Can chlorine produce chloramine?

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I brew AG BIAB with my tap water, which is very soft. I have a Wards analysis that confirms this.

pH 7.6
Na 17
K <1
Ca 5
Mg 1
CaCO3 17
NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
SO4-S 2
Cl 9
CO3 <1
HCO3 28
caCO3 23

My water company uses chlorine for disinfection and says they do not use chloramine. I build my water profiles with Bru'n Water.

I recently entered my first competition (an IPA) and got dinged for phenols. One judge even thought I used a Belgian yeast (it was US-05). I brought a couple of brews into my LHBS. The owner is a BJCP judge. He detected phenols, too, though not major. FWIW, I don't taste anything "off". I considered the IPA one of my best efforts. I even tried it again after I got the comp results and couldn't detect it. I don't necessarily consider my palate all that refined.

So, where is this coming from? I mash at standard water/grain ratios then do infusion mashout and then a slow "trickle" sparge thru the bag into my BK with the remainder of the water to reach full boil volume. I get 80% efficiency consistently. A few things I've already considered. My mash pH never gets over 5.5. Sparge never gets over 6.0. Pitch correct amount (confirmed with Mr. Malty). Aerate well - shake like he** for 10 min - lots of foaming. OG and FG consistently on target (+/- 2 pts). Ferment at lower third of yeast temp range.

The only thing I found that might explain this is chloramine. Am I correct that this can create phenols? As I said, my water company says they don't use this. Can chlorine produce phenols thru mashing/sparging/boiling/whatever? I'm stumped. Maybe AJ or Martin can chime in. I may just start using Campden tablets. Not sure if they have any negative side effects. Help!

 

[Yooper]

Can chlorine produce phenols thru mashing/sparging/boiling/whatever?

Yes, absolutely. You must treat for chlorine before mashing.

That is pretty easy- either let the water sit overnight to off-gas, before using or boil it briefly before using. Or, use campden.

 

[ajdelange]

We are confusing phenolics and chlorphenolics. Phenolics are naturally occuring substances found in many things in particular the husks of grains but other grain components contain them too. The reason we are so careful about chlorine and chloramine is that if grain or hop derived phenolic compounds are exposed to them the result is the nasty chlorphenolics. No, neither chlorine nor chloramine will create phenolics. But certain strains of yeast, notably Belgian strains and especially when operated at higher temperatures will bring these out. There is a well known brewery up here in Quebec that favors the Belgian styles. Every beer they brew, including their Pils, is laden with phenols. Yuck.

If you are not using Belgian strains then the usual suspects are high sparge temperature or pH and/or yeast strain and/or fermentation temperature.

 

[Yooper]

AJ is correct of course, but the judges could have been referring to chlorophenols is simply 'phenols'. I've seen that happen. If the water is not treated for or chlorine, and there is chlorine in the mashing water chlorophenols. will result. Some judges will just say phenolic instead of chlorophenolic.

 

[ajdelange]

Yooper is correct too. If there is any chlorine going into your mash tun then chlorphenols can form. This usually isn't a problem with just chlorine at the treatment plant if the water is allowed to stand over night or if it is heated before mashing but it does have the potential to be problematic. If the water smells of chlorine, don't mash with it.

Campden tablets have no appreciable effect. For 'belt and suspenders' you could use Campden tablets to treat your water. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/campden-tablets-sulfites-brewing-water-361073/

 

[Hermit]

To answer the original question. One day while driving home from Pittsburgh I happened to catch "Science Friday". The guy being interviewed said that the odor you smell at a public pool is not chlorine, but chloramine which happens when chlorine is exposed to organic material. Now put that together with the fact treatment plants add ammonia to chlorinated water to produce chloramine ..... You get the picture.

 

[ajdelange]

Chloramine is produced by exposing chlorinated water to nitrogen. At a water treatment plant the nitrogen is supplied by injecting ammonia gas. In a swimming pool the nitrogen is supplied by 'injecting' a common nitrogen containing compound: CO(NH2)2. The injecting is done by young children. Nuff said!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Thanks Yooper and AJ. You two are always helpful.

