Can u make cider on top of the trub from beer primary?

[GeneDaniels1963]

Do wee really have to let this stuff age for a few months?

Drink some now, it will be pretty good. But make sure you set some back for 2-4 months. Then it will be outstanding.

 

[devilssoninlaw]

I just racked my Brown Ale into the secondary this morning, scooped out most of the yeast cake and put it into a jar while cleaning out my primary.
I added 5 gallons of apple juice and a pound of sugar to boost the abv a bit and then dumped in the jar of yeast.
I noticed a very good fermentation within an hour. I likes dat!!!

 

[Nubiwan]

Bit of an update here. My pale is sitting in my basement porch doing a little cold crash. The yellow haze is slowly dropping into an Apple juice coloured golden brown. Hoping to clear it out as much as possible.

The Gravity bottomed out to zero around 5 days. It's very dry to taste. Confess, I liked it more along the way, a little sweet tarter than dry, but I guess you can't go back. Since I plan to bottle, I might take up on a suggestion to prime half the volume and then rack the remainder "still" if that is the correct term. Not primed. Just to see how different that tastes.

Just wondering it there is anything I could have done(still do) to preserve a slight sweetness in my final serving. Read using metas and/or sorbates will allow me to sweeten, but I am guessing I cannot bottle carb in that case. If I had stopped fermenting at say 1.005-1.009 type thing, and bottled, does that sweeten it? Surely it would still ferment in bottles, and then be cloudy, and unfinished.

Finally, I am no cider expert (clearly). Had a strongbow, and a few snake bites in my day. Is the generally accepted norm to serve it dry/carbonated? Or still? Does cider get servedhigh carbed, from bottle, with a head? Or just a bubbly flat looking drink? My experience has been the latter. Honestly dunno!

Ultra finally, any point in dry hopping a cider, with say a centennial to get those citrusy flavours into the mix. Found centennial nicely finished off a recent IPA I did.

 

[Darthbrewder]

Check this out. I haven’t tried this but I’ve been meaning to. I can’t stand the way artificial sweeteners taste and this is the only method I know of to make a sweet cider that is carbonated without sorbate, backsweetning and force carbonating in a keg. Or without adding something like Splenda to sweeten.

I have however dry hopped a cider before. I don’t remember the amount of hops I used. I do remember it was a gallon of cider. I used mosaic hops for the dry hop. I loved it. Definitely try it.

Unless you make a 50/50 beer/cider or Brandon O’s Graff then you shouldn’t see any type of head formation on your cider. I personally like to carbonate all my ciders. So when I carbonate, I usually go for about 2.5 volumes max.

 

[papz]

I don't get why cider users aren't commonly using lactose (found in milk stouts & unfermentable) to sweeten when they go to full dry. IDK how it tastes in a cider but if it works for the beer people it can work for a cider as well.

 

[Nubiwan]

Check this out. I haven’t tried this but I’ve been meaning to. I can’t stand the way artificial sweeteners taste and this is the only method I know of to make a sweet cider that is carbonated without sorbate, backsweetning and force carbonating in a keg. Or without adding something like Splenda to sweeten.

I have however dry hopped a cider before. I don’t remember the amount of hops I used. I do remember it was a gallon of cider. I used mosaic hops for the dry hop. I loved it. Definitely try it.

Unless you make a 50/50 beer/cider or Brandon O’s Graff then you shouldn’t see any type of head formation on your cider. I personally like to carbonate all my ciders. So when I carbonate, I usually go for about 2.5 volumes max.

Great video thanks. Could he not have accomplished the same by parking the bottles in the fridge after a few days. That is, stopping fermentation with cold temperature, if not pasteurizing. Does very cold temp stop yeast fermenting? Maybe not.

I am guessing I could pasteurize half my bottles in this manner (182 degree water), and then let some just fully carbonate. See which is better.

How many of those concetrates apple cans per gallon? He used an entire can for what looked like a gallon. Maybe even less.

 

[Darthbrewder]

I think he said a whole can was way too much. I believe it was in the comments section. He may have even stated it in the video. I really don’t remember. I’ve shared that video more times than I have watched it lol. I’m sure it might take a little trial and error to figure the right amount for you personally. Maybe even save back a gallon in your bottling bucket and add sugar or concentrate till you like the sweetness, then bottle and follow his instructions.

You could put the bottles in the fridge to slow the fermentation but it’s no guarantee that it will stop completely. I certainly wouldn’t depend on that as it might lead to bottle bombs.

 

[Nubiwan]

Only concern I have now is attemtping to clear my cider as it is still very cloudy. I had it around 40-50 degrees, but thinking on moving it to the garage (approaching zero for the next 3-4 days) and make it behave.

