British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[GrainCounter]

Thank you, KingBrianI, for starting this thread, and thank you, bierhaus15, for all the great advice.

I took advice from this thread and made a special bitter that turned out great.

I used Baird's MO malt as a base (88%) with some C-120 (6%) and some aromatic malt (6%). Water was adjusted with Burton water salts, due to it being fairly soft. I used an ounce of Brewer's Gold for bittering and an ounce of EKG for aroma.

I used Wyeast 1318 London Ale III in the manner described by bierhaus15 on the first page of the thread. Attenuation was good, with a FG of 1.010. Most of my ale fermentations are at FG in 4 days, but 1318 took 8, which was surprising.

The finished beer is really quite nice. The malt and bitterness are well balanced. There is a pleasant mineral-like quality to the beer along with some slight fruitiness that make it taste more like an authentic bitter than previous attempts.

I look forward to trying Wyeast 1968 in my next attempt.

 

[bierhaus15]

My next bitter will be 80% Maris Otter, 10% Amber Malt, 10% British Dark Crystal. That's the Fullers 1845 malt bill, which I'll scale down to a special bitter.

Don't want to deter you, but just be careful of using too much amber malt in low gravity bitters. At 5% it is very noticeable in a light beer. I find it gives a burnt toast crust, cocao powder flavor more so than just biscuit. I typically use no more than 4% amber malt in my bitters, including ESB.

 

[rjwhite41]

Tonight I cracked a bottle of Flying Fish Brewing Co ESB, and my beer was pretty close... I'm going to try a bottle of Fuller's ESB next weekend, to see how mine compares.

I don't generally compare my "traditional" beers to American craft breweries. I find that a lot of them tend to Americanize every style that they brew. Flying Fish Brewing Co. says on their website "This ESB is a classic British extra special bitter made fresh with an American slant." Fuller's should be a much better comparison if you are trying to make a traditional ESB. Now, if you want to Americanize a style than more power to you. It certainly doesn't make it bad beer.

 

[bigljd]

I don't generally compare my "traditional" beers to American craft breweries. I find that a lot of them tend to Americanize every style that they brew. Flying Fish Brewing Co. says on their website "This ESB is a classic British extra special bitter made fresh with an American slant." Fuller's should be a much better comparison if you are trying to make a traditional ESB. Now, if you want to Americanize a style than more power to you. It certainly doesn't make it bad beer.

Too true. That's why I saved the Fullers test for next weekend, when my beer has aged a bit more and is ready for prime time. I also have a bottle of 14'er ESB from Avery Brewing in CO. We'll see what their take is on the ESB style. The true test will be against the Fullers though.

Does anyone know how well WLP002 stores in the refrigerator after being washed? I've got 2 pint mason jars with washed yeast that I kept from this last batch. WLP001 seems to have a good fridge life IME, but others I've washed in the past haven't fared to well after a month.

 

[motobrewer]

I used Wyeast 1318 London Ale III in the manner described by bierhaus15 on the first page of the thread. Attenuation was good, with a FG of 1.010. Most of my ale fermentations are at FG in 4 days, but 1318 took 8, which was surprising.

could you explain a bit more? bierhaus says "pitch low, then rise to 68F for two weeks"....how low, and how long before raising?

thanks. i think i'm gonna rebrew orfy's mild using 1318.

 

[bierhaus15]

could you explain a bit more? bierhaus says "pitch low, then rise to 68F for two weeks"....how low, and how long before raising?

thanks. i think i'm gonna rebrew orfy's mild using 1318.

I pitch around 64F and slowly let the temp rise up to 68-70F over the course of a few days. Usually by day 4-5 it'll be at 68F and I'll leave it there for at least a week to ensure I get good attenuation. This yeast can be a really fast fermenter and then suddenly slow down for the last 10 gravity points. I'll keg it by day 12-14 after a day or two of cold crashing to flocc the yeast out. 1318 makes an excellent mild!

 

[winvarin]

Too true. That's why I saved the Fullers test for next weekend, when my beer has aged a bit more and is ready for prime time. I also have a bottle of 14'er ESB from Avery Brewing in CO. We'll see what their take is on the ESB style. The true test will be against the Fullers though.

Does anyone know how well WLP002 stores in the refrigerator after being washed? I've got 2 pint mason jars with washed yeast that I kept from this last batch. WLP001 seems to have a good fridge life IME, but others I've washed in the past haven't fared to well after a month.

I am by no means an expert on British style ales, but to me, the 14'er is very Americanized. It screams northwest hop varieties. That being said, it's an outstanding beer. I enjoy it.