I knew I should have paid more attention in chemistry class. So what I think I'm hearing is that, bottom line, chlorine can lead to phenols and/or chlorophenols even if the water isn't treated with chloramine.

I actually do let my water sit overnight. I use a Pur filter and it takes awhile to get the 7.5 - 8 gal of water I need to brew. So I collect the filtered water the night before and add all my adjustments (gypsum, CaCl, etc) into my BK and leave it overnight. I wish I could say this was my brilliant strategy to off-gas the chlorine but it's really just so I can start mashing first thing in the morning. As a matter of fact, I usually leave the lid on so maybe the chlorine doesn't escape. Anyway, I can't smell any chlorine even straight from the tap so I never considered it a problem.

Since I know I'm not using a very phenolic yeast, my fermentation temps are under control (never over 70 unless it's deliberate) and my sparge temps are never over 170, the other variable, besides possible chlorine, is sparge pH. As I mentioned, I add my water adjustments to treat the entire volume. Then I set aside mashout and sparge water in a separate pot. I track my mash pH but I never measure the pH of the liquor beforehand. Should I? Should my sparge liquor be in a specific pH range? I have measured the second runnings pH (the sparge water as it drips through the grain bag into the BK) and that never gets over pH 6 or under SG 1.010.

As usual, the farther I get into this the less certain I become. I think I will probably start using Campden tabs but I want to be sure my process is OK, too. Thanks for bearing with me guys.

 

[ajdelange]

I knew I should have paid more attention in chemistry class. So what I think I'm hearing is that, bottom line, chlorine can lead to phenols and/or chlorophenols even if the water isn't treated with chloramine.

Chlorine can lead to chlorphenolics if phenols are present. It cannot create phenols.

I actually do let my water sit overnight. I use a Pur filter and it takes awhile to get the 7.5 - 8 gal of water I need to brew. So I collect the filtered water the night before and add all my adjustments (gypsum, CaCl, etc) into my BK and leave it overnight. I wish I could say this was my brilliant strategy to off-gas the chlorine but it's really just so I can start mashing first thing in the morning. As a matter of fact, I usually leave the lid on so maybe the chlorine doesn't escape. Anyway, I can't smell any chlorine even straight from the tap so I never considered it a problem.

If you can't smell chlorine it is unlikely that chlorine is the problem. In anycase the flavors of pheonolics and chlorphenolics are quite distinct. Chlorphenolics are usually described as tasting/smelling like bandaids or plastics. Phenolic flavors vary widely frome clovey to smokey to bitter to hot to floral....

Since I know I'm not using a very phenolic yeast, my fermentation temps are under control (never over 70 unless it's deliberate) and my sparge temps are never over 170,

That's pretty high (keep in mind that I'm a lager brewer but even my ales I do at less than 70 °F).

I track my mash pH but I never measure the pH of the liquor beforehand. Should I?

No.

Should my sparge liquor be in a specific pH range?

No though if you do set it to less than 6 you are guaranteed that it can't pull the runoff pH above 6.

I have measured the second runnings pH (the sparge water as it drips through the grain bag into the BK) and that never gets over pH 6 or under SG 1.010.

Sounds good.

As usual, the farther I get into this the less certain I become. I think I will probably start using Campden tabs but I want to be sure my process is OK, too. Thanks for bearing with me guys.

First thing to do is determine whether the judges and your other taster were tasting chlorphenolics of phenolics. If the former the use of Campden tablets or standing uncovered overnight should solve the problem. If phenolic you need to look elsewhere. If this only happened once then consider the possibility of contamination with a wild yeast strain.

 

[Tutsbrew]

I was reading through this thread and became dizzy. I thought simply treating for chlorine and/or chloramine, if they are present in the water you plan to use for brewing, was enough about that. Also, watching mash temp's and pH for tannin extraction (and proper conversion) would be a good plan as well, and that should be that. Tho i 'spose I'm a rather simple person... So, go ahead, what were you saying about chlor-what's-it's?

 

[passedpawn]

I was reading through this thread and became dizzy. I thought simply treating for chlorine and/or chloramine, if they are present in the water you plan to use for brewing, was enough. The rest is great and impressive yadda yadda. But I 'spose some like to read such things and other love to expound it... Feel free to keep the thing here going, kinda fun to see who can out-chemistry who! So, go ahead, what were you saying about chlor-what's-it's?

