British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[Wig]

If my ESB holds up, I'll enter it. I've got some seriously wack scoresheets on this beer, I'd like to see it judged exclusively against the same style, cool idea.



You really don't have to do that. I've done multiple tests with my equipment, even just duct-taped the the side of the fermenter, no insulation, the temp in the center of the fermenter is pretty much the same.

But, I had an ice pop sleeve.

Had a taste just now and gravity sample. It is at 1.043, from 1.056. had a nice fruity citrus taste I hope will stay. A bit harsh on the finish though. Very bitter, but it'll clean up.

 

[bierhaus15]

bierhaus15, what method for making invert sugar did you end up using?

I swear making invert sugar is my new obsession. Bored - make invert! Lots of 'work' to do - make invert! Need to get away from the GF - make invert!

I've been following the http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert method. So far I've done a few batches of No. 1 and 2. and a batch of No.3, though I'm not too sure how I like it. I even tried the blending method which I'm not crazy about. I think the backstrap adds a bit of a rough flavor.

 

[GuldTuborg]

How big of a difference is there between no.1 and no.2? What kinds of flavors/changes do you detect in the finished product for each?

I'll admit, I used to "poo-poo" the idea of using invert sugars, but I'm starting to get curious about experimenting some.

 

[motobrewer]

rebrew of the mild with 1318 is on tap. twang on the finish is definitely minimized, and will probably fade away completely in the next week.

much fuller mouthfeel, even tho they're both the same gravities and malt bill. Bit sweeter, which is nice, and much more chocolate notes, but i'm not noticing the coffee that was in the notty brew.

overall? I like the 1318 better. pushed the flavor up a notch. has a fuller mouthfeel but a slightly less clean finish because of it.

fyi, i have a terrible nose, so I can't give any aroma differences.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

How big of a difference is there between no.1 and no.2? What kinds of flavors/changes do you detect in the finished product for each?

I'll admit, I used to "poo-poo" the idea of using invert sugars, but I'm starting to get curious about experimenting some.

Just based on the blending option on the unholymess site, it doesn't appear to be that much of a difference.

I'm about to brew an ESB and have some half-pint mason jars (almost exactly 10 oz syrup by weight each) of the #1 syrup I made with Turbinado sugar. I did the calculation for turning some #1 plus blackstrap into #2. It came out to about ~3.3g of blackstrap with the remainder (~276.7g) being #1. That's a pretty small ratio.

 

[bierhaus15]

I've been using demerara sugar for the No. 1 & 2 without blending and I think there is a lot of difference between the two. The No. 1 is much lighter in flavor, similar to honey and has much more fruity flavors - apple, pear, grape. The No. 2 on the other hand is more like a maple syrup, darker and instead of light fruit flavors I get lots of dark, rummy, dried fruit - raisin, prune, and dried cherry. The one batch of No. 3 I made is similar to the no. 2, though it is somewhat roasty and I used muscovado sugar for it. I'll probably use it in a stout, it would totally overwhelm a bitter.

I did try using the dilution method with some no1 and backstrap. It turned out to be the same color as no 2, though the flavor was totally different. Tasted like a diluted molasses without any dried fruit flavors and was somewhat 'hay' like in aroma. Making invert is really easy, only hard part is maintaining the temperatures and standing by the stove for an hour or more.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I've been using demerara sugar for the No. 1 & 2 without blending and I think there is a lot of difference between the two. The No. 1 is much lighter in flavor, similar to honey and has much more fruity flavors - apple, pear, grape. The No. 2 on the other hand is more like a maple syrup, darker and instead of light fruit flavors I get lots of dark, rummy, dried fruit - raisin, prune, and dried cherry. The one batch of No. 3 I made is similar to the no. 2, though it is somewhat roasty and I used muscovado sugar for it. I'll probably use it in a stout, it would totally overwhelm a bitter.