Up in the air about what to do about carbonation. If I follow the beer carbing/priming chart, and then pasteurize some bottles within say 3-5 days of bottling, maybe a few more at 6-7 days, let the rest carb fully, then surely its a similar outcome. I'll have some sweet cider, semi sweet, some dry. Also should avoid bottle bombs too if I follow the priming chart for beer. Yes?

Think I read I could get the sugar quantity in grams from the side of the concentrate cans and just add them up for my prime. So if my priming calculator indicates I need 162 grams of sugar for 20 liters, then 2 cans of the following concentrate should do it. Again, that is a question.....

https://skipthepie.org/fruits-and-f...etened-undiluted-without-added-ascorbic-acid/

Does this all sound like a plan?

Last question.... what temp to use for my priming calculation? Fermentation temp, or cold crash aging temps? My guess is it might be holding some extra CO2 when I bottle frp, the crash temp.

 

[Darthbrewder]

Always use fermentation temp for priming calculators.

Sounds to me like you are on the right track.

Keep us updated.

 

[Nubiwan]

OK - so thinking on pasteurizing to perhaps get some sweet tart taste on my cider. Will I get any residual sweetness from full Carbonation? I suspect not as all sugars will be eaten up to CO2, lest I pasteurize.

I am only at 2 weeks in the primary, and its clearing out nicely in the garage at close to freezing temps, here in far Eastern Canada. Can now see daylight of the window through it. I do have it covered otherwise.

How long should I wait while it crashes? Can I bring back into the room, and bottle later? Let it age?

I suspect if I bottle and not carbonate, then it will just age in the bottles more. Seems logical. Perhaps same if I carbonate / pasteurize. Yes/No?

Looking for some advice I guess.

 

[Darthbrewder]

Let it age in the cold. It will help clear the cider. Once it’s clear and stable, I would say it is safe to bottle. I don’t see why aging it in bottles would be much different than in bulk. It certainly won’t hurt to leave it in primary for longer, provided you have minimal headspace. Aging in bottles I think will work fine. Give it a typical beer bottle priming timeline, 3 weeks at minimum. If you can leave it alone then try conditioning in the bottle for 6-8 weeks before you try one.

If you just put enough sugar in to prime for say 2.5 volumes of co2, I doubt you will taste much sweetness. But yes if you let it carb fully then there won’t be any sugar left. If you want it sweetened then after you add to your bottling bucket add a small amount of sugar and taste, if it isn’t quite sweet enough, add a little more, until it is to your liking. Likely it will taste just as sweet after it is carbonated because it doesn’t take much sugar to carb. Just don’t forget about it and let it go for too long before you pasteurize.

 

[Nubiwan]

Just checked it in the garage and its a fabulous looking golden brown. Almost clear but still a bit mirky. Temps are around 34-36 in my garage. Betting they drop close to freezing overnight.

My brother in law had a MadJack Apple Lager yesterday. Pure coincidence. I never drink cider, let alone come across it. It's like a sweet, tarty apply lager. Cider taste really.

I wonder how they concoct that. Suppose you can just add apple juice to a beer fermentation, or prior to bottling, and pasteurize to retain sweetness, plus get them apple flavours.

Should I be concerned about head space in my primary?

 

[papz]

Should I be concerned about head space in my primary?

No.
Not for primary.
It should be blanketed by CO2 as long as you don't pop open the lid after high krousen.

 

[Zambezi Special]

I just tasted my first bottle of cider on beer primary trub.
I do not recognise any beer flavour or hoppiness in it.
Mind you, I do have a bit of a cold, but still...
There is a slight sourness, that I also detected in my beer and other cider batches (with bread yeast).
It disappears after a while.

The foam is plenty and nice and white.

I am going to leave the bottles for another week at around 21 oC and then they will go to the fridge

 

[Nubiwan]

Below is my hard cider bottled Monday. Assuming hard means - no carbonation - correct? Thinking to myself, perhaps I should have left more un carbed, as it already looks nice with a couple days of clearing. Anyway, I didn't.

I carbed the rest. Had to use dextrose to carb it up. I have no access to frozen concentrate in any of the local supermarkets. What other options did I have - for future reference?

I now plan to pasteurize half my batch, so that I can have some semi sweet - some dry. Any rule of thumb as to when I should pasteurize. I do have some 1L pet bottles and they already seem pretty firm, but not sure how carbed they might be. The ones I will pasteurize are in 750 Ml / 26 oz glass beer bottles.

How long should I wait to Pasteurize?

Can I just lump a bunch in the fridge to slow down the fermenation? That going to work?

Will it age the same in Fridge as it would if I pasteurize?

Eye ya eye! So many questions - so little beer.


upload pic

 

[Maylar]

"Hard" means alcoholic, uncarbed is "still". You can make your own concentrate by freeze/thaw of apple juice if you want. How long to pasteurize depends on how long it takes to carbonate. See the sticky here on that subject.

