Cannot overcome my Hazy IPA oxidation problem!!

[TheHairyHop]

I know this is going to be a contrarian opinion here, but as I posted a few weeks ago, I think the brown color that these beers pick up when bottling is NOT oxidation at all, so all this worrying about LODO and other procedures are much ado about nothing on a homebrew scale.

If anybody is interested in why I don't think it's oxidation, I can go into detail, but that's my theory.

For those who DO think it's oxidation, I'd be interested to hear why you think it affects only NEIPAs, and only those that are bottle-conditioned (none of us have had this problem (turning an ugly grey-brown when poured))?

I encountered something interesting yesterday with my NE IIPA on tap, thought I would share. I was out of town for almost 2 weeks for business and personal travel. I went to pour a glass of the NE IIPA (and my new NE IPA on tap!) yesterday and I always blow a little beer out of the line when they've sat for a while. It's basically sitting in 4 feet of plastic tubing, served on a cobra tap head.

I hit the valve and noticed the beer going into the glass was brown/orange in color - then turned bright gold as fresh beer made it into the glass from the bottom of the keg.

NEIPAs contain massive amounts of hops, which contain oils that are very susceptible to oxidation. the bottling process really allows for quite a bit of O2 to enter, along with not generally maintaining low oxygen environments prior to packaging (not many people ferment in a closed environment and then transfer to bottle). It seems like AOD encountered this when the beer was left sitting in an oxygen permeable tube while they were gone for a while. Just my hunch

 

[raymarkson]

I know this is going to be a contrarian opinion here, but as I posted a few weeks ago, I think the brown color that these beers pick up when bottling is NOT oxidation at all, so all this worrying about LODO and other procedures are much ado about nothing on a homebrew scale.

If anybody is interested in why I don't think it's oxidation, I can go into detail, but that's my theory.

For those who DO think it's oxidation, I'd be interested to hear why you think it affects only NEIPAs, and only those that are bottle-conditioned (none of us have had this problem (turning an ugly grey-brown when poured))?

I am interested in hearing why you don't think it's oxidation. What is your theory?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I am interested in hearing why you don't think it's oxidation. What is your theory?

Okay, so bear with this fairly long explanation.
I made a batch of NEIPA several months ago and kegged half of it while bottling the other half.

The kegged portion had the correct hazy golden color until the 2.5 gal keg kicked.
The bottles started turning brown, then an ugly sludgish grey color within two weeks of bottling.

So I don't think it is a recipe problem or a brew process problem, as has been suggested, because if it were, my kegged portion would have done the same.

That would leave oxidation as a likely culprit, but here’s why I don’t think it’s oxidation:

1. Very few of us observing the phenomenon are reporting oxidation flavors – only discoloration.
Some do mention a funny or off-putting taste, but that could be coincidental to the color change phenomenon. My bottled NEIPA tastes fine, albeit less hoppy over time, but that is to be expected.
2. This phenomenon has only come to the fore recently with the surge in brewing NEIPAs. Why has this not been reported before, especially with the highly-hopped West Coast IPA craze that has been going on for years? If it were merely the product of oxidation of hops oils, we would have seen this in the millions of gallons of WC IPAs that have similar levels of hops, although they lean toward more boiled hops where NEIPAs lean toward late-addition hops. In either case, there is a lot of hops, but only one is turning nasty brown in the bottle.
3. The Hairy Hop has suggested that hops oils are very susceptible to oxidation, but that is contra-indicated in beer by both the preservative qualities that hops are known for, and that, again, we haven’t seen it in WCIPAs (It could be argued that NEIPAs have more hops, but when you compare to many of the more aggressively hopped WCIPAs like Stone products, there is a comparable amount).
So my conclusion is that if it were hops oxidation we would have seen it before with other hoppy beers.

Okay, so if I don’t think it’s hops oxidation, what DO I think it is?
Since this phenomenon is only observed with NEIPA, I think it is specifically due to one of the ingredients specific to the style.
1: large amounts of unboiled, late-addition hops residue/sediment like oils and particulate plant matter
2: Flaked oats

Yes, flaked oats are used in some other styles, but it's not like you would notice the color change in an oatmeal stout.

