantly, I would confirm you are cleaning well, with a PBW or similar cleaner and hot water soak. Always store equipment clean, then sanitize for use.

Regarding racking the beer off the yeast early, I would suggest adding your first dry hop when the beer has activity still. This helps consume some of the oxygen added by hops. If you rack the beer of the main yeast cake early, you may introduce some new off-flavors like Acetaldehyde (green apples) or Diacetyl (butterscotch) because the yeast consumes these items after it consumes all the basic sugars first. The "English" yeasts do produce more Diacetyl in general - which most folks are using in NEIPA.

I'll just add I tried a NEIPA in a blind taste that was made with Cali Ale (WLP001) and it was certainly still a NEIPA and cloudy.

Cheers,
~Adam

 

[TxBigHops]

subbed.

 

[gifty74]

Well, to update, I learned a ton on this latest batch and thing I resolved several issues I was having. First, I used as many low oxygen brewing techniques as reasonable on my latest NEIPA. Reduced as much splashing on the hot side as possible, submerged my mash return under the liquid surface in the MT for my continuous recirc (direct fire setup), etc. The jury is still out a bit for me on HSA and reducing o2 on that side as not long after that I injected the wort with pure o2 for about 60 sec with a diffusion stone . Anyway, I did as much as I could. Another big one, I checked pH with my higher end Milwaukee meter and without any adjustment nailed 5.5 room temp mash pH, so it might have found that I didn't even need to be adjusting with 85% phosphoric acid, which I'm 98% sure was the source of the 'sourness' I've been noting in the last several IPA attempts. Aside from several noting that there should be no way I was noticing the dosing I was giving it (2.5ml on this last batch), I firmly believe that's what I was detecting, and at a noticeable (and undesirable) level. I then made myself a spunding setup and used that at the end of primary. Transferred to a keg at 1.020 and added dry hops. Biggest issue there has been that fermentation basically stopped when I did the transfer and put the spund setup on. Beer tastes fantastic, just a tad on the sweet side. Bummed it didn't finish out because I think this would've been my best effort to date.

 

[AOD]

Well, to update, I learned a ton on this latest batch and thing I resolved several issues I was having.
Transferred to a keg at 1.020 and added dry hops. Biggest issue there has been that fermentation basically stopped when I did the transfer and put the spund setup on. Beer tastes fantastic, just a tad on the sweet side. Bummed it didn't finish out because I think this would've been my best effort to date.

This was one of my concerns in racking off the yeast early, in addition to the potential 'green' flavors and VDK levels. Bugger to hear.

 

[AOD]

I encountered something interesting yesterday with my NE IIPA on tap, thought I would share. I was out of town for almost 2 weeks for business and personal travel. I went to pour a glass of the NE IIPA (and my new NE IPA on tap!) yesterday and I always blow a little beer out of the line when they've sat for a while. It's basically sitting in 4 feet of plastic tubing, served on a cobra tap head.

I hit the valve and noticed the beer going into the glass was brown/orange in color - then turned bright gold as fresh beer made it into the glass from the bottom of the keg.

Here are both beers...still good and hoppy and not brown. See attached photo.

So there ya go.

~Adam

 

[gifty74]

Looks good. What low DO techniques did you use on those two beers? Had one of mine last night too, and it also is still good, but hasn't been in the keg real long. Very drinkable, but that 1.020 FG is noticeable. Almost had it, get 49 things right, and have that 1 that doesn't and shadows the whole batch.

Also digging into the co2 I've been getting the last few times, filled in town. I called Airgas (another local supplier) and they say they do have a 'food' and separate 'industrial' grade. They come from the same main tank, it's just that one gets tested for FDA approval to be used in beverage dispensing. He also said that my bottle (old steel one) could've been used for welding gas in the past, with argon, and you would never know. That will taint any gas put in there afterward. Sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

Called the guys in town where I've been getting mine filled and he said it's all the same, and "all the restaurants & bars get theirs filled by us". Not sure he really knew, but I've been suspect that their co2 is industrial grade and not really checked for anything. I've read up online and this issue appears to have been debated up and down without a real answer, but I might swap mine out to see if that has an impact on the flavors in the end product. I had been force carbonating too, and now will be doing more natural carbing in the keg.

 

[AOD]

I'm a little unclear why you are trying to keg early before FG is hit. I'm not a believer of hot-side oxidation, so I focus on post-fermentation DO reduction. I do not use secondary fermenter. I always dry hop on yeast and go straight to keg. I purge keg with CO2 and auto-siphon racking cane with CO2 before transfer.

Drinking my NE IIPA brewed on November 22, 2016 and kegged on December 23, 2016 as we speak. Still hoppy and delightful.

~Adam

 

[schematix]

I'm a little unclear why you are trying to keg early before FG is hit. I'm not a believer of hot-side oxidation, so I focus on post-fermentation DO reduction. I do not use secondary fermenter. I always dry hop on yeast and go straight to keg. I purge keg with CO2 and auto-siphon racking cane with CO2 before transfer.

Drinking my NE IIPA brewed on November 22, 2016 and kegged on December 23, 2016 as we speak. Still hoppy and delightful.

~Adam

Kegging before hitting FG is one of the easiest ways to ensure very low DO in the keg (see link in my signature for how to do it the right way). During active fermentation yeast will scavenge essentially all oxygen. The other benefit of racking with a few points to go is you can just seal the keg up (no need for a spund) and get natural carbonation.

HSA and the mechanisms are well documented in professional brewing literature. You don't have to believe it but it's proven and accepted brew science.

 

[Jwin]

See "interesting German brewing PDF" thread when you have 6 hours and $500 to spare

 

[schematix]

See "interesting German brewing PDF" thread when you have 6 hours and $500 to spare

here we go again.....

forget about the hot side process for a moment because that is potentially the more capital intensive depending upon what you have. But you can do the cold side process for far less. you may not be able to replicate their helles but i promise you'll improve your IPA.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I know this is going to be a contrarian opinion here, but as I posted a few weeks ago, I think the brown color that these beers pick up when bottling is NOT oxidation at all, so all this worrying about LODO and other procedures are much ado about nothing on a homebrew scale.

If anybody is interested in why I don't think it's oxidation, I can go into detail, but that's my theory.

For those who DO think it's oxidation, I'd be interested to hear why you think it affects only NEIPAs, and only those that are bottle-conditioned (none of us have had this problem (turning an ugly grey-brown when poured))?