I did try using the dilution method with some no1 and backstrap. It turned out to be the same color as no 2, though the flavor was totally different. Tasted like a diluted molasses without any dried fruit flavors and was somewhat 'hay' like in aroma. Making invert is really easy, only hard part is maintaining the temperatures and standing by the stove for an hour or more.

Interesting stuff. I asked unholymess about muscovado earlier itt (EDIT: actually it was the invert sugar thread) and he indicated it would prob have too much impurities. I considered making #2 for this ESB but I still have 2.5 mason jars of #1 and wanted to use it up. But if the difference is that big I'll just make some #2. I've got some Belgians coming up and will be able to use most of this stuff up. I agree, it is very easy to do.

 

[AnOldUR]

-wy1318, my new favorite. . .

Thanks for this and other information provided in this thread. Kegged a Wy1318 Ordinary Bitter this morning. The hydro sample was a distinctively malty flavor with a nice balance of fruity esters. My wife is the real fan of British beers in the family. While she was home for lunch I convinced her to taste. Even young and flat (not her), she declared it a winner.

Orfy’s Mild recipe was the starting point. Backed off on the Chocolate, bumped up the Fuggles, mashed a little lower. Did my best to twist it into a Bitter. 1.041 OG, 1.010 FG. I was shooting for 1.039, but still don’t have a handle on these low gravity beers. It may have dropped lower, but I cold crashed at 1.010. Got busy, so it sat at 33 degrees for almost two weeks. Gave it a 24 hour D-rest at room temperature before kegging.

Again, thanks to all the player in this thread for helping create this wonderful Bitter.

 

[bigljd]

By the way, my first special bitter brew ever (Jamil's recipe from Brewing Classic Styles) that I brewed about 6 weeks ago and gave updates on in this thread took 3rd for English Pale Ales in last weekend's Colonial Cup competition in Charleston SC. :rockin:
This thread was very helpful with that brew, so thanks again! I'm going to enter that same special bitter along with a new ESB that I did a few weeks back into the Charlotte competition next month. I'll post the results.
I also made comments about not boiling my wort hard enough (my batches were barely boiling before), and have boiled the last few batches harder and it definitely makes a difference. I think it helps caramelize some of the sugars and makes for a fuller bodied, more complex flavor. My new ESB (and other brews) have a much richer, complex flavor.

 

[Wig]

Congrats big, great accomplishment!

I took a sample last night and my yeast really went to work. My SG went from 1.056 to 1.010. Beer Smith had my estimated FG at 1.018. An apparent attenuation of 80%, real attenutaion of 65%. So when White Labs on their site says Attenuation for this yeast (002) is 63-70%, I presume that is REAL attenuation?

So after 2 days at 43F, 6 days after the brew day, I could probably carb it. I did get a little butter in the nose, even less in the taste. I read low amounts of dicetyl can contribute a "slick" mouthfeel, and I believe I got that. My wife didn't get any aroma or taste at all. She said it was very smooth. She isn't familiar with dicetyl properties, so she may not be able to articulate them if she did find them. I mentioned the butter but she still didn't find it. Maybe I did a mental "was looking for it so I found it" scenario.

Going to do the dicetyl test from "Yeast" later today. to see if I need to warm it up. Also, the harshness I found a couple days ago has really subsided. Instead of being harsh, it is more like a lot of bitterness. Which i still don't understand, I keep mu IBUs on the low end of the Beer Smith style guidelines. This one had 32. Maybe it is a 'young' harshness?

 

[GuldTuborg]

So when White Labs on their site says Attenuation for this yeast (002) is 63-70%, I presume that is REAL attenuation?

Nope. Apparent. You just got more than the typical fermentation. It happens all the time. That could be for all kinds of reasons (low mash, simple sugar additions, high ending fermentation temp, healthy yeast, etc.).

 

[russbaker]

This thread rocks! Thanks for all the info KB, Bierhaus and others. I have been messing with an ESB fermented with WL002 for sometime now with two major problems: an apparant hole in the malt profile and a sour flavor that develops after bottling. I think I can fix both of those issues now.

