Quantcast

Cannot overcome my Hazy IPA oxidation problem!!

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

tempestam83

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
88
Reaction score
23
Location
Sea Cliff
I've been trying to brew a hazy New England style IPA for several months now. Typical recipe of 2-row/flaked oats and lots of late/whirlpool hops and massive dry hop.

My last 5 batches have all oxidized within a week of bottling. Went from a beautiful bright yellow/orange color at bottling to a dark brown upon first tasting about 10 day later.

I do 3-gallon BIAB. I was using a 5-gallon Big Mouth Bubbler which had too much head space and didn't seal well so I upgraded to a 3.5 gallon stainless SS MegaBucket Mini.

I've tried purging my bottles with CO2 while slowly filling with my bottling wand and trying not to splash. I don't secondary. I bottle straight from the fermenter after 10 days fermentation. I'm still bottling and I know people say kegging is the only way to keep these beers fresh. I just don't have a keg set up right now.

I've been reading the German brewing PDF about Low Oxygen brewing and am going to try the following on my next brew to limit oxygen intake.


-Condition grains with water before crushing
-Boiling mash water for 5 min. then cooling before mashing
- Treating mash water with sodium metabisulfite along with my CaCL and Gypsum additions (about 200:80 CaCL:Sulfate)
-Adding grains slowly to mash water
-Boil at a low simmer instead of a vigorous boil
-Cool wort and add to fermenter slowly. (I usually put it through a strainer on its way into the fermenter to get all the hop gunk out, but it causes lots of splashing)
-Oxygenate and pitch yeast ASAP
-Dry hop on day 2 of fermentation
-Bottle after one week
-Purge bottles with C02 again

I'm still using a copper wort chiller though so looking to replace that with stainless.

Will report back!

Merry Christmas and God bless us everyone!
 

Ashevillain

Level 3 Potions Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
237
Reaction score
39
Location
Asheville
Im not entirely sure oxidation is your problem. Do they taste goood? I think you could be noticing the haze dropping out and precipitating to the bottom of the bottle. With neipas they often look brighter when theyre hazy and young, and clearer yet darker once they age a bit. Im honestly not sure oxidation is an issue for homebrewers like it is for commercial brewing.
 

Ashevillain

Level 3 Potions Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
237
Reaction score
39
Location
Asheville
I dont believe the haziness contributes to the flavor at all, but it does change the mouthfeel. Up to a month + in bottles shouldnt really cause too many issues other than the beer will clear up, which is totally fine. Do you have the same problem with non-neipa grain bills?
 

flars

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
8,629
Reaction score
2,046
Location
Medford, Wisconsin
A couple of possibilities that might be making your beer darker.

Not boiling hard enough to remove excess proteins.
Bottling before the beer has had time for excess yeast and sediment to drop out.

Splashing when pouring to the fermentor is not a problem. It is just a little extra aeration.
 

Braufessor

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,816
Location
NE Iowa
I don't do any of these things:
Condition grains with water before crushing
-Boiling mash water for 5 min. then cooling before mashing
- Treating mash water with sodium metabisulfite along with my CaCL and Gypsum additions (about 200:80 CaCL:Sulfate)
-Adding grains slowly to mash water
-Boil at a low simmer instead of a vigorous boil
-Cool wort and add to fermenter slowly. (I usually put it through a strainer on its way into the fermenter to get all the hop gunk out, but it causes lots of splashing)
-Dry hop on day 2 of fermentation
-Bottle after one week
-Purge bottles with C02 again

I also use a copper immersion chiller.

I do this:
-Oxygenate and pitch yeast ASAP

I do keg. My beers are not oxidized.... at least not to the point of changing color or tasting bad.

Things that stick out to me, or occur to me:

*Bottling wand?? Those can be problems for introducing oxygen.
*200 Chloride seems high to me. I like 140:70 or 120:120 was something I did recently that really seemed to come off nice.
*That is a fast turn around for bottling
*Bad hops? What hop combo are you using?
*When you bottle..... I find it makes a difference to cap quickly. I know it is different, as I use a beer gun from a keg. However, I fill a bottle cap a bottle....fill/cap. Often times people will fill a dozen bottles and then cap them, repeat...