I think the observation of the phenomenon in bottles as opposed to kegs is specifically because the bottles allow all that residue still floating in solution to settle out during bottle conditioning and storage. In my case, I know that if I am careful to leave behind the slurry at the bottom of my bottles, it still pours halfway decent (but still not as pretty as from the keg). The reason we don't see it in kegged NEIPA is that the keg is constantly drawing from the bottom, so every time a little of that stuff settles out, we suck it out when we pour a beer and it never gets a chance to accumulate in any large amount like a bottle does. So in essence, the design of the keg prevents the buildup of the precipitated gunk (and since these beers are best enjoyed fresh, we don't let them sit long in the kegs to duplicate bottle aging).

With my nasty grey/brown bottled NEIPA, I could pour off the top and it was still reasonably decent in color, but the real grey/brown muddy color came from the sediment in the bottom of the bottle. This tells me that most of the problem is in the precipitates and not in the solution.

Anyway, a few experiments could confirm or refute my hypothesis (like making a keg of the same NEIPA and letting it sit undisturbed for a month or so and see if it pulls brown), or brewing the same recipe without wheat or oats. I'm not sure I care enough to try either of those, but on my new batch, slated for kegging this week, I will try bottling a few bottles from the keg using my Blichmann Beer Gun, which purges the bottles with CO2 before filling, and see how the bottles end up after sitting a few weeks.

 

[hobomoto]

My theory: I think its a well known fact that excess protein in beer can lead to instability. Oats add protein which equals that haze you see that becomes discolored sediment in your bottle. Your beer in the keg is kept cold plus its purged of oxygen, hence it stays stable. The bottles are kept warm plus there is oxygen introduction, hence they become unstable.

With regards to WC IPAs, they don't have the protein content. Hence, not much color change. They will still lose hop aroma to oxygen introduction though.

When people talk about hops preservative qualities, this has to do with micro organisms. Not oxidation. They hop oils are oxidized very easily and aroma is lost or changed. This is not the same type of oxidation that leads to classic off-flavors such as cardboard/sherry. Here we merely are talking about hop aromatic oil oxidation which happens much quicker.

 

[hobomoto]

For what its worth, I keg the NEIPA recipes I have brewed and have not had the discoloration issue. I limit oxygen introduction from the point of putching yeast on (push to purged keg with co2).

 

[JJ900]

Cavpilot, I like your thinking. However, when I have cans of e.g. Trillium IPAs they stay fresh, light in color, and murky for some time. Those cans are not getting the disruption caused by the keg when serving and cans would have the chance to settle like bottles. Unlike bottles, they didn't go through the bottle conditioning process with warmer temps.

For those of you who keep pointing out that kegging works better, I think we know that. That is the point of this thread. It would be nice to isolate why bottle conditioning makes an apparent difference in NEIPAs.

FWIW, some of my bottle conditioned IPAs have followed the Trillium recipe, so no flaked anything, but they still do include white wheat. For most of them I still experience a kind of off flavor that I thought was vegetal, but maybe astringent or tart, the closest "thing" it tastes like is tea leaves. I am confident this is not a contamination issue - there would be other signs and why would I have contamination issues only with NEIPAs? I've tried reducing the dry hop to one, approx 4 days into ferment with some but not total success.

At some point I may start with a regular good IPA recipe and change one ingredient at a time to work its way to a NEIPA and see where it gets worse.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Cavpilot, I like your thinking. However, when I have cans of e.g. Trillium IPAs they stay fresh, light in color, and murky for some time. Those cans are not getting the disruption caused by the keg when serving and cans would have the chance to settle like bottles. Unlike bottles, they didn't go through the bottle conditioning process with warmer temps.

That's a good point.
I may be totally wrong on this - it could be oxidation all along, but given some of my observations, that seems to simple an answer.
That said, I am kegging my latest batch today, and sometime after if carbonates, I will fill a dozen or so bottles from my Beer Gun and see if they experience it.
If they do, it's probably not oxidation (or not entirely oxidation - there could always be more than one factor at play).
If they don't turn, it very well could be oxidation.

