Can yeast nutrient make up for low cell count?

[Ragman]

Making a 4.5gal batch of 7% IPA. (1.072OG) Using yeast calculator it says I need somewhere near 224 Billion cells.

I would rather not make a starter and would like to try Omega's Tropica IPA liquid yeast which boasts a cell count of 200 billion.

Will yeast nutrient help make up the difference or will it just stress the yeast?

 

[Miraculix]

No, buy two packs or make a starter.

 

[DBhomebrew]

A very fresh package? I wouldn't sweat it. Or, a great time to try a quick Shaken Not Stirred starter.

 

[Ragman]

Wouldnt using two packs be considered "over-pitching"?

 

[DBhomebrew]

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/yeast-cultures-are-nuclear-weapons

 

[MHBT]

Definitely not, under pitching plus nutrients still equals underpitching

 

[Ragman]

Thanks everyone. Still learning.

 

[MHBT]

Thanks everyone. Still learning.

We all are

 

[Miraculix]

Wouldnt using two packs be considered "over-pitching"?

There is no real over pitching.

 

[MHBT]

There is no real over pitching.

I agree, i intentionally pitched more then triple the recommended amount of yeasy before and caused no harm what so ever, under pitching on the other hand

 

[Miraculix]

I agree, i intentionally pitched more then triple the recommended amount of yeasy before and caused no harm what so ever, under pitching on the other hand

Exactly. I did the same many times. Rule of thumb is pitch plenty of healthy yeast and you're good.

 

[MHBT]

Exactly. I did the same many times. Rule of thumb is pitch plenty of healthy yeast and you're good.

Yup, yeast health is paramount, i could be wrong but i truly believe yeast health is a little more important then cell count but why not have both, like you said “ plenty of healthy yeast”

 

[DBhomebrew]

Exactly. I did the same many times. Rule of thumb is pitch plenty of healthy yeast and you're good.

Excellent maxim. Vague enough to allow for wide interpretation.

Agreed with a good enough amount of healthy, vigorous yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Excellent maxim. Vague enough to allow for wide interpretation.

Agreed with a good enough amount of healthy, vigorous yeast.

The minimum is what those calculators spit out. Or dry yeast manufacturer recommendations, but doesn't hurt to be on the safe side and pitch more. It is actually beneficial in most cases. I definitely do not trust liquid yeast manufacturer recommendations. Learned that the hard way. Even Imperial yeast is not direct pitch once the pack is a few months old.

 

[Toxxyc]

Yeast cell count is upped by the yeast's aerobic phase, in other words, the time it spends in the wort while it has oxygen available. During the aerobic phase the yeast cells will consume the oxygen and multiply, which is why a starter is constantly stirred to get oxygen into the mix, which boosts the cell count drastically.

If you want to pitch yeast and you don't have enough, you can limit the damage done from a low pitch rate by oxygenating the wort prior to pitch, or during the first few hours of pitching. I've fermented a few successful lagers by pitching one pack instead of two, just by really shaking up the cold wort prior to pitch. The colder the wort, the better it'll absorb O2 from the atmosphere.

But yeah, it's easier and safer to just buy another pack of yeast and pitch it.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Even Imperial yeast is not direct pitch once the pack is a few months old.

Hence...

A very fresh package? I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[Miraculix]

Hence...

I know, but who knows how that pack was treated.... I go the safe route from now, too many dumpers because of ****** liquid yeast. A starter would have been an easy fix.

 

[Toxxyc]

I, personally, despise liquid yeast. I've used it a few times and never had a great result. I think it's purely because storage for it is sensitive and it's not always possible to keep it perfectly over here, so I don't like it. Dry yeasts for me, is king, specially with modern recommendations that aeration and rehydrating is no longer really needed. Just pitch it.

 

[Miraculix]

I, personally, despise liquid yeast. I've used it a few times and never had a great result. I think it's purely because storage for it is sensitive and it's not always possible to keep it perfectly over here, so I don't like it. Dry yeasts for me, is king, specially with modern recommendations that aeration and rehydrating is no longer really needed. Just pitch it.

Unfortunately, my best beer so far was fermented with a liquid strain and there is no comparable dry strain available........ Otherwise I agree 100%.

 

[Toxxyc]

I also have to add we don't have the convenient smack packs here like other places in the world. We have limited liquid yeasts available, and WAY more dry yeasts, of which I've tried a lot. Liquid is also quite a bit more expensive here, so perhaps that's why we have a love for dry...

 

[Ragman]

so this leads me to another question. How do you measure yeast cells from re harvested yeast?