I have tossed bottle conditioned ciders in the fridge for up to a month and had them not over carbonate, but that totally depends on the yeast and temperature. Some yeasts will continue to ferment even cold.

 

[z-bob]

I use plain ol' table sugar to carbonate mine. I don't remember for sure how much for a 750 ml bottle, but I think it's about 5.5 grams.

I don't like 5 to 7% ABV apple cider that much if it's not carbonated. The fizz brings out the aroma, and add tartness. If you're making 13% apple wine, that might be better without the bubbles (still).

 

[Nubiwan]

"Hard" means alcoholic, uncarbed is "still". You can make your own concentrate by freeze/thaw of apple juice if you want. How long to pasteurize depends on how long it takes to carbonate. See the sticky here on that subject.

I have tossed bottle conditioned ciders in the fridge for up to a month and had them not over carbonate, but that totally depends on the yeast and temperature. Some yeasts will continue to ferment even cold.

AHH, thanks for the claification re: hard and still. Did those bottles in the fridge retain some sweetness? I assume you throw them in after a week or so, yes? will they still age, or does that shut them down where they are?

Freeze thaw? How does that work? Do I freeze apple juice, let it thaw and collect just the juice from the thaw?

That is rather my aim. Half of them to be slightly sweeter but carbbed, the rest dry.

 

[Nubiwan]

I use plain ol' table sugar to carbonate mine. I don't remember for sure how much for a 750 ml bottle, but I think it's about 5.5 grams.

I don't like 5 to 7% ABV apple cider that much if it's not carbonated. The fizz brings out the aroma, and add tartness. If you're making 13% apple wine, that might be better without the bubbles (still).

Well that is good to know. I only made 2 bottles "still", the rest I carbed. I did want to get some slightly sweetened, the rest to be dry, so wasn't sure if duimping a few in the fridge might work just as well as pasteurizing. Sure is a lot less "time invasive" to put them in the fridge.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Freeze thaw? How does that work? Do I freeze apple juice, let it thaw and collect just the juice from the thaw?.

First "proper" batch very yeasty take a look there. I have a pic of it in process. the one above the 2 bottles. Just wait till the ice is basically white and that is the water you have removed.

 

[Maylar]

AHH, thanks for the claification re: hard and still. Did those bottles in the fridge retain some sweetness? I assume you throw them in after a week or so, yes? will they still age, or does that shut them down where they are?

Freeze thaw? How does that work? Do I freeze apple juice, let it thaw and collect just the juice from the thaw?

That is rather my aim. Half of them to be slightly sweeter but carbbed, the rest dry.

Just like with pasteurizing, you need a test bottle to know when carbonation is at the right spot. Throw them in the fridge and it stops fermenting (depending on yeast) and leaves whatever sweetness is left. I've only done this with an 8-pack at a time (yield from a gallon) and for no more than a month. Long term is not recommended.

Note that this only works if you let the ferment finish completely and cleared, then back sweetened. If you try to cold stop the ferment while it's still active you'll get bottle bombs even in the fridge. There's just too much yeast in there.

Freeze/thaw yes as you said. Home made concentrate.

 

[Nubiwan]

Just like with pasteurizing, you need a test bottle to know when carbonation is at the right spot. Throw them in the fridge and it stops fermenting (depending on yeast) and leaves whatever sweetness is left. I've only done this with an 8-pack at a time (yield from a gallon) and for no more than a month. Long term is not recommended.

Note that this only works if you let the ferment finish completely and cleared, then back sweetened. If you try to cold stop the ferment while it's still active you'll get bottle bombs even in the fridge. There's just too much yeast in there.

Freeze/thaw yes as you said. Home made concentrate.

Can cider ferment beyond 1.000? I think I may have read .995 somewhere. Is this possible? Surely not. I just figured it was done at .000, as all sugars are munched up. So I started crashing. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Yes. I have seen many posts of .996 or so. And again depends on the hydrometer. The general rule is take a reading, wait 2-3 days, take another. If no change it's probably done.

 

[Nubiwan]

Just like with pasteurizing, you need a test bottle to know when carbonation is at the right spot. Throw them in the fridge and it stops fermenting (depending on yeast) and leaves whatever sweetness is left. I've only done this with an 8-pack at a time (yield from a gallon) and for no more than a month. Long term is not recommended.

Note that this only works if you let the ferment finish completely and cleared, then back sweetened. If you try to cold stop the ferment while it's still active you'll get bottle bombs even in the fridge. There's just too much yeast in there.

Freeze/thaw yes as you said. Home made concentrate.