 

[Jwin]

That's a good point.
I may be totally wrong on this - it could be oxidation all along, but given some of my observations, that seems to simple an answer.
That said, I am kegging my latest batch today, and sometime after if carbonates, I will fill a dozen or so bottles from my Beer Gun and see if they experience it.
If they do, it's probably not oxidation (or not entirely oxidation - there could always be more than one factor at play).
If they don't turn, it very well could be oxidation.

Maybe bottle condition a couple(carb drops)?
Then beer gun a couple.
Then compare in 4 weeks?
That way you can see if the natural carbonation and time at room temp affects it and how much vs keg vs force carbed bottles.

 

[TheMadKing]

HSA and the mechanisms are well documented in professional brewing literature. You don't have to believe it but it's proven and accepted brew science.

source?

 

[doug293cz]

...

I think the observation of the phenomenon in bottles as opposed to kegs is specifically because the bottles allow all that residue still floating in solution to settle out during bottle conditioning and storage. In my case, I know that if I am careful to leave behind the slurry at the bottom of my bottles, it still pours halfway decent (but still not as pretty as from the keg). The reason we don't see it in kegged NEIPA is that the keg is constantly drawing from the bottom, so every time a little of that stuff settles out, we suck it out when we pour a beer and it never gets a chance to accumulate in any large amount like a bottle does. So in essence, the design of the keg prevents the buildup of the precipitated gunk (and since these beers are best enjoyed fresh, we don't let them sit long in the kegs to duplicate bottle aging).

With my nasty grey/brown bottled NEIPA, I could pour off the top and it was still reasonably decent in color, but the real grey/brown muddy color came from the sediment in the bottom of the bottle. This tells me that most of the problem is in the precipitates and not in the solution.

The dip tube does not pull all sediment off the bottom of a keg. It only clears the sediment from an area an inch or two in diameter from right around the tip of the tube. Look inside an empty keg sometime (without disturbing it too much first.) You should see significant amounts of sediment on the bottom (unless you did a long secondary or cold crash to clear the beer before kegging.)

You will get less sediment in your glass from a keg pour, so if your theory is that the yuck color is coming from sediment in the glass, then there might be some validity to your theory. But if your theory is the yuck comes from the beer sitting on sediment, then it doesn't appear to be valid.

Here's a simple experiment to try: Open a bottle, stick a tube half way towards the bottom of the bottle, and siphon half the bottle into a glass. If it doesn't have the yuck color, then sediment in the glass is strongly implicated. If it does have the yuck color, then your kind of stuck with the oxidation hypothesis (remember the keg has sediment on the bottom, just like a bottle.)

Edit: I see I missed a paragraph on first reading, and that you pretty much did the top of the bottle experiment already.

...

I will try bottling a few bottles from the keg using my Blichmann Beer Gun, which purges the bottles with CO2 before filling, and see how the bottles end up after sitting a few weeks.

Purging with a beer gun is not effective at keeping air out of a bottle. Here's why: After you purge the bottle, you fill it to the top with beer - there is no more CO2 in the bottle (except what is already dissolved in the beer.) Then you pull the beer gun fill tube out of the bottle, leaving an inch or so of headspace. What's in that newly created headspace? It's not CO2, it's air.

Brew on

 

[schematix]

source?

Here's a good start.....

W. Kunze. Technology Brewing and Malting. VLB Berlin, 2007

L. Narziss. Abriss der Bierbrauerei. Wiley-VCH, 2005

G. Fix. Principles of Brewing Science: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues.
Brewers Publications, 1999

 

[TheMadKing]

Here's a good start.....

W. Kunze. Technology Brewing and Malting. VLB Berlin, 2007

L. Narziss. Abriss der Bierbrauerei. Wiley-VCH, 2005

G. Fix. Principles of Brewing Science: A Study of Serious Brewing Issues.
Brewers Publications, 1999

Thanks! I'll give those a read

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Purging with a beer gun is not effective at keeping air out of a bottle. Here's why: After you purge the bottle, you fill it to the top with beer - there is no more CO2 in the bottle (except what is already dissolved in the beer.) Then you pull the beer gun fill tube out of the bottle, leaving an inch or so of headspace. What's in that newly created headspace? It's not CO2, it's air.