Is every beer you brew oxidized? Have they always been oxidized? Have you brewed and bottled other beers successfully?

No real answer, but those are some observations.
 

sky4meplease

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
575
Reaction score
140
I've been trying to brew a hazy New England style IPA for several months now. Typical recipe of 2-row/flaked oats and lots of late/whirlpool hops and massive dry hop.

How much is a "massive" dry hop?
 

brew703

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,178
Reaction score
440
Location
Outside of Nola
I had issues with what I call oxidation with NEIPA's. I too brew BIAB 3 gall batches and bottle. All three I brewed were oxidized. For me, mine never had that nice yellow color- they were always more amber color and the first two weeks they were somewhat hazy then cleared (didn't use any finning). taste was decent to good early. Still have a sixer from a few months ago that I haven't touched. going to put one in the fridge today and check it tomorrow or sat.
I don't have a closed transfer system so I just bottled like I normally do which I've never had any issues except with the NEIPA's. So I just gave up on NE IPA's for now and just focus on APA's.
 

Ashevillain

Level 3 Potions Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
237
Reaction score
39
Location
Asheville
I listened to a panel discussion with the BM at Alchemist that cooling down beer as quickly as possible is ideal. Not as easy to do with bottles but if you test them often just be sure to toss them in the fridge asap once theyre carbed.

I've never tried to make a NEIPA, but i always make aroma/flavor forward ipas and have never had an issue.

What could it be about NEIPAS that make them so much more vulnerable to oxidation?
 

JJ900

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
178
Reaction score
22
Location
Boston
What could it be about NEIPAS that make them so much more vulnerable to oxidation?
I've been wondering this myself as I bottle, BIAB, and have had what I think is oxidation on some but maybe not all NEIPAs. I wonder if it has something to do with a larger amount of hops floating atop the beer starting at day 4 or so of fermentation. Maybe an interaction between that and the types of yeast used? Then we bottlers have to bottle condition at a higher temp for a good amount of time than the keggers. The two batches that I suspect were oxidizing prematurely both had Simcoe in the dry hop.
 

sky4meplease

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
575
Reaction score
140
I read through the Hops book to see if I could find a smoking gun there but all I could find was some dry hop when 1-1.5 degree Plato from terminal gravity to purge oxygen from dry hopping and others say the product has to to handled cold all the way through.
 

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
212
Location
Lansing
I as well have had issues with oxidation hitting these beers. It wasn't until I started doing larger hop stands, dry hopping along with less flocculant yeast, I typically use Conan or 1318, that all this started. I've had beers turn in as little as 2 weeks. So a few batches back I changed some Inge that have helped atleast prolong the life of these beers for up to a month to where if they do turn there's only a couple left. So first thing I did was stopped cold crashing for extended period of time now I'll do it for 12 hrs max just to drop the dry hops and some of the yeast. When bottling now I will fill a bottle and set a cap on it and do this up to 6 bottles then crimp them all down, before I'd fill 12-20 bottles then cap and crimp, sounds like such a little thing but it's made a lot of difference. Lastly I don't let my beer sit to bottle condition for so long, before I was waiting 10-14 days before putting the beer in the fridge while it sat at 70-73 deg to carbonate now I throw all the beer in the fridge on day 7. I also only do one giant dry hop instead of two just to cut down on o2 exposure. I think the biggest thing to help was reducing the cold crashing time and filling and capping right away when bottling.
 

brick_haus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
296
Had oxidation problems myself. I had better luck once I started doing a co2 pressure transfer from the fermenter and purging the conical with co2 during the dry hop or any other time it was opened to prevent air from entering.
Also keep about 1-2 psi co2 on it during cold crash to prevent sucking air.
Norcal Brewing Solutions made up the special fittings that I use to do this.

Zero signs of oxidation in my super hoppy "Queenies" IIPA now.

I also DH when about .003 from terminal gravity. This seemed to improve that wonderful aroma that us hop heads seek! But I digress...
 