 

[jmo88]

This thread rocks! Thanks for all the info KB, Bierhaus and others. I have been messing with an ESB fermented with WL002 for sometime now with two major problems: an apparant hole in the malt profile and a sour flavor that develops after bottling. I think I can fix both of those issues now.

I've had zero luck bottle conditioning English ales. Mine were good for a week or so but went south pretty fast. Kegging has made a world of difference, and you get to pour a proper pint to boot! Bottle conditioning English ales just seems wrong to me, kind of like a bottle conditioned pilsner, it's just not right.

 

[Randar]

Well, I brewed a Best Bitter on Sunday and split to 3 batches for fermentation. 1469, 1026, and 1318. Chilled to 60 and pitched there, will let rise to 68 which is the point where my chamber is set to kick in.

Can't wait to examine the differences in these 3. I had originally intended to do a 4-way comparison with Ringwood in there, but the Ringwood did not grow. Will try to add it to the experiment when I do an ESB with these techniques next.

 

[bierhaus15]

Well, I brewed a Best Bitter on Sunday and split to 3 batches for fermentation. 1469, 1026, and 1318.

Nice! I have found 1026 and 1469 to be pretty similar in terms of malt character and fruitiness, though the 1026 is a bit more neutral in flavor and can be quite tart. First batch with 1026 I let ride a bit high on the ferment temps (72F) and the resulting beer tasted like Coopers Sparkling ale.

 

[Randar]

Nice! I have found 1026 and 1469 to be pretty similar in terms of malt character and fruitiness, though the 1026 is a bit more neutral in flavor and can be quite tart. First batch with 1026 I let ride a bit high on the ferment temps (72F) and the resulting beer tasted like Coopers Sparkling ale.

So keeping it in-step with 1496 and 1318 should be fine then? Rise to 68 till finished and crash it as best as possible?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Well, I brewed a Best Bitter on Sunday and split to 3 batches for fermentation. 1469, 1026, and 1318. Chilled to 60 and pitched there, will let rise to 68 which is the point where my chamber is set to kick in.

Can't wait to examine the differences in these 3. I had originally intended to do a 4-way comparison with Ringwood in there, but the Ringwood did not grow. Will try to add it to the experiment when I do an ESB with these techniques next.

Excellent. Make a point of it to post back with some tasting notes, when the time comes.

 

[JuanKenobi]

I don't have a fermentation chamber yet, but I have strategic locations all over the house that I use as temperature control (except during summer) so I think I did alright following the 64-68-64 method on my ordinary bitter.

I pitched on Friday around 6pm. The ambient was a little low and it only ramped up to 66* in the first 24 hours so I moved it for a night and ended up hitting 70* for a bit, but I'm not too worried about it. I pulled a tester last night (Tuesday) and it was at just about expected FG. The malt character was fantastic. Much better than I've ever had with this yeast in the past. There is definitely a ton of diacetyl, but not totally overwhelming. I'm going to take another tester tonight to see if it's actually finished and to get some better flavor notes (Had a pretty good buzz on from a kegging session last night).

So, I'm wondering what the consensus would be on the next step. The temp was almost down to ambient (62*) this morning. So, should I let it rest at 62* until I'm ready to crash or warm it back up to ~68*?

 

[KingBrianI]

Juan, I'd let it sit around 62-64 until you are ready to crash cool. At those temps it will be slowly cleaning up so you'll be able to crash cool when it hits the sweet spot for you.

 

[JuanKenobi]

Juan, I'd let it sit around 62-64 until you are ready to crash cool. At those temps it will be slowly cleaning up so you'll be able to crash cool when it hits the sweet spot for you.

Thanks. This makes perfect sense.

 

[Randar]

Well, I brewed a Best Bitter on Sunday and split to 3 batches for fermentation. 1469, 1026, and 1318. Chilled to 60 and pitched there, will let rise to 68 which is the point where my chamber is set to kick in.

