Bubblegum US04 NEIPA culprit?

[sicktght311]

I've been narrowing down my NEIPA methods and recipes and i've got it pretty much on lock now. Solid color, lots of hop aroma, perfect bitterness, but i'm struggling with some bubblegum flavors that show themselves in the finished product. I'm using S-04, but i'm also doing everything you're supposed to do to avoid the ester that S-04 can sometimes produce. I'm pitching plenty of yeast for the OG, i'm fermenting at 64 degrees for the bulk of fermentation measured by an Inkbird ITC308 in the fermenter's thermowell controlling the fermentation chamber's ambient temp, i raise to 68-70 at the end just to clean the beer up, i'm oxygenating plenty by the fact that theres tons of foam when i transfer from BK to fermenter (i use a stainless mesh strainer as i'm pouring into the fermenter), and i'm cold crashing hooked up to co2 before transferring to my keg in a closed transfer.

The beer is delicious, its just this persistent bubblegummy flavor that i keep getting. Thinking of trying US05 for another batch just to see if the clean properties of US05 bring more of the hop flavors out without any esters that i'm getting out of US04.

Any other thoughts to where the flavor could be coming from? Brew process is pretty standard for a NEIPA

50-60% 2-row
10% White Wheat Malt
30-40% Flaked Adjuncts
(Lactose sometimes, around .75lbs per 5 gallon finished batch)

Mashed around 152 for 60 minutes. Fly Sparge 60 minutes. Boil 60 minutes. 60 minute small bittering charge. then 150 degree whirlpool hop. Day 2 dryhop, and then final large dryhop about 2 days before cold crash. 4ish days before kegging

8-9 days Boil Kettle to Keg, 30psi for 24-36hours, then reduced to serving pressure and drink ready within a week. Final gravity usually reached by day 4 or 5 tested by hydrometer, then i dryhop and raise the temp up to 68ish for a couple days, then cold crash down to 36 for a couple days before packaging.

 

[jjw5015]

There's a whole lot of people in the treehouse yeast thread that would love to figure out how you're getting that bubblegum flavor

 

[sicktght311]

The ONLY thing that i can think of, is perhaps i'm getting some esters by pitching slightly above fermentation temp? seems unreasonable since its not far out of the target temps for yeast. With warm summer ground water, i've had a hard time chilling down to below 80, so i'll typically chill to 78-80, put into the fermenter (which drops it another degree or so) and then i'll put it in my fermentation chamber in the late afternoon or evening, and pitch yeast before bed, which typically ends up in the mid 70s. By the time the yeast is doing its thing when i wake up in the morning and check the fermenter, its at fermentation temp and stays there through fermentation. Even so, with 22g of dry sprinkled us04 for a 1.060 to 1.070 OG, it shouldnt be underpitching even with any potential yeast issues at the mid 70s when pitching

 

[sicktght311]

Something maybe for the Treehouse folk to experiment with however hahaha pitch warm and let the fermentation temp come down over 12 hours to target while the yeast multiply

 

[VirginiaHops1]

You mentioned maybe trying US-05 which would probably be a good data point but have you used any of the other NEIPA yeasts with similar grists/hop schedules? Seems like first step should be figuring out if it definitely is the yeast, then you can try to figure out what in the process is pulling that out of the S-04.

I've never gotten bubblegum in my NEIPAs but I've never used S-04 although I have been meaning to.

 

[sicktght311]

I've used A38 and 1318 before, but they were varying grist/hop schedules in my attempt to experiment and narrow down my recipe/timing. I would say of the 6 or 7 i've brewed, the last 3 or 4 have been the same recipe just different hops, but always with S04. Prior to that when i was using 1318 or Juice i didnt notice major bubblegum flavor, but i was also dealing with other issues such as oxidation due to cold crashing, too much hop contact causing bitterness, and changing up my bittering charge and whirlpool temps.

i'm definitely going to brew another soon with a slightly different hop combo, but US05, and see if theres a major change in flavor that can account for it.

 

[couchsending]

That’s a lot of flaked adjuncts! You get better more permanent haze using a lot less, like 5-6% flaked oats.

I find that certain hops coupled with lots of wheat will produce some bubblegum type flavors/aromas.

Most likely it’s cause you’re pitching warm.

You don’t need to worry about aerating wort with dry yeast.

Too you could probably get away with pitching a little less yeast. You prolly only need 1.5 packets. IMHO the least amount of yeast you can use and still
Get a successful fermentation the better your hoppy beers will be.

 

[moreb33rplz]

FWIW I use s-04 a lot, including several NEIPA, and never had a bubblegum flavor.

 

[Terpene]

The flavor/aroma that most people recognize as "bubblegum" has both fruit and spice notes, notably including both banana and clove. (See, e.g., https://candyflavor.com/How_To_Make_Bubble_Gum_Flavor.html)

The banana aroma from some strains is attributable to the ester isoamyl acetate. The clove aroma in some strains is attributable to the phenol 4-vinyl-guiacol (4-VG).

Strains that can produce phenols are referred to as Pof+ (phenolic off flavor) phenotype and are characterized by the presence of enzymes that can decarboxylate ferulic acid into 4-VG. Ferulic acid is a component of wort that comes from the malt.

Most brewing strains are Pof-, meaning they do *not* have the ability to decarboxylate ferulic acid and therefore cannot produce 4-VG, and therefore do *not* produce clove flavors/aromas. Belgian strains, hefeweizen strains and many wild strains are exceptions -- they're Pof+ strains.

S-04 is an english strain known for its ester production, but it is a Pof- strain and therefore cannot produce 4-VG, so it should never produce "bubblegum" aromas or flavors, because it's missing the necessary clove component.

So, to the OP, did you pitch your S-04 directly from the packet or was it re-pitched from a previous batch? Is it possible that your S-04 culture was contaminated by wild yeast?

Other than contamination with a Pof+ strain or wild yeast, I'm not sure there's any good explanation for your observation of bubblegum flavors from S-04. But wild yeast contamination explains it nicely.

 

[Dgallo]

Is anyone else picking up bubblegum in your beer? Specifically someone else that is well versed in NEIPA and the brewing process? If you’re the only one picking it up than maybe you’re a weirdo..... lol just kidding but all joking aside has anyone else noticed it? I’ve been using kviek Hornindal recently and I swear I taste a slight Belgian character in it but my brother in law and a buddy that lives near me, both who brew and typically brew this style, think I’m crazy

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Is anyone else picking up bubblegum in your beer? Specifically someone else that is well versed in NEIPA and the brewing process? If you’re the only one picking it up than maybe you’re a weirdo..... lol just kidding but all joking aside has anyone else noticed it? I’ve been using kviek Hornindal recently and I swear I taste a slight Belgian character in it but my brother in law and a buddy that lives near me, both who brew and typically brew this style, think I’m crazy

I've done 5 batches with Omega's hornindal and I feel like I'm getting an orangey flavor from it. I gave a little to a neighbor buddy who homebrews and he described it as 'lemony'. Definitely is a very estery yeast.

 

[sicktght311]

Update on this. Might have been some suspended yeast or hops, because as this has filled in with carbonation, and settled down in the keg, the heavy bubblegum flavor has subsided and this beer tastes phenomenal. So perhaps it is the US04, but just before it settled out. Cashmere/Citra Oat Cream "Other Half" style NEIPA