JJ900

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
178
Reaction score
22
Location
Boston
Olotti how many days into fermentation is your single dry hop?
 

hobomoto

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2015
Messages
136
Reaction score
40
i was never able to get commercial quality hoppy brightness and fruitiness until I started kegging... but thats just my experience. I now brew IPAs I would pay 8-10 dollars a 22 for, quality wise.

I started out with 3 gal biab and moved to kegging with a 2.5 gal torpedo keg and a paintball co2 cylinder and a cobra tap... It only took up about 35-40% of the lowest shelf in my regular old kitchen fridge and cost about 150 total... not "cheap" but relatively cheap to start kegging since I didn't need a dedicated fridge.

That allowed me to see massive improvement in my hoppy beers for very little commitment. Try it if you can!
 

bkboiler

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
892
Reaction score
288
Location
San Diego
surprisingly and maybe it's just me, but finally switching from my old autosiphon to a standard racking cane (with an SS hoseclamp to the tubing) solved my oxidation problem straightaway.
you could be oxidizing either in the xfer to the bottling bucket or from that bucket to the bottle.
i'd ditch your auto-fill wand in favor of a simple tube with a pinch clamp. add hose clamps on ur hose barbs if u want (they're only like $0.5/ea).
 
Last edited:

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
212
Location
Lansing
i'd ditch your auto-fill wand in favor of a simple tube with a pinch clamp. add hose clamps on ur hose barbs if u want (they're only like $0.5/ea).
I'd be interested to see this setup. Your spot on in that I def think my issues are going from primary to bottling bucket and then during filling.
 

lilbova3

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
378
Reaction score
68
So much good info here. My last beer that I bottled before I moved to kegging came out the best and here might be why but I'm not certain it is...

I did turn that beer around about as quick as you did, only fermented for about 10 days.

I don't think there's a need to cold crash for an extended period of time. 12-18 hours is enough. If you do cold crash awhile, maybe take off your airlock and replace with sanitized foil.

Someone said it and I agree, there's no need to wait for 14 days to carbonate. The beer I bottled was good to go in 4 days at room temp, however the OG was only 1.050ish. So it was able to carb quicker. Longer conditioning will be needed for higher OG I bet.

I would get rid of the bottling wand. I thought of an idea after I stopped bottling that might help with splashing. Get tubing long enough to fill straight from the bucket/fermenter without a wand. It'll take some guessing and checking on high much to fill the bottle because you'll be having to close and open the spigot to control flow but it might help.

All my beers now don't suffer from oxidation after kegging. It is a major investment but so worth it.
 

JJ900

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
178
Reaction score
22
Location
Boston
It's still fascinating what is causing it because most of us have bottled great regular IPAs without issue.
 

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
212
Location
Lansing
It's still fascinating what is causing it because most of us have bottled great regular IPAs without issue.
This is just my guess but I thinks it's gotta do with the hop oils binding to the less floccing yeast and the o2 binds easier to the hop oils in suspension or somehow these less floccing yeasts are more susceptible to o2 binding to them. It's the only thing I can think of. When I do a pale ale with half the hops, small hopstand and 3 oz dry hop using 05 yeast I can go two months and the beer is still good and I'm using all the same fermenting, racking and bottling techniques.
 

Magnus314

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
448
Reaction score
108
Location
Wellington
I've had this problem with NEIPA's too. I think it's the hop stand. 20+ minutes at 170>150 sounds like an oxidation nightmare.

My best have been: hops at 60, 10, 0 - chill and transfer to fermenter ON TOP OF YEAST (NOT pitch once it's full) - and then dry hop in the fermenter and in the keg.

Great hop saturation all the way through til they kick!

If you have to bottle, them, make sure you get a good bit of yeast in the bottles. They'll scrub whatever's left in the headspace, but the damage done by the hopstand is already done by then.
 

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
212
Location
Lansing
I've had this problem with NEIPA's too. I think it's the hop stand. 20+ minutes at 170>150 sounds like an oxidation nightmare.

My best have been: hops at 60, 10, 0 - chill and transfer to fermenter ON TOP OF YEAST (NOT pitch once it's full) - and then dry hop in the fermenter and in the keg.

Great hop saturation all the way through til they kick!

If you have to bottle, them, make sure you get a good bit of yeast in the bottles. They'll scrub whatever's left in the headspace, but the damage done by the hopstand is already done by then.