 

[DBhomebrew]

It's all about the resources available to each individual brewer. Me? I put an Omega order in at my LHBS on Wednesday at noon, pick up no later then 5p Friday. I've never received a package more than 2wks old.

so this leads me to another question. How do you measure yeast cells from re harvested yeast?

Typically, by volume of slurry with an estimate of how clean it is. I believe Palmer includes this info in How to Brew.

 

[Miraculix]

so this leads me to another question. How do you measure yeast cells from re harvested yeast?

I personally just dump the wort on the yeastcake from the previous batch and call it a day!

 

[Dland]

I guess you could buy a microscope and learn how they do it in yeast labs. But I've found that a quart of fresh yeasty beer from bottom of fermentor for 10 gallons wort gets going fast & healthy. Ideally you want yeasty beer or slurry, not trub solids.

so this leads me to another question. How do you measure yeast cells from re harvested yeast?

 

[Toxxyc]

I personally just dump the wort on the yeastcake from the previous batch and call it a day!

This. But if I can't, I typically swirl up the slurry to get as much of it as I can and fill a 750ml glass jar, seal it and stick it in the fridge. I pitch the whole shebang next time.

 

[McMullan]

Will yeast nutrient help make up the difference or will it just stress the yeast?

Unfortunately, yeast nutrients don't ferment wort. At best, if added, they reduce the chances of nutrient deficiency developing in the viable yeast pitched and their daughter cells. It's always better to make a starter. The problem with bigger packs of wet yeast is they have a death rate comparable to smaller packs stored under the same conditions. Just means more cells are dying in the bigger packs. You don't have to make a starter, but, after spending a day or so brewing some nice wort, why take a punt on the yeast? Ignore online calculators that are claimed to be able to predict the length of a piece of string by guessing what the two ends look like. The only thing that confirms these calculators work is superstition. Pitch as much yeast as you can lay your hands on. Harvesting healthy yeast at the end of a fermentation and repitching fresh results in the 'gold standard' for what a good fermentation looks like. Compare it with what you're doing now then make up your own mind what works best for you.

 

[balrog]

I rather like liquid yeast, but I make starters, with very few exceptions.

 

[Ragman]

Thank you all for your input. I have been re-harvesting yeast but always afraid Im not getting enough out of it. Ive collected both after primary and after the keg is kicked. I have them labeled as such. Im pretty sure I will get more healthy cells from the primary but Ive heard you caneven pull yeast from the trub thats left in the bottom of the can or bottle from certain types of craft beers.

WHen I harvest, I will dump the remains of the primary after transfering to secondary, into a mason jar. I then put in fridge. WHen it comes time to pitch I dump out most of the clear liquid on top and pitch the rest. I get nervous because I dont ever seem to get as much fermenation activity in my starter as I seem to with fresh (packaged) yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you all for your input. I have been re-harvesting yeast but always afraid Im not getting enough out of it. Ive collected both after primary and after the keg is kicked. I have them labeled as such. Im pretty sure I will get more healthy cells from the primary but Ive heard you caneven pull yeast from the trub thats left in certain types of craft beers.

WHen I harvest, I will dump the remains of the primary after transfering to secondary, into a mason jar. I then put in fridge. WHen it comes time to pitch I dump out most of the clear liquid on top and pitch the rest. I get nervous because I dont ever seem to get as much fermenation activity in my starter as I seem to with fresh (packaged) yeast.

I did this very often myself and always had mixed results. Imo, this is not a good way. What happens is that you carryover a lot of dead yeast, trub etc. that you actually do not want in your new beer. Also, the number of yeast cells in the slurry can be surprisingly low even after just a few weeks.

What is actually better, is making a stepped up starter out of a small amount of that slurry. That way, most of the yeast cell in the final pitchable amount is alive and very healthy and ther's also not much trub that you carry over. Plus you can make sure that most of the slurry is actually living yeast and not dead material.

I lost some beers to slurry not being as alive as I thought it would be and many more were on the edge of being a dumper due to underpitching.

So only two ways for me, either bottling and directly dumping the new beer into the just emptied fermenter with the remaining yeastcake inside (no cleaning necessary, yay!), or a starter from slurry/bought yeast pack.

 

[Ragman]

"What is actually better, is making a stepped up starter out of a small amount of that slurry"

How do I make a stepped up starter? Sorry just dont understand the lingo.

Also on that second part, say I dont plan to brew again for a month, how would I keep that keg with the yeastcake fresh? I mean, I usually clean out and sanitize my kegs after every batch. So in typing this out Im assuming this would only work if you plan to make another batch immediately after youve transfered off the primary?