Brew on

While that's true, that the one inch or so of headspace you suck back into the bottle is air, that is a whole lot less exposure and a tiny amount of oxygen compared to filling a bottle full of plain air (what would happen without the initial CO2 purge). PLus, I always cap with O2 absorbing caps with the hope that they will capture what little bit is floating around in that one inch headspace. Are they effective? who knows. They're probably better than normal caps but probably not 100% effective either.

The point of reducing O2 exposure is to REDUCE it as much as our individual equipment, process, and patience can, because ELIMINATING O2 is impossible. I've never experienced notable oxidation in my beer so I feel my process is good enough to reduce it below a perceptible level, making other more labor and equipment intensive processes (like LoDO) unnecessary and needlessly wasteful of resources for my home brewery (YMMV).

So as I pointed out before, I think this is more of a precipitate issue than an oxidation issue (though I actually suspect there may be both factors at work to varying degrees) because of my observed difference between the carefully poured top half of the bottle vs. a full bottle pour.
I suggest anybody else with this issue try the same thing: carefully pour only the top half of a well-settled bottle and compare it to the color of a normal bottle pour.
I suspect you will see a stark difference, as I did.
If the issue were entirely oxidation, that wouldn't be the case.
How breweries like treehouse do it I have no idea - I am only hypothesizing based on my own observations.

 

[schematix]

While that's true, that the one inch or so of headspace you suck back into the bottle is air, that is a whole lot less exposure and a tiny amount of oxygen compared to filling a bottle full of plain air (what would happen without the initial CO2 purge). PLus, I always cap with O2 absorbing caps with the hope that they will capture what little bit is floating around in that one inch headspace. Are they effective? who knows. They're probably better than normal caps but probably not 100% effective either.

Air is about 20% oxygen. That is A LOT.

Pre-purging the bottle helps reduce the introduction of oxygen during the fill process, but it does nothing for you once you pull the fill wand out because you suck 100% air back into the head space.

One "trick" employed on bottling lines is to make the beer foam up at the end of the fill. By agitating the CO2 in the beer, it comes out of solution, effectively purge the bottle from the inside out. It is key that the cap is placed directly onto actively foaming beer.

On the rare occasion i bottle i pull the wand about 90% out, then bump the CO2 purge again, and throw a cap on. right away. I would *highly* recommend doing this in a sink or bucket, and with a partner because it can get quite messy.

This will work unless you have a beer that has sat so long in primary or secondary that it has fully degassed.

The point of reducing O2 exposure is to REDUCE it as much as our individual equipment, process, and patience can

You may only be able to reduce it as much as those variables allow, but that doesn't mean it's been reduced below the thresholds where oxidation occurs (you can't wish the problem away - but you be happy to live with it). Even oxygen levels significantly below 1ppm are enough to be problematic.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Air is about 20% oxygen. That is A LOT.
Even oxygen levels significantly below 1ppm are enough to be problematic.

Exactly.
And I would challenge you to show me anyone's setup or process that eliminates potential O2 exposure below 1 ppm.
Not saying it can't be done, but VERY few can do that or even want to given the additional resources (time and treasure) required for that.
And I would posit that even if you could reach 1ppm, you are well beyond the point of diminishing returns for home brewing scale.

But to each his own. If someone wants to obsessively try to block every single oxygen molecule that comes into contact with their beer, more power to them.
Me? I prefer to Relax, to not worry, and to enjoy my (slightly but imperceptibly) oxygen-exposed homebrew. It's a relaxing hobby, not an obsession for me.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Wondering if it is light and protein issue. Kegs and cans have zero light transmission. Most other beers except this style you want all the proteins to drop out. Just my thinkings.

 

[schematix]

Exactly.
And I would challenge you to show me anyone's setup or process that eliminates potential O2 exposure below 1 ppm.
Not saying it can't be done, but VERY few can do that or even want to given the additional resources (time and treasure) required for that.
And I would posit that even if you could reach 1ppm, you are well beyond the point of diminishing returns for home brewing scale.