It was my understanding that any O2 introduced at this point is not a problem, it's after fermentarion is complete And the yeast have done their job that O2 introduction or exposure is the real problem as there's nothing left to scrub out the O2 that's been introduced into the solution.
 

Magnus314

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
448
Reaction score
108
Location
Wellington
At boiling or above, the wort won't dissolve oxygen. At pitch temps or below, oxidation moves very slowly.

At anything like mash temps, +/-, it's the worst of both worlds.
 
Last edited:
OP
T

tempestam83

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
88
Reaction score
23
Location
Sea Cliff
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482589228.130564.jpg

Here's what I'm talking about. The first pic is what I'm going for with this beer. Hazy golden yellow color. This is taken on bottling day. Couldn't be happier.

Then not more than two weeks later it turns into this gross brown sour tasting mess. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482589328.864153.jpg

I usually dry hops 3-4 oz three days into fermentation. Going to try the steps I outlined above to limit O2 preboil as per the LoDO German brewing PDF.

I'm thinking to bottle even earlier to allow more yeast to scavenge and O2 in the bottle. Thoughts?
 

Ashevillain

Level 3 Potions Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
237
Reaction score
39
Location
Asheville
It's still fascinating what is causing it because most of us have bottled great regular IPAs without issue.

Yeah i keep wondering too. I just did a large dry hop on two batches of almost the same non Neipa IPA. The bucket with safale 05 amd 4 gals had lost its krausen but the 6 gal with 1056 was still fermenting out when i added them. Will let this thread know if there are any oxidation issues specifically related to dry hopping during active ferm.
 

sky4meplease

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
575
Reaction score
140
Then not more than two weeks later it turns into this gross brown sour tasting mess.

I would be curious what is going on with your PH during this transformation.
That is pretty dramatic and sounds more like infection than a process issue.
Are your bottles gushing? How is the carbonation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: AOD

specharka

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
937
Reaction score
318
View attachment 381662

Here's what I'm talking about. The first pic is what I'm going for with this beer. Hazy golden yellow color. This is taken on bottling day. Couldn't be happier.

Then not more than two weeks later it turns into this gross brown sour tasting mess. View attachment 381663

I usually dry hops 3-4 oz three days into fermentation. Going to try the steps I outlined above to limit O2 preboil as per the LoDO German brewing PDF.

I'm thinking to bottle even earlier to allow more yeast to scavenge and O2 in the bottle. Thoughts?

FWIW limiting preboil oxidation isn't going to affect your cold side process -- there's no dissolved oxygen in boiling wort.
"Gross brown sour" is far more indicative of infection, not oxidation, especially on that magnitude. I would suggest reviewing your sanitation process and consider exchanging your cold side plastic with new materials.
And if you're still experiencing this issue after troubleshooting your process, buy the whole cow before you complain about spoiled milk. Limiting preboil oxygen reuptake is useless without a closed circuit fermentation loop.
 

Magnus314

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
448
Reaction score
108
Location
Wellington
Next time try it without the hopstand and don't strain it.

Seems like a straightforward way to confirm or rule out those two things, and those two are the most obvious process differences between this and a "regular" IPA.
 

shortyz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
506
Reaction score
151
infected hops when you dry hopped? that change in color is incredible.... never had that happen.
 

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
212
Location
Lansing
That pic is incredible. When my beers have oxidized they still retained an orangey color but it was just a muddy dark orange instead of the vibrant orange and the beer never tasted sour it mostly was more bitter, sharper and all the nose and juiciness was gone. That looks like a brown ale, there's gotta be more at work there than just oxidation.
 

brick_haus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
1,053
Reaction score
296
Same color change that I experienced. I posted earlier in this thread.
Mine was sweet/stale not sour.
Maybe an oxidized infection[emoji615]️[emoji615]️
 

Braufessor

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,816
Location
NE Iowa
FWIW limiting preboil oxidation isn't going to affect your cold side process -- there's no dissolved oxygen in boiling wort.
"Gross brown sour" is far more indicative of infection, not oxidation, especially on that magnitude. I would suggest reviewing your sanitation process and consider exchanging your cold side plastic with new materials.
+1 to this. That is not oxidation... especially when you add the descriptors "gross" and "sour".
 