Well, if I may just be exact about what I was proposing to do, I am not sure how I risk bombs. I used the Beer calculator to shoot for 2.7 co2. I have added suitably dextrose to achieve that level of carbonation. I simply plan to pasteurize some of this batch - half way through its carb process -in order to get some sweeter, slightly carbed cider. Is that how To supposed to be done? I did not over sweeten, as I want some of the batch to just carb out fully.

If I do pasteurize, using this process, will my result be bland and flat? I dunno.

Again, not sure how I'd risk bombs from this if I did let it ferment out fully, and only used adequate sugar to carb. Perhaps that was your point. Maybe I misread what you said. Similarly, if I throw a few in the fridge to slow down the carbonation, retain sweetness, I should be ok. It can only carb out to the level of my added sugar will allow.... yes?

 

[Maylar]

Well, if I may just be exact about what I was proposing to do, I am not sure how I risk bombs. I used the Beer calculator to shoot for 2.7 co2. I have added suitably dextrose to achieve that level of carbonation. I simply plan to pasteurize some of this batch - half way through its carb process -in order to get some sweeter, slightly carbed cider. Is that how To supposed to be done? I did not over sweeten, as I want some of the batch to just carb out fully.

If I do pasteurize, using this process, will my result be bland and flat? I dunno.

Again, not sure how I'd risk bombs from this if I did let it ferment out fully, and only used adequate sugar to carb. Perhaps that was your point. Maybe I misread what you said. Similarly, if I throw a few in the fridge to slow down the carbonation, retain sweetness, I should be ok. It can only carb out to the level of my added sugar will allow.... yes?

Yep, you have it right. Open a bottle in one week, then at 2, to monitor the carbonation process and decide when to either refrigerate or pasteurize. As long as it was done fermenting when you primed it you'll be safe.

As for final gravity, I've had 0.996 many times.

 

[Darthbrewder]

So how did it turn out? Do you like what you have? Did the amount of sugar you added give you enough sweetness after pasteurization? If I had to guess I would think the amount of sugar you added wasn’t enough to make the cider have some sweetness and carbonation, at least maybe not what you were expecting? The main thing, is it drinkable/shareable?

 

[LittleRiver]

I don't get why cider users aren't commonly using lactose (found in milk stouts & unfermentable) to sweeten when they go to full dry. IDK how it tastes in a cider but if it works for the beer people it can work for a cider as well.

My daughter has celiac disease, so she can't drink any of the beer I make. So I decided to make her some cider, which she said she would prefer to be on the sweet side, and carbonated. I looked at all the options, decided I didn't want to pasteurize, and rejected all the artificial sweeteners. I settled on lactose, which seemed like a great solution. She told me she is lactose intolerant.

So I made her a dry cider, nicely carbonated, and told her to sweeten it to taste at serving time with her choice of sweetener.

 

[Maylar]

My daughter has celiac disease, so she can't drink any of the beer I make. So I decided to make her some cider, which she said she would prefer to be on the sweet side, and carbonated. I looked at all the options, decided I didn't want to pasteurize, and rejected all the artificial sweeteners. I settled on lactose, which seemed like a great solution. She told me she is lactose intolerant.

So I made her a dry cider, nicely carbonated, and told her to sweeten it to taste at serving time with her choice of sweetener.

I don't like artificial sweeteners at all. Xylitol is a natural sugar alternative that is not fermentable and tastes just like sugar. I've used it very successfully in bottle conditioned ciders at about 3 TBSP per gallon for semi-sweet.

 

[LittleRiver]

I don't like artificial sweeteners at all. Xylitol is a natural sugar alternative that is not fermentable and tastes just like sugar. I've used it very successfully in bottle conditioned ciders at about 3 TBSP per gallon for semi-sweet.

Xylitol is highly toxic to dogs. My daughter wouldn't allow any of it in her house, and I don't blame her.

 

[Maylar]

Xylitol is highly toxic to dogs. My daughter wouldn't allow any of it in her house, and I don't blame her.

Roger that.

 

[z-bob]

My daughter has celiac disease, so she can't drink any of the beer I make. So I decided to make her some cider, which she said she would prefer to be on the sweet side, and carbonated. I looked at all the options, decided I didn't want to pasteurize, and rejected all the artificial sweeteners. I settled on lactose, which seemed like a great solution. She told me she is lactose intolerant.

So I made her a dry cider, nicely carbonated, and told her to sweeten it to taste at serving time with her choice of sweetener.

Tell her to use liquid sweetener (make a simple syrup), or muddle a sugar cube in the bottle of the glass with just a little of the cider before you pour the rest of the bottle. If you dump a packet of sugar in a full glass of cider, it will bubble up. It won't necessarily foam over, but you'll lose a lot of the fizz. (BTDT)

 

[LittleRiver]

Tell her to use liquid sweetener (make a simple syrup)...

That's exactly what she does.