Some of the more technical among us have shown that racking to the serving keg at the tail end of active fermentation (4-6 points to go), results in effectively 0 dissolved oxygen.

Bottling on the other hand has not shown that level of success yet.

But to each his own. If someone wants to obsessively try to block every single oxygen molecule that comes into contact with their beer, more power to them.
Me? I prefer to Relax, to not worry, and to enjoy my (slightly but imperceptibly) oxygen-exposed homebrew. It's a relaxing hobby, not an obsession for me.

Yep that's the great thing about this hobby. You can make it whatever you like.

To me the process part of brewing is more interesting and I have more fun building things than say making a test batch experimenting with a new hop variety or new malt. I do that stuff, but after i've bought more stainless parts.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Some of the more technical among us have shown that racking to the serving keg at the tail end of active fermentation (4-6 points to go), results in effectively 0 dissolved oxygen.

Bottling on the other hand has not shown that level of success yet.

Yeah, I've considered doing the closed racking process, and I have most of the necessary equipment, but I've not bothered yet, as I've not seen any reason to (for my needs and goals).

If you don't mind my asking, when you do this process,

a: Don't you find a fair amount of sediment in at least the first few pulls? (my assumption being that if you are still relying on the yeast to finish attenuating, you have not cold crashed to force precipitation of yeast and other particulates)

b: How do you measure residual oxygen to know you are "near zero"?
I'm not sharp-shooting your process, I'm genuinely curious because we all "know" (through wisdom handed down from our brewing forefathers) that a small amount of active yeast will "clean up" residual oxygen.
I say "know" because it is conventional wisdom, but experimenters like the folks at Brulosophy and others have been repeatedly demonstrating that a lot of long-held beliefs and "wisdom" passed down through the ages is either not correct, not reliably observable, or not applicable on the homebrewing scale.

To that end, I wonder just how much oxygen will those last few surviving yeast clean up, and are they as good at it as we've been led to believe?
Maybe they are - maybe they are super-efficient. Or maybe those last few survivors have adapted to a relatively anaerobic environment and, no longer needing the oxygen, don't effectively clean much of it up. Or maybe they would, but in order for them to consume it, they have to come into contact with it, and I question if those microscopic yeast actually come into contact with those oxygen atoms (small bullet, big sky theory).

Again, I am not criticizing, I'm just skeptical of conventional wisdom without data to back it up, such as the ability to actually measure oxygen in ppm going into your serving keg, and then measure it again after that last bit of fermentation is supposed to have cleaned it up.
Does such data exist? Maybe someone has already done that.
I'd be interested in the results.

Bottling on the other hand has not shown that level of success yet.

Yeah, I don't actually bottle much - mostly just my ciders. Beer usually stays in the keg.

Yep that's the great thing about this hobby. You can make it whatever you like.

To me the process part of brewing is more interesting and I have more fun building things than say making a test batch experimenting with a new hop variety or new malt. I do that stuff, but after i've bought more stainless parts.

Indeed.
For me, the joy is in creating a beverage that I like better that 95% of what I can buy at my local beer store, because I can brew exactly to my tastes (and while I love that craft beer is booming, I feel like 80% of what I can buy is not as good as what I can make at home, but part of that again, is brewing to my own palate).

Brew on, brother!

 

[schematix]

a: Don't you find a fair amount of sediment in at least the first few pulls? (my assumption being that if you are still relying on the yeast to finish attenuating, you have not cold crashed to force precipitation of yeast and other particulates)

Key process step here. I let my kettle settle for about half an hour after its chilled the whirlpool is stopped. This does a remarkable job at reducing the about of hop and trub debris that end up in the fermenter. I also slightly bent the liquid dip tube in my primary kegs so they don't pick the yeast up. The first pint from the serving keg is slightly hazy, but its never sludge and its always crystal after that.

b: How do you measure residual oxygen to know you are "near zero"?

There's an instrument. It's not super cheap but within reach for those that would have the means to do the process otherwise. Google Extech DO600. The LoDO guys did hundreds of batches using it on the hot and cold sides.