So after 7 days, I am from 1.042 to ~1.012 on all 3 and have brought the temp back down to 63. As of right now, they are 3 very different beers. the 1469 is a little cleaner than I expected and the 1318 is quite fruity (my favorite of the 3 right now). 1026 is pretty good, can't quite put my finger on it. Not as much ester as the 1318 but a little more interesting than 1469.

Will crash them as much as I can in about 24-48 hours from now.

 

[bierhaus15]

If I plan on holding the contest in early June, would that work for everyone? I don't want to put it off too long because it gets really hot around here if I go much after that. I'd hate for the shipments to be in trucks and warehouses at 100+ degrees.

Is this still going on? I'll be brewing a bunch of stuff/bitters anyways for the NY State Fair which has the entries due at the end of May, though if this is still a go I might brew an additional bitter towards the end of month and go for a more traditional flavor profile for this comp.

I am loving this Thames Valley II yeast so far, it's hard not to sneak samples when it tastes so good!

 

[KingBrianI]

Is this still going on? I'll be brewing a bunch of stuff/bitters anyways for the NY State Fair which has the entries due at the end of May, though if this is still a go I might brew an additional bitter towards the end of month and go for a more traditional flavor profile for this comp.

I am loving this Thames Valley II yeast so far, it's hard not to sneak samples when it tastes so good!

Yep, still planned. I've been crazy busy with work lately and haven't had a chance to get together with the other judge to discuss the exact date.... which means I haven't started the official thread yet, but it is definitely still on. I'll try to tie everything up and get the new thread posted by this weekend.

 

[KingBrianI]

June 11 is the day. Just confirmed it with my buddy. When I get some time tonight I'll go ahead and create a new thread with all the details.

 

[KingBrianI]

Here's the thread for the competition, good luck!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f20/official-thread-2011-british-bitter-brew-off-242894/

 

[GuldTuborg]

I am loving this Thames Valley II yeast so far, it's hard not to sneak samples when it tastes so good!

Awesome - I just picked up a pack of this a couple days ago. What kind of flavors are you getting? Any tips for someone new to using this strain?

Here's the thread for the competition, good luck!

Looking forward to it. With a little luck, I just may have something ready for the comp.

 

[bierhaus15]

Awesome - I just picked up a pack of this a couple days ago. What kind of flavors are you getting? Any tips for someone new to using this strain?

Believe it or not, this is my first time using it. I'm following the same 64-68F, d-rest, crash cool fermentation schedule that I normally do. So far the flavors this yeast are good - lots of mellow stone fruit and rich malt with a hint of diacetyl, which I like in my bitters. I crash cooled it the other day and it's about as clear as wy1968. So far it seems it favors the malt more so than the hop, though it still is a bit early to tell. Reminds me of a mellow 1968, or a drier, maltier 1318.

I just picked up some wlp022 essex yeast the other day. Never used that one, but it looks promising. Anyone use it before?

 

[gerbache]

After lurking on this thread for a while now, I finally got a chance to brew up another bitter today. My first couple of attempts have been much like everyone else described -- good, but just not quite the same as what I've had from England. I'm hoping that some tweaks from this thread here and there will help push things closer.

This was the first time I've done a mash as thick as 1 qt/lb and wow, no kidding about it being thick! I usually go with more like 1.5 qts/lb, and when I got to the last bit of grain, I started to wonder if it was actually going to fit. The only big downside I found is that with such a small amount of water, my cooler had a lot of space up at the top, and it seemed like my temperature dropped quite a bit through the mash. Is anyone else doing 5 gallon bitters using a 10 gallon mash tun? Any troubles with holding the temperatures for you?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Most of my English "session" beers (and I guess I only brew 2-3 regularly) use between 7-10lbs of grain, mashed in a 10 gallon cooler. I've never had any problems holding mash temps. I'll usually see a 1F drop over 90 minutes, no more. It's just a standard orange rubbermaid cooler.

 

[jmo88]

Well earlier in this thread I complained about 1318's sluggishness. The beer, a brown porter, turned out fantastic and earned a medal in porters for a pretty large competition. I will be using this yeast again and am happy with the final product.