 

[Kirbster]

Ok sat down and read the entire thread and I am amazed on what I learned and excited about brewing an esb here soon. Pretty much locked in what I am going to do, however between the last 28 pages or so I lost track of what was said on open fermentation. Does having an open fermentation help increase these malt flavors/esters or is it minuscule when compared to a fermentation temperature controlled regime. Please excuse me if it has been stated definitively.

Also, while reading through the thread I was excited to test these hypotheses in other styles using other strains of yeast such as hefeweizen yeasts. Makes me lament the month long primary used for my rye esb which I am kegging tomorrow though.

 

[bierhaus15]

I think open fermenting does add another dimension for certain yeast strains, though I haven't been doing it much of late as I've been using mostly carboys. Temperature control will have a greater impact on the beer than open fermenting alone.

A month long fermentation won't kill a beer, though you won't get the same esters and malt profile as one fermented for a shorter time. Probably is a good thing in a rye ESB where you want a cleaner beer for the rye flavors to show up.

 

[motobrewer]

I pitch around 64F and slowly let the temp rise up to 68-70F over the course of a few days. Usually by day 4-5 it'll be at 68F and I'll leave it there for at least a week to ensure I get good attenuation. This yeast can be a really fast fermenter and then suddenly slow down for the last 10 gravity points. I'll keg it by day 12-14 after a day or two of cold crashing to flocc the yeast out. 1318 makes an excellent mild!

ah, excellent info, thanks! i've never used it before so I'm excited to try it.

 

[AnOldUR]

I pitch around 64F and slowly let the temp rise up to 68-70F over the course of a few days.

Settled on brewing a 1.040 Ordinary Bitter with the Wy1318 yesterday. Pitched at 63-64 degrees That temperature is holding in my 58-60 degree basement with the carboys layered it sweat shirts. Is this aggressive yeast? How much heat does it produce when it's in full swing? The plan is to move them to a warmer location once the temperature starts to drop, but I’m wondering if this yeast will get the wort up to 68 degree on its own before then.

 

[bierhaus15]

Pitched at 63-64 degrees That temperature is holding in my 58-60 degree basement with the carboys layered it sweat shirts. Is this aggressive yeast? How much heat does it produce when it's in full swing? The plan is to move them to a warmer location once the temperature starts to drop, but I’m wondering if this yeast will get the wort up to 68 degree on its own before then.

I wouldn't call it a terribly aggressive fermenter, especially at low temps where it becomes pretty sluggish. You might be better off raising the temp closer to 68F, instead of letting it ride at low temps for the bulk of fermentation. Though I've never fermented this one that cool - it might be fine, though I suspect it may under attenuate. This yeast is a fast flocculator. I always try to have the beer at 68F by day 4 if possible. Aside, my fermentation chamber is pretty ghetto and unreliable of late, so I've started using a swamp cooler with an aquarium heater to control the temp. Works great.

 

[motobrewer]

i'll probably have to add heat, i ferment in my 59F basement

 

[14thstreet]

My next bitter will be 80% Maris Otter, 10% Amber Malt, 10% British Dark Crystal. That's the Fullers 1845 malt bill, which I'll scale down to a special bitter.

Don't want to deter you, but just be careful of using too much amber malt in low gravity bitters. At 5% it is very noticeable in a light beer. I find it gives a burnt toast crust, cocao powder flavor more so than just biscuit. I typically use no more than 4% amber malt in my bitters, including ESB.

That grain bill to 1.048, about 2oz chocolate malt per 5 gallons and medium crystal, was my go at a Samuel Smith Nut Brown, with the White Labs Yorkshire Square Ale strain. I used Crisp Amber malt, so maybe different maltsters have different intensities.

 

[elkdog]

Don't want to deter you, but just be careful of using too much amber malt in low gravity bitters. At 5% it is very noticeable in a light beer. I find it gives a burnt toast crust, cocao powder flavor more so than just biscuit. I typically use no more than 4% amber malt in my bitters, including ESB.

That grain bill to 1.048, about 2oz chocolate malt per 5 gallons and medium crystal, was my go at a Samuel Smith Nut Brown, with the White Labs Yorkshire Square Ale strain. I used Crisp Amber malt, so maybe different maltsters have different intensities.

Interesting. I'll proceed with caution, as I'm not looking for as much of the toasty cacao as a nut brown has (even taking the 2% chocolate into account). Probably start at 4-5% for the first one, knowing I can increase later. Thanks!

 

[motobrewer]

well, i definitely plan to rebrew orfy's mild with 1318 on the 27th. i'm gonna bottle a few of the notty to see how it compares.

 

[GuldