British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[Tribe Fan]

This thread is gold

I started brewing a few years before becoming a 7 year expat for a London based firm. I drank a lot of british cask ales. This all makes a lot of sense.

You can go to three different pubs on the same street in London, order a Wells Bombardier at each one and get three different beers. Fresh high volume places are a slice of heaven in a glass. Some are just thin and losing their life others start to turn sour. I've bought loads of store bought ESB, Hobgoblin, London Pride, OSH, Old Peculiar in the UK and the bottled stuff is always a muted cousin of the cask versions.

Seems like these yeasts attenuate forever depending upon O2, FG and temp. For cask ales, they want it to ferment slowly for carbonation and O2 will be introduced with the engines. Makes sense that when you homebrew and bottle you introduce enough O2 and priming sugar to restart a fermentation and change the beer. I would tell you the off flavors that have been described on this thread from bottled beers with 1968 seem pretty familiar to me. Old cask ales. I've had more than one pint I've sent back, and even been warned a few times during the pour to give it back if I don't like it.

Conversely, when you are kegging it at low temps and starving it of O2, it stops and keeps it's profile. Much like high volume pubs that are going through casks regularly.

Have a pale 1469 fermenting now and an ESB recipe in the wings. I had a Timothy Taylor one off summer cask ale in a pub around the corner once and it was fantastic. Blond low abv ale, apples and pears (sound familiar?) with a bright grapefruit finish that was almost Americanish. Going for a cleaner version of this with EKG's and Saaz. I will definitely get the character of the yeast. The sample out of the kettle was the cleanest I've ever done. Malt and hops and nothing else. Not coincidentally, it's the first time I treated my RO water. I'm going to top crop it today, about 36 hours into the ferment. Thanks to this thread, I'm going to make sure I get enough in the jars to repitch.

I can control the ferm temps, but I bottle everything right now, so I'm going to have to figure that part out. I may have to pull out the old corney kegs and get a CO2 setup for it before I do the ESB.

Thanks to the founders of this thread, it's still gold 8 years later.

 

[Tribe Fan]

The 1469 Ale is now 2 days in the keg and already fantastic. This wort was exceptionally clean going into the fermenter and it is not disappointing coming out of the keg. Crystal clear, very pale blond. Malt, yeast and hops, in that order, cycle straight through the palette.

86% MO, 6% flaked oats, 6% instant rice, 3% acid malt. EKG's and Saaz to 27 IBU.

This started fermentation at 66F, up to a high of 73 then settled in at 70. I top cropped and discarded the krausen (and the green hop islands) early and top crop harvested at 36 hours. Open ferment in a large mouth wine fermenter with the lid loosely screwed on. I transferred to a keg on day 9 and all of the top cake had floc'd to the bottom of the fermenter. Cold crashed to 45F (as low as I can go) and carb'd to 12 psi.

This beer is already excellent at 12 days old and I cannot wait to continue sampling over the coming weeks. This one will not last long.

Thanks again to everyone on this thread. It really paid off for me.

 

[FunkyMunk]

This is a great thread, and I found it just in time for my most recent bitter. I had a jar of Imperial Pub yeast (Fullers strain) saved from about a year and a half ago in the fridge, and built up a 2 L starter. Oxygenated well and did a semi-open fermentation (lid on loosely until about 1.015 or so, then put it on tight with an airlock and dropped temp to 64°F). It came all the way down to 1.009 (from 1.041, 77% AA) and is hopefully done or close to (coming up on 72 hours post-pitch). The hop bitterness might be overwhelming the malt a bit (I ran into problems with my wort chiller so the wort took a while to cool and probably isomerized some alpha acids in my late additions) but I really like the ester profile that came from fermenting around 68°. I read this entire thread and came up with a couple of questions that weren't really answered in any of the posts. (I realize I'm a little late to the party but hopefully the thread isn't quite dead yet...)

1) When taking gravity samples at the end of fermentation to check for diacetyl and decide when to cold crash, how much should one worry about introducing oxygen? I guess if there's still some yeast activity then O2 could still be scrubbed, but my stance is normally to err on the side of protecting the finished beer from O2 as much as possible at this point. Basically, if my beer is at the tail end of fermenting and I don't detect any diacetyl, is there any reason to keep opening my bucket to take gravity samples before I cold crash?

2) There was some talk about top cropping, and I was wondering if it's worth skimming the top of the krausen to take away the hop debris and other detritus that floats to the top even if one isn't actually harvesting yeast this way (seeing as how the Fullers strain doesn't seem to make a good top cropper). I've read elsewhere that one of the side benefits of top cropping is the removal of these compounds, presumably to avoid the off flavors they might contribute, but wasn't sure if it should be done if there isn't a big thick krausen.

 

[thehaze]

I can try to answer your first question. I do a lot of bottle conditioned beers, and although I don't drink, nor brew IPAs anymore ( except maybe once or twice a year ), I still try to avoid O2 as much as possible. If you are following an established/well working fermentation schedule, your beer is definitely finished fermenting at day 14. You shouldn't really need to open your fermenter and check anything. Diacetyl should be taken care of by day 14 and your beer would've reached FG. If you are cropping the yeast, then you would do that during fermentation, or at least is what I would do. Any O2 that comes in at this step, will certainly be scrubbed out. Also, I will add that once you get to know certain yeast and how they ferment/behave, the necessity of taking gravity samples all the time, will slowly disappear. A 1.050-1.065 beer will never need more than 10-15 days in the fermenter.

I personally only open my fermenter once, and that is bottling day ( except beers I add adjuncts to, like vanilla, oak chips, cocoa beans, etc. ). At that point I take a gravity sample and I bottle. So the beer comes in contact with O2 only one time. It will referment in the bottle and some O2 will go away, or at least is what I like to think. Dark, complex beers do not take damage over time, not even after 9-10 months, so I must be doing something right most times.

Cold crashing can introduce O2 in the beer, unless you take meaures against it. Cold crashing works great with all styles of beer, and I feel it helps beer to become " clearer ", " better " and " more focused ". I am not a stickler for brilliant clear beer, but some styles do look prettier with a certain degree of clarity, especially those with pretty colours, like orange, deep orange, amber, light and dark red, etc.

 

[Landlord]

Have also decided that maybe it is oxygen that is killing the malt and ester characteristics of our English beer, at least in part. I still believe letting the fermentation go for too long lets the yeast clean up too much and that a cold crash earlier than later really helps to lock some of those characteristics in. But I'm also remembering all the times that a beer tasted great from the fermenter but lost much of the character after bottling or kegging. Really does seem like the oxygen picked up in transfer could be a major player there. So I've got a fermentasaurus on the way and plan to do this next batch in there, with plans to serve straight from it. Ideally, I'd drink from the fermentasaurus for as long as the batch lasts, but it will keep me from putting anything else in the fermentation fridge so I'll have to cut it short eventually. Looking forward to seeing what an English beer with absolutely no cold-side oxidation will taste like over the first couple weeks, though. Stay tuned.

Welcome back KingbrianI, OP of this great thread...personally I am a bit skeptical that 02 is a big problem for English beers, just because I dont think traditional english breweries have ever done much to exclude oxygen, at least havent been too anal about it. Open fermentations and rousing late in the fermentation cycle presumably mean plenty of O2 getting in before packaging. (plus O2 will be getting into cask ale once its served). However, maybe the traditional process of racking to cask a few points above FG does illiminate O2 in comparison to a cold crash and keg, as you would expect all that extra active yeast and fermentation in the cask to be stripping the beer of any O2?

I suspect that lack of malt depth and esters in homebrew is really because not many of us (including me) are serving from proper casks. I find that bottled and canned versions of uk beers, even fresh from the uk brewery also lack the malt depth and ester character of cask ale. I find that my bottle conditioned bitters are definately better than kegged bitter for sure, but not as good as cask. I am planning on experimenting a bit more to try and make my corny kegs a bit more cask-like, ie proper conditioning in the cask. Maybe even racking a few points above FG, to make sure I have plenty of yeast in contact with my beer. Serving by gravity through the gas hose, and only hooking up a touch of CO2 once I cant get any more out the keg. I really wish someone would manufacture proper steel 1 gallon casks and spiles ect for the homebrewer, I think 5 of those would be ideal for me.

Also I am very excited to hear how your duel strains work out, I have been toying with the idea of doing something similar. There doesnt seem to be any consensus on whether you can repitch once combined, some people suggest you can, and others you cant. Apparantly, the bootleg biology neepah yeast features multiple strains of english yeast, could be worth trying that one?

 

[kmarkstevens]

Northern Brewer sent me over to this thread, and I'm slowly going thru this treasure trove.

 

[TheMadKing]

I know this is a bit of a zombie thread, and I've read the entire thing at one point, but all the Golden nuggets are now buried in 67 pages. So here's a summary of what I'm doing after reading this thread and listening to the master brewers podcast on cask ales, can any of the more experienced folks correct me if I'm wrong here please? My line of thinking is that this is a traditional technique, so trying to get too fancy with the temp control may be counterproductive.

The temp regime should mimic a cask ale temperature profile where it's chilled as cool as the water can go, fermented at some ambient but controlled temperature, transferred to a cask just before fg is reached, dry hopped in the cask, and then conditioned at 54-55F (the key temperature according to the podcast) until consumed. That temperature both allows for final cleanup of undesirable compounds, and dials in carbonation at low PSI to the proper level for cask ale.

So here's my process

-Pick your fravorite English strain, mine are 1968 and 1318

-Pitch an adequate starter of 1-1.5milliom cells per ml per degree Plato

-Pitch at 64F

-Let it free rise to 68F until nearing the end of primary fermentation (about 4-5 days) and Krausen falls

-transfer to packaging while there's still 1-3 gravity points remaining (this is key to keep oxidation down, as well as carbonate)

-dry hop if desired

-Condition at 55F until desired taste and desired carbonation are reached

I prefer to condition in plastic cubitainers so that carbonation is at ~1.5 volumes at ~7 PSI and serve by gravity

Thoughts?

 

[Snuffy]

How do I brew English Ales? https://www.austinhomebrew.com/Clone-All-Grain-British-Irish-Ale-Kits_c_403.html
About to brew the Old Speckled Hen clone this weekend.

I only read the first and last pages of this thread - so if that link has already been posted then... yeah, well <pbthlllt>

 

[SirWilberForce]

Quick question for you guys based on some of the info I've digested from this thread. Have an ESB that is on Day 8 of fermentation with WLP002. Pitched at 63F and let it rise to 68 throughout the first 1.5 days. Around day 3-4 I was sitting at 1.021, but with a good bit of diacytyl. I did drop the temp down to 66 for a day or two then got nervous and turned it back up to 68. Been there for the last couple of days. Still feel like it has a little bit too much diacytel. I'm going to go ahead and transfer it to a serving keg tonight to get it off the yeast cake. Should I raise the temp higher than 68 in an attempt to get the diacytel to clean up before I cold crash it? Or leave it longer at 68F?

 

[TheMadKing]

Quick question for you guys based on some of the info I've digested from this thread. Have an ESB that is on Day 8 of fermentation with WLP002. Pitched at 63F and let it rise to 68 throughout the first 1.5 days. Around day 3-4 I was sitting at 1.021, but with a good bit of diacytyl. I did drop the temp down to 66 for a day or two then got nervous and turned it back up to 68. Been there for the last couple of days. Still feel like it has a little bit too much diacytel. I'm going to go ahead and transfer it to a serving keg tonight to get it off the yeast cake. Should I raise the temp higher than 68 in an attempt to get the diacytel to clean up before I cold crash it? Or leave it longer at 68F?

I would transfer to your keg, prime it, and then condition it at 54F for a couple weeks to clean it up, but not too much

 

[Argyll Gargoyle]

I just learned of SafAle F2 - a bottle/cask conditioning yeast that preferentially eats simple sugars. Anybody think this could be a way to deal with the bottle conditioning woes of 1968 in this thread?

 

[rmr9]

This is one of the greater threads on this site, I’ve read it all in gearing up for my next British ale adventure!

I’ve been thinking about yeast strain selection and handling to improve upon my previous bitters and milds especially as I move exclusively to cask conditioning. In the past I’ve used wy1968 and wlp002 and I’ve definitely experienced the deterioration of bottle and cask conditioned beers using these strains. Namely, they turn into over carbonated cidery/tart disappointments after 3 weeks in bottle or polypin. I would say this happens about 75% of the times I’ve used it. Has anyone experienced the same thing with Imperial A09? My understanding is this is supposed to be the Fuller’s strain as well.

 

[Miraculix]

This is one of the greater threads on this site, I’ve read it all in gearing up for my next British ale adventure!

I’ve been thinking about yeast strain selection and handling to improve upon my previous bitters and milds especially as I move exclusively to cask conditioning. In the past I’ve used wy1968 and wlp002 and I’ve definitely experienced the deterioration of bottle and cask conditioned beers using these strains. Namely, they turn into over carbonated cidery/tart disappointments after 3 weeks in bottle or polypin. I would say this happens about 75% of the times I’ve used it. Has anyone experienced the same thing with Imperial A09? My understanding is this is supposed to be the Fuller’s strain as well.

If 09 is called pub, then I never had this. I made my best beer ever with it, it's in the recipe section and called Miraculix Best for a reason

I love this yeast!!!

 

[rmr9]

Yes A09 is called pub. Maybe I’ll give this one a try with the Fuller’s fermentation schedule from this thread. I know there are quite a bit of differences between the “same” strain from different suppliers so maybe this will work a bit better. I’d sure hate to have a whole pin go south in a hurry!

 

[Miraculix]

Yes A09 is called pub. Maybe I’ll give this one a try with the Fuller’s fermentation schedule from this thread. I know there are quite a bit of differences between the “same” strain from different suppliers so maybe this will work a bit better. I’d sure hate to have a whole pin go south in a hurry!

This one is different to wlp 002. I don't like 002, different flavour and fusels above 20c.

But I really love pub. But make sure that you include 10% simple sugars in the grist and mash looooong and low to boost the attenuation.

Also don't go too high regarding og. 1.04 is high enough for the yeast to shine!

 

[kmarkstevens]

If 09 is called pub, then I never had this. I made my best beer ever with it, it's in the recipe section and called Miraculix Best for a reason

I love this yeast!!!

Where do we find the recipe for Miraculix Best?

According to Suregork, WLP002 and Wyeast 1968 are close but not the same. Unclear the providence of Imperial Pub, but the Imperial founders all came from Wyeast.

I can report that I have done garage comparison "yeast offs" with split batches between WLP002, 1968 & Pub. Multiple times between 002 and Pub. I always preferred Pub. Pub always finished about 2-3 points drier than 002.

rmr9 - Pub has lasted well for me in the bottle.

You might want to watch the WLP Yeast Vault for WLP085. It's a mixed strain of 002 and probably 006 or 007. WLP won't confirm the strains. Anyhoo, I like this a lot and definately prefer over 002. To be honest, I may like it simply because about 3 years ago I was able to visit the white labs tasting room in San Diego for about 15 minutes (just long enough to slam a flight and get a vial of 85).

 

[Miraculix]

Where do we find the recipe for Miraculix Best?

According to Suregork, WLP002 and Wyeast 1968 are close but not the same. Unclear the providence of Imperial Pub, but the Imperial founders all came from Wyeast.

I can report that I have done garage comparison "yeast offs" with split batches between WLP002, 1968 & Pub. Multiple times between 002 and Pub. I always preferred Pub. Pub always finished about 2-3 points drier than 002.

rmr9 - Pub has lasted well for me in the bottle.

You might want to watch the WLP Yeast Vault for WLP085. It's a mixed strain of 002 and probably 006 or 007. WLP won't confirm the strains. Anyhoo, I like this a lot and definately prefer over 002. To be honest, I may like it simply because about 3 years ago I was able to visit the white labs tasting room in San Diego for about 15 minutes (just long enough to slam a flight and get a vial of 85).

I made fewer comparisons than you, but can confirm your result with my limited trials.

Here's the recipe, however, I simplified the mash a bit.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/miraculix-best-classic-english-ale.661073/

 

[kmarkstevens]

I made fewer comparisons than you, but can confirm your result with my limited trials.

Here's the recipe, however, I simplified the mash a bit.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/miraculix-best-classic-english-ale.661073/

Appreciate you sharing, and now I'm gonna be up past my bedtime reading 6 pages! Have already put this in the brewing pipeline.

 

[porterguy]

Okay, I admit I jumped to the end of this thread after page 5 questions (although I do plan to finish reading it all). LOVE the info. Perhaps a dumb question...if I cold crash to keep the yeast from cleaning up too much, might that affect the overall carbonation level?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It'll be fine, you really don't need much yeast for cask/bottle conditioning.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So, noobish brewer thinking about getting to use liquid, english yeast since I am not really pleased with the (lack of) character I get from dry varieties.
My thought is to redo a ESB i made with s-04 when I run out of my few remaining dry packs I will use for some porters and stouts etc where ester character isn't as important as in other styles.
The yeast I'm thinking about is WLP002, and I was just gonna check if I have understood the process of using this yeast somewhat.
As i understand this yeast in particular and liquid english strains in general can sometimes need some persuasion to not stall and attenuate all the way.

The opinions seem to differ whether how advanced the fermentation routines must be, but I am probably good with using variuos sugar in my recipes that don't have a bunch of specialty malt and uses the lower attenuating strains.
pitching the yeast a bit colder than ferm temp,
aeriate well, put it in the FC and let it rise to desired ferm temp and then aeriate again after a few hours
letting it ferment at 18 to just over 20c depending on specific strain
rousing it a couple times a day during the first 4-5 days.
Some say open fermentation is to prefer, I ferment 10L batches in 15L buckets and use S shaped airlocks, wich won't give any pressure to talk about and allow some air exchange, this seems to be enough according to most except the most hardcore technofiles.
Am I missing something or have I somewhat understood it right?

 

[z-bob]

So, noobish brewer thinking about getting to use liquid, english yeast since I am not really pleased with the (lack of) character I get from dry varieties.
My thought is to redo a ESB i made with s-04 when I run out of my few remaining dry packs I will use for some porters and stouts etc where ester character isn't as important as in other styles.
The yeast I'm thinking about is WLP002, and I was just gonna check if I have understood the process of using this yeast somewhat.
As i understand this yeast in particular and liquid english strains in general can sometimes need some persuasion to not stall and attenuate all the way.

The opinions seem to differ whether how advanced the fermentation routines must be, but I am probably good with using variuos sugar in my recipes that don't have a bunch of specialty malt and uses the lower attenuating strains.
pitching the yeast a bit colder than ferm temp,
aeriate well, put it in the FC and let it rise to desired ferm temp and then aeriate again after a few hours
letting it ferment at 18 to just over 20c depending on specific strain
rousing it a couple times a day during the first 4-5 days.
Some say open fermentation is to prefer, I ferment 10L batches in 15L buckets and use S shaped airlocks, wich won't give any pressure to talk about and allow some air exchange, this seems to be enough according to most except the most hardcore technofiles.
Am I missing something or have I somewhat understood it right?

It sounds good to me, but I don't know. I use a bucket with a lid not-snapped-down for a primary for most of my beers (English or not), then add an ounce or two of sugar when I transfer it to a carboy and air lock after the fermentation slows way down. The sugar and the oxygen that I can't avoid adding during the transfer kick-start the yeast again, and that scavenges the oxygen. Then I bottle directly from the carboy without transferring to a bottling bucket. (I individually prime each bottle)

That probably doesn't answer your questions, but you can roust the yeast by giving it a stir when the fermentation slows way down.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I would recommend using Imperia Pub vs WLP002. I've done multiple yeast offs of Pub vs WLP002, and Pub always wins on my palate and at the HBS.

Supposedly even SLP002 is not the true Fullers yeast. I can't find the post by @Northern_Brewer but he explained howWLP002 can't be the real Fuller's yeast as it does not have the marmalade flavors (at ABV 1048 or higher). He linked to the Fuller's head brewer who explained the marmalade flavor. Pub seems to be close but not the same as WLP002 (attentuation is a bit different).

I've got a Pub with First Gold hops maturing in a keg right now. will report back on the marmalade or lack thereof in a few days

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Thanks for replies! I am probably gonna keep it in the same vessel, since I am not to keen on transferring during fermentation.
In the first pages of the thread there seemed to be consensus that if you ferment in a bucket with plenty of headspace the conditions are pretty similair to open fermentation(no pressure, some air exchange) and keeping the lid on or off didn't really produce any notable difference. And keeping it closed feels safer than a open or semi open bucket...
Rousing when the kreuzen goes down makes a bit more sense tbh, to reactivate the yeast and get it back in suspension if it floccs down before being done all the way, suppose this is to be done in conjuncture with gravity readings to be sure it is at all needed?
Imperial yeasts can be a bit tricky to get here in sweden, but I might try the wlp005, since it seems similair to 002 but not as prone to premature floccing and better suited for bottling.

One more thing, I have a spigot at the bottom of my fermenter, for easier transfer to bottling bucket and gravity readings, and had a what I think was wild yeast infection from some beer that got stuck in the nozzle at one sampling and brought some **** with it during bottling.
So I think about taping a plastic cup to the bucket where the spigot is and keeping it submerged in starsan during fermentation, to avoid anything growing there if some beer drops are left after sampling. I also noticed that they are never 100% tight and there will always be a little leakage. Yay or nay?

 

[schmurf]

@Erik the Anglophile, https://shop.humle.se/jast/alejast/flytande/pub-imperial-yeast-a09-ekologisk there you have it.
@kmarkstevens, it's been a while since I had it now, but I never had more prominent marmelade flavour than with Pub and First Gold together... it's about time I do it again soon!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Might try pub, altogh I would prefer a yeast that won't need a diacetyl rest and is not so hard to work with such as 002 or pub, might try 005.

 

[Miraculix]

Might try pub, altogh I would prefer a yeast that won't need a diacetyl rest and is not so hard to work with such as 002 or pub, might try 005.

I never did a diacetyl rest with pub. Always fermented it around 20c anbient temperature without further control and the results were very good that way. It's a very quick yeast btw. I mostly bottled after seven days, although a bit more time in the fermenter certainly doesn't hurt.

In fact, pub was one of the most easy yeasts I brewed with. 002 however, completely different story....

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Been reading around a little more, probably gonna use wlp 002 or 005 for a re-do of my ESB wich is a decent ale with s04 but lacks the depth and complexity from the yeast I look for, as a first go at liquid yeast.
Will pitch slightly colder, ferment at 18-19c until Kreuzen falls down and take a gravity reading, if it's way too high I will arouse(couldn't help myself) the yesst a bit and wait a little, and raise the temp to 20-21c if it is nearing what is a reasonable FG, leave it a couple days and check if the gravity has stabilized.
Do I need to lower the temp for a couple days after the gravity is stable, or can I keep it at the higher end until bottling?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wouldn't worry too much about the diacetyl thing - a bit of diacetyl is expected in British styles.

Just about every British yeast benefits from rousing during fermentation but again I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'll just keep it the same temp then, check gravity when primary slows down and rouse it a bit if needed, and let it ride for a couple more days after I get a stable FG.