Also, I used 1028 for the first time in a mild and will be using this fermentation regimen. On the gravity sample at only a few days old I can't believe how tart this is. I expect it to round out but I've never had an young sample this tart. I'll let y'all know how it turns out.

 

[bierhaus15]

Well earlier in this thread I complained about 1318's sluggishness. The beer, a brown porter, turned out fantastic and earned a medal in porters for a pretty large competition. I will be using this yeast again and am happy with the final product.

Also, I used 1028 for the first time in a mild and will be using this fermentation regimen. On the gravity sample at only a few days old I can't believe how tart this is. I expect it to round out but I've never had an young sample this tart. I'll let y'all know how it turns out.

Glad to hear about 1318! It is one of the best English yeast strains available, but rarely gets any love. Also, I'd be keen to hear about your experience with 1028 once your brew is ready. I brewed with it a few times and hated it. Tasted very bready and minerally (like muddy water) for my tastes.

 

[jmo88]

Glad to hear about 1318! It is one of the best English yeast strains available, but rarely gets any love. Also, I'd be keen to hear about your experience with 1028 once your brew is ready. I brewed with it a few times and hated it. Tasted very bready and minerally (like muddy water) for my tastes.

Yes, 1318 going to be my go to for darker English beers. I believe wyeast describes it as soft, I'm not sure exactly what that means but it somehow seems a very accurate descriptor. I don't think I'm willing to abandon 1275 for bitters though. Between these two yeasts, I'm feel comfortable making all styles of English session beers.

I've read that 1028 can be minerally and throws a lot of odd flavors early in the conditioning period but I've heard some good things about it once you give it some time. I will certainly try 1318 on the mild recipe to see how they compare. I'm going to tap the 1028 mild next weekend if the sample has mellowed out.

 

[fiat84]

I've read that 1028 can be minerally and throws a lot of odd flavors early in the conditioning period but I've heard some good things about it once you give it some time. I will certainly try 1318 on the mild recipe to see how they compare. I'm going to tap the 1028 mild next weekend if the sample has mellowed out.

FYI, brew Wyeast 1028 at 68F and did not think I would like the mineral water profile but turns out it is my favorite yeast after aging two months. One of my brew pub frequenting buddies tried my 1028 brew and loved it so much he thought it was better than any brew pub beer he ever had. So yes agree 1028 is a love it or hate it flavor profile. The mineral water flavor mellowed enough after two months to become great and then keeps dissipating at the same rate with aging so drink it quick when you like it. Stashed some bottles away and at one year there is no longer any mineral profile.

 

[jmo88]

FYI, brew Wyeast 1028 at 68F and did not think I would like the mineral water profile but turns out it is my favorite yeast after aging two months. One of my brew pub frequenting buddies tried my 1028 brew and loved it so much he thought it was better than any brew pub beer he ever had. So yes agree 1028 is a love it or hate it flavor profile. The mineral water flavor mellowed enough after two months to become great and then keeps dissipating at the same rate with aging so drink it quick when you like it. Stashed some bottles away and at one year there is no longer any mineral profile.

I hope to not give it that much time, it's a mild. Was hoping to tap it between 2-3 weeks.

 

[bierhaus15]

WLP Essex Ale update: Took a gravity reading today from an ordinary bitter I brewed with this yeast about two weeks ago. Got around 75% attenuation and pretty decent flocculation, though not nearly as good as some of the other strains. Flavor is good, lots of bready malt and some tart, fruity esters. Hop bitterness and aroma comes through quite nicely, so far this strain reminds me of a cross between wy1275 and 1098. I'll probably dry hop this one for a week with EKG as it seems to let the hops come through nicely.

Kicked the keg of special bitter I made with Thames Valley II the other day and set a new record for kicking a keg at my place - 5 people, 4 hours. Was only in the keg for a week! This yeast is amazing...