Brew_G

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
835
Reaction score
191
Location
Fairfax County
I've had the same issue as the OP noticed with my first two attempts at NE IPAs, though that picture was really shocking. Mine haven't been that dramatically different from bottling to first pour.

That pic is incredible. When my beers have oxidized they still retained an orangey color but it was just a muddy dark orange instead of the vibrant orange and the beer never tasted sour it mostly was more bitter, sharper and all the nose and juiciness was gone. That looks like a brown ale, there's gotta be more at work there than just oxidation.

This is more like my issue - color, aroma, and flavor problems are exactly the same as mine. I posted this in a different thread, but here's what my most recent attempt looked like:

Bottling day. Grain to bottle in about ten days:
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482642025.724057.jpg

Day 8 after bottling. Carbed up nicely, if maybe slightly overcarbed:
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1482642092.038991.jpg

The second picture comes out a bit darker than it really is, but the difference is remarkable. I haven't had any similar issues with other beers other than my NE IPAs, and I'm starting to think that the massive hop addition at 170°F for 30 minutes plays a big part.

I'll be building a kegerator in the next few weeks, so it'll be interesting to see if I still have the same problem with these beers in my new setup. But I've got to brew an RIS first...
 

Jwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,970
Reaction score
607
Location
nashville
I'm leaning towards something to do with the massive amounts of protein in suspension combined with oxygen uptake.
I would challenge someone with this issue to refrigerate a bottle on bottling day and compare after two weeks. Just for curiosity to test if temperature has an effect.
I'll echo, closed loop all the way. Suckback in cold crash-o2
Poorly fitting hose on autosiphon-o2
Worn out gasket inside autosiphon-o2

Also, maybe skip oxygenation at pitch and just pitch a big active starter.

Question: is the hop flavor heavily diminished? To the point of only bitterness?
 

Braufessor

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,816
Location
NE Iowa
Another aspect that is really important in beer color is lighting. Now, not saying there is not more at play than just lighting, because there is some pretty dramatic differences. However, if you take the same beer and photograph it in different lighting (from the back, vs the front, or fluorescent vs. outdoor, etc) it is really surprising how different a beer will look. While this is not "as" dramatic.... check out these two beers - they are literally the same glass of beer - pictures taken 1 minute apart - just different light.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7509949&postcount=457
 

Braufessor

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
4,194
Reaction score
1,816
Location
NE Iowa
Here is another one I did right now, same beer, 30 seconds apart... outdoor lighting would have made an even bigger difference, but it is too dark out right now. A bigger glass with more beer in it makes a difference too.... But, 7:30 am is a touch early for a full pint;)

However, any time you compare color of beer - it has to be under identical lighting or it will skew it to a surprising degree.

lightJPG.jpg


dark.jpg
 

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
212
Location
Lansing
I'm leaning towards something to do with the massive amounts of protein in suspension combined with oxygen uptake.
I would challenge someone with this issue to refrigerate a bottle on bottling day and compare after two weeks. Just for curiosity to test if temperature has an effect.
I'll echo, closed loop all the way. Suckback in cold crash-o2
Poorly fitting hose on autosiphon-o2
Worn out gasket inside autosiphon-o2

Also, maybe skip oxygenation at pitch and just pitch a big active starter.

Question: is the hop flavor heavily diminished? To the point of only bitterness?

I oxygenate before pitching with pure 02 for 60 sec, do it on all my beers and I hopstand for 60 min on most of my beers. I think the op's issue is more than just a hopstand.
 

Ashevillain

Level 3 Potions Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
237
Reaction score
39
Location
Asheville
I cant see how it could be the hopstand. I think it might be the grist or sanitation. I guess oxidation is possible but ive bottled many ipas with hopstands no problem. Maybe the neipa malt bill is unusually prone to oxidation though? Since its became popular recently maybe not that many people have had the chance to report on the effects of bottle conditioning neipas. Pretty suspect of a style specific tendency considering there are two people having similar problems that we havent been able to identify yet...
 
Top