In my view the Brulosopher experiments only suggest that most people don't have a palette trained for beer tasting. I think they are a well intentioned group, but in the end it's mostly for entertainment value. Kind of like mythbusters, just for beer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Key process step here. I let my kettle settle for about half an hour after its chilled the whirlpool is stopped. This does a remarkable job at reducing the about of hop and trub debris that end up in the fermenter. I also slightly bent the liquid dip tube in my primary kegs so they don't pick the yeast up. The first pint from the serving keg is slightly hazy, but its never sludge and its always crystal after that.

There's an instrument. It's not super cheap but within reach for those that would have the means to do the process otherwise. Google Extech DO600. The LoDO guys did hundreds of batches using it on the hot and cold sides.

Thanks for the info.

 

[AOD]

I'll just mention it again, hops are the first thing to oxidize in beer, a beer with a lot of hops and *any* oxygen is going to show more oxidation. (color darkening, stale or dried tea flavors mentioned above)

This is why new/amateur homebrewer's first IPA's bottle-conditioned are usually pretty rough around the edges.

 

[derekcw83]

I'll just mention it again, hops are the first thing to oxidize in beer, a beer with a lot of hops and *any* oxygen is going to show more oxidation. (color darkening, stale or dried tea flavors mentioned above)

This is why new/amateur homebrewer's first IPA's bottle-conditioned are usually pretty rough around the edges.

And even worse if those hops aren't fresh or are improperly stored.

 

[JJ900]

I'll just mention it again, hops are the first thing to oxidize in beer, a beer with a lot of hops and *any* oxygen is going to show more oxidation. (color darkening, stale or dried tea flavors mentioned above)

This is why new/amateur homebrewer's first IPA's bottle-conditioned are usually pretty rough around the edges.

Well, consider these small hopping rate differences:
NB Pliny Clone:
.25 oz FWH
50IBU Hopshot
2oz in boil
4oz hopstand
5oz across two dryhops

Congress St IPA Clone (NEIPA)
2oz in boil
2.5oz hopstand
6.5oz in one dry hop

The NEIPA dry hop is larger but not by much. The Pliny Clone is not susceptible to any of the off flavors being discussed. Although its higher ABV...could that have some protective factor? And, the Pliny dry hops occur later in fermentation, so more alcohol present when hops are put in...could that prevent oxidation?

 

[schematix]

Saw this in the LoDO thread and thought it was a good cross-quote.....

I think that the unique hop character of NEIPA is entirely due to low-oxygen hopping techniques (hop stand post boil, dry hopping during active fermentation) and minimizing O2 pickup post-fermentation to a much more obsessive degree than most.

 

[AOD]

Well, consider these small hopping rate differences:
NB Pliny Clone:
.25 oz FWH
50IBU Hopshot
2oz in boil
4oz hopstand
5oz across two dryhops

Congress St IPA Clone (NEIPA)
2oz in boil
2.5oz hopstand
6.5oz in one dry hop

The NEIPA dry hop is larger but not by much. The Pliny Clone is not susceptible to any of the off flavors being discussed. Although its higher ABV...could that have some protective factor? And, the Pliny dry hops occur later in fermentation, so more alcohol present when hops are put in...could that prevent oxidation?

Crystal malts also oxidize quickly, but I'm curious if oats are even faster since they aren't a barley? I need to dig into the science on that one.

I think the shear amount of hop matter in the NE IPA is what is oxidizing so quick. That Congress ST. IPA recipe is pretty docile in terms of hoping schedule. 1-2 done. It works, but not as good as the 2-3 DH additions.

(Yes I'm sipping my single DH NEIPA just after drinking my 3 DH NEIPA beer. #Science)

 

[schematix]

I'm sipping on my 4+ month old LoDO IPA right now (1lb citra + 1lb simcoe for 10G). I'm still floored that its 95% what it was at 4 weeks.

Never had an IPA before this last 4 weeks, let alone 4 months.

 

[ultravista]

Perhaps someone can contact JC Tetreault (@trilliumbrewing). JC is the NEIPA expert.

 

[JJ900]

That Congress ST. IPA recipe is pretty docile in terms of hoping schedule. 1-2 done. It works, but not as good as the 2-3 DH additions.