 

[blackstrat5]

..Does anyone else experience odd flavors after bottle conditioning with WLP002?
I had a Brown Ale that was just awesome (great hop aroma and a full malt backbone), at bottling it was as described. Three weeks later I've got this bitterness taste and all the hop aroma has left and malt profile is hidden by this new flavor.

 

[bierhaus15]

..Does anyone else experience odd flavors after bottle conditioning with WLP002? I had a Brown Ale that was just awesome (great hop aroma and a full malt backbone), at bottling it was as described. Three weeks later I've got this bitterness taste and all the hop aroma has left and malt profile is hidden by this new flavor.

Yup. WLP002/wy1968 is notorious for causing off flavors in the bottle. I have yet to find out what exactly the cause is, but I think it has to do with some form of minor infection or the yeast reactivating with the priming sugar. I stopped bottling with this yeast altogether due to repeated problems - though not all batches had this happen to it. Also, I have had some success flocculating most the yeast out of suspension with repeated cold crashing and then bottling with some us-05 dry yeast. I only keg batches with this yeast and bottle from the keg.

Funny enough, a few members of my beer club brought up this problem at our last meeting. They were complaining how their bottles were going from fine-tasty beer to thin, over carbonated and off tasting within a few weeks. Immediately, I asked what yeast they had used... and sure enough both were 1968. In my experience, once the off flavor appears in the bottle, it does not get any better with time. Sorry!

 

[GuldTuborg]

Incidentally, I had the same thing happen with a brown ale last summer. It was the only time I've used 1968 in recent memory. I was trying out a new recipe, and at the time I thought it must have been poorly designed, or I just did something wrong. In retrospect, I bet it was this phenomenon, as the gravity samples did taste far more promising than the end product. I may have to try that recipe again sometime.

 

[smizak]

Yup. WLP002/wy1968 is notorious for causing off flavors in the bottle. I have yet to find out what exactly the cause is, but I think it has to do with some form of minor infection or the yeast reactivating with the priming sugar. I stopped bottling with this yeast altogether due to repeated problems - though not all batches had this happen to it. Also, I have had some success flocculating most the yeast out of suspension with repeated cold crashing and then bottling with some us-05 dry yeast. I only keg batches with this yeast and bottle from the keg.

Funny enough, a few members of my beer club brought up this problem at our last meeting. They were complaining how their bottles were going from fine-tasty beer to thin, over carbonated and off tasting within a few weeks. Immediately, I asked what yeast they had used... and sure enough both were 1968. In my experience, once the off flavor appears in the bottle, it does not get any better with time. Sorry!

My ESB has gone this route as well. It actually foams a little in the bottle when you crack the cap. I only added sugar to prime for 2.0 volumes. It's also been refrigerated the entire time as well, as soon as it carbed, which freaks me out.

 

[jmo88]

..Does anyone else experience odd flavors after bottle conditioning with WLP002?
I had a Brown Ale that was just awesome (great hop aroma and a full malt backbone), at bottling it was as described. Three weeks later I've got this bitterness taste and all the hop aroma has left and malt profile is hidden by this new flavor.

I'd actually like to know if anyone successfully bottle conditioned a beer with this yeast and have had it hold up for a month or more. I've had zero luck bottle conditioning with this yeast and was hit or miss with English yeasts in general. The gravity drops below the FG at bottling just after a couple weeks and gets worse. I can't imagine the yeasts turning super hungry and eating through what they previously were unable to. All signs point to an infection. But why doesn't other beers with American yeast or some other strain have this problem? My take on this has always been that bottling is hard to do without introducing some foreign microbe or wild yeast. Isn't it possible that 1968 has a hard time keeping these infections at bay during bottling, more so than other stains. Maybe the growth phase of primary fermentation is enough to stave off any infection but the lack of growth, at least when this yeast is concerned, during bottle conditioning is unable to prevent wild yeasts taking hold? I think it's more simple than a yeast reaction to simple sugar. These sugars are used all the time in the primary ferment of bitters.

Just sharing my thoughts and guesses about this. I certainly have nothing scientific to back up this.

Maybe we should just ask one of the labs?