This is the brew science forum. If you don't like science, this isn't the place for you.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Thanks AJ. I think I have the distinction between phenols and chlorophenols straight now. The judges specifically mentioned a clove flavor (though I still can't taste it) so I guess that does mean phenols and not chlorophenols. When I mentioned not going over 70, I was referring to my brews overall. The IPA that was judged used US-05 fermented at 65F. With different yeasts I may go as high as 68, where appropriate.

So I think next time I will keep a close eye on the entire process and see if anything raises a red flag. Bottom line is I still like the beer as do my family and friends. It's just the engineer geek in me that wants to analyze it and fix it even if I can't taste it myself.

Thanks for the help.

 

[ajdelange]

I thought simply treating for chlorine and/or chloramine, if they are present in the water you plan to use for brewing, was enough about that. Also, watching mash temp's and pH for tannin extraction (and proper conversion) would be a good plan as well, and that should be that. Tho i 'spose I'm a rather simple person...

Apparently. Our job here is to see to it that those that have the intellectual curiosity which drives them to wish to understand the processes get the info they are seeking. If you are not one of those then suggest that you don't read here. At the same time I don't see much point in advertising your limitations.

 

[Hermit]

The judges specifically mentioned a clove flavor (though I still can't taste it)


So I think next time I will keep a close eye on the entire process and see if anything raises a red flag. Bottom line is I still like the beer as do my family and friends. It's just the engineer geek in me that wants to analyze it and fix it even if I can't taste it myself.

Thanks for the help.

Unless you know the judges and respect their opinions don't worry to much about it. I have a hand full of people whose palate I trust AND know I will get an honest opinion from. While contests and judges are well meaning palate fatigue and alcohol play a big role. You may be chasing a ghost here. Ask a few more people specifically if they can taste clove. I'd probably just say, some say they can taste clove but some say they can't and you are trying to figure out if there is something in your process you need to change.

I just looked back to see if you had posted the recipe. Some hops are considered 'spicy' and I could see that being a possible factor too.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Hermit, you definitely have a point about the judges. I've seen score sheets that are radically different for the same beer. That said, they may have been correct in my case because two separate judges said the same thing and my LHBS guy that I trust (BJCP certified) agreed that he could detect it, though not strongly.

The hops schedule is something I hadn't considered. It was FWH with Pacific Jade, late additions of Cascade and Centennial, hop stand with Cascade and dry hop with Cascade and Citra. I hadn't thought of it but Pacific Jade is described as citrus with some black pepper undertones. Food for thought.

As you said, I may just be chasing a ghost at this point. Too many variables. I'll just keep an eye on my process and see what I can learn. Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

Hermit, you definitely have a point about the judges. I've seen score sheets that are radically different for the same beer. That said, they may have been correct in my case because two separate judges said the same thing and my LHBS guy that I trust (BJCP certified) agreed that he could detect it, though not strongly.

The hops schedule is something I hadn't considered. It was FWH with Pacific Jade, late additions of Cascade and Centennial, hop stand with Cascade and dry hop with Cascade and Citra. I hadn't thought of it but Pacific Jade is described as citrus with some black pepper undertones. Food for thought.

As you said, I may just be chasing a ghost at this point. Too many variables. I'll just keep an eye on my process and see what I can learn. Thanks.

Have you had any discussion of phenols in any of your other beers? Can you take a different one to the homebrew guy and see if he picks it up as well, even if he's looking for it.

One thing that can cause phenols is a low level infection. I got some phenolic beer a while back, from a contaminated yeast starter. It tasted Belgiany/hefeweizeny with an American ale yeast. I traced it back as an infection in that second generation starter.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

So far the only other beer I've brought to my LHBS guy was a Belgian so that wasn't much help Today I cracked open the first bottle of a new IPA that was mashed and fermented under nearly identical conditions (same yeast) as the brew in question. They are both about the same IBU and hop schedule, though with different hops. I'll bring one in to my guy and see what he says. I also just did a major clean and sanitize of all my gear. I guess time will tell.