I agree although its similar to Braufessor's NEIPA dry hop rate totalling 6oz. And I know some of you go huge on the DH additions. I should have said in my original post that the Congress St Clone Dry Hop rate above was enough to give me an off flavor of tea leaves (assuming its dry hop related).

 

[Nomofett]

So, I don't think I saw it earlier, but I cannot keg, is there any tips on how to bottle for people like me? Anyone have a halfway successful batch that they can offer up what they did? I'd like to brew a NEIPA next week but this thread is scaring me away from it.

 

[olotti]

So, I don't think I saw it earlier, but I cannot keg, is there any tips on how to bottle for people like me? Anyone have a halfway successful batch that they can offer up what they did? I'd like to brew a NEIPA next week but this thread is scaring me away from it.

Don't be. I still bottle and brew these all the time however they have a shelf lif of in my experience about a month before I can detect a change and it may not be color but the hops def start to fade. I changed my bottling and dry hopping technique a few batches back since I was getting sever oxidation after only like 3 weeks now I'm sipping on a 3 week dipa and it's just getting better. Here's what I did. First instead of a double dry hop I'd do a giant single dry hop on day 5-7, now I've done this enough to know that I pitch enough yeast from a starter and use pure o2 and have careful fermentation temps that I know by now on day 10-12 this beer is done and the yeast have cleaned up enough byproducts as to get rid of any aceteldahyde. Second I stopped cold crashing for long periods like 24-36 hrs, now I'll cold crash for 12 hrs the night before and that's it. When bottling and I think this has helped when filling 12 oz bottles I'll fill one and put a cap on it and do six like this then crimp the caps. When I bottle 22oz ill do three in the same way then crimp. I bottle condition for about one week in my closet and then into the fridge they all go. These changes have helped a lot. Now this dipa I'm sipping I did do an active ferm dry hop on day four and another on day 8 so maybe if the beer is still hangin on in another week which would be 1 month old I'll change to this dry hop technique in all my IPAs. Anyway Hope this helps a little.

 

[tgmartin000]

Are you checking mash pH? I found this, regarding a mash pH of 5.2, on the lower side:

"The redox potential is improved which results in a lower susceptibility to oxygen."

From:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing

I'm not sure if people mentioned darkening of their beers also, but high mash pH will also contribute to that as well.

 

[Nomofett]

Thanks plotting, so with the way you do it now you don't dry hop during fermentation?

 

[olotti]

Thanks plotting, so with the way you do it now you don't dry hop during fermentation?

Not normally usually just at the tail end so as I saw the krausen dropping I would add the dry hop and the dry hop charge for me on a normal 6-7% IPA is about 4-5oz for a 5 gal batch.

 

[tempestam83]

I think I found a practical solution to this. Most of my batches get oxidized and really darken and taste funky after about two week. Need to just drink them all before that. I bottled a batch about 10 days ago and they taste/look great right now. We'll see what happens in a few days.

 

[billl]

Just another data point from an accidental "experiment".

I brewed an IPA with 30 minute whirlpool. I dry hopped by opening the container and adding a paint strainer bag of 4oz whole hops at day 10. The fermenter was one of those bigmouth bubblers that don't seal well. I didn't have a spare keg, so I just dropped the temp to 35 after about a week of dry hopping and let it sit. It sat there for 3 weeks after those obvious o2 exposure points. No CO2 purging. No closed transfers. Not even a fermenter that actually holds a seal.

Results - a perfectly clear IPA with no hints of darkening and no stale taste. It's still smells great and is very hop forward. Probably not as fresh as it was 3 weeks ago, but on par with commercial versions at a bar. I was expecting some obvious signs of oxidation after 4 weeks of exposure.

So, I basically did everything "wrong" in terms of potential O2 exposure and it turned out fine. The only thing I did right was to water chemistry to make sure PH was down to 5.2 and mineral levels matched a pale ale profile on the spreadsheet.

 

[JJ900]

Just another data point from an accidental "experiment".

But those of us who have had the problems discussed on this thread are talking about hazy or NE style IPAs. We've all bottled regular ol' IPAs without issue and are trying to figure out what the difference is when you use the hazy IPA brewing and fermenting techniques.

In my case, I can't promise its oxidation versus just some other off flavor but it definitely only happens when I attempt to bottle the hazy style IPA.

 

[olotti]

Just an update for me so I bottled a dipa 4 weeks ago and down to my last 2 bottles, had one yesterday and it's still aromatic, no color change and looks to be good. What did I do different. I bottled most in 22oz bombers as I've noticed they've held on longer than 12 oz bottles but I've had bombers turn just as fast as 12oz bottles before I changed two things. I only cold crash for 12 hrs max for this style and when I bottle when doing 12oz I'll fill and cap 6 them crimo and when doing 22oz il fill and cap 3 at a time then crimp and this has seemed to really help a lot. Before I'd fill 12 12oz bottles then crimp so idk if the time they say let more o2 in before I crimped but this is just what I've found that has helped me but I think it's more towards not cold crashing as long that's the big reason for the oxidation not hitting my neipas so fast as I really feel there's a combination of having massive amounts of hop oil in suspension and how they accept o2 binding, no science or data but it's just what I've experienced.

 

[billl]

But those of us who have had the problems discussed on this thread are talking about hazy or NE style IPAs. We've all bottled regular ol' IPAs without issue and are trying to figure out what the difference is when you use the hazy IPA brewing and fermenting techniques.

In my case, I can't promise its oxidation versus just some other off flavor but it definitely only happens when I attempt to bottle the hazy style IPA.

Well, lots of the posts in this thread claimed xyz technique caused the problem. This beer used many of those techniques and didn't have any o2 issues. Wheat? Big late hop addition? Extended whirlpool? Big dry hop? Leaving the hops at keg temps? London yeast? Nope. No O2 issues with a pale ale water profile. I think the lasting haze and potential for O2 issues have a lot more to do with water chemistry than the brewing techniques. Before I started monitoring PH and messing with salt additions, I had O2 issues with these big/late addition beers. Since? Not so much. Obviously, the big brewers of this style aren't producing oxidized beers, so it's not something inherent to the style.

 

[JJ900]

OK good points, I just saw you say your result was a "perfectly clear IPA" so figured you weren't trying to make a NEIPA. The big brewers are kegging and probably? force carbing so they sidestep the problem.

Even though everyone says that dry hopping during ferment reduces O2 exposure, I do wonder about that aspect of the NEIPA technique at least as far as impact on people who bottle. Again, my issue could just be the "vegetal" problem not oxidation, but that is still weird when you see people dry hop crazy amounts of hops without issue.

 

[FruityHops]

Well, lots of the posts in this thread claimed xyz technique caused the problem. This beer used many of those techniques and didn't have any o2 issues. Wheat? Big late hop addition? Extended whirlpool? Big dry hop? Leaving the hops at keg temps? London yeast? Nope. No O2 issues with a pale ale water profile. I think the lasting haze and potential for O2 issues have a lot more to do with water chemistry than the brewing techniques. Before I started monitoring PH and messing with salt additions, I had O2 issues with these big/late addition beers. Since? Not so much. Obviously, the big brewers of this style aren't producing oxidized beers, so it's not something inherent to the style.

Did you bottle condition this beer? Yes, there are obviously breweries making this style and getting it to last more then two weeks, but even they don't have nearly the shelf life of a more traditional IPA. The canned NEIPAs usually start to "fall off" around the three week mark (from canning date) in my opinion.

The problem as I see it is the process of bottling and/or bottle conditioning this style of beer in the manner we home brewers usually do. I've made beers of this style where I started with distilled water, added CaCl and gypsum to get to about 140 ppm each of Cl and SO4, used phosphoric acid to get the mash in the 5.3 to 5.4 range and brewed a wonderful beer, only to have that beer turn brown and relatively flavorless after two weeks of bottle conditioning. I have brewed the same beer in the same manner and kegged it instead, and it stays wonderful for a couple months.

It is quite clear to me that O2 exposure is the problem here, and this style is more susceptible than others. Anyone denying that or looking for another explanation is barking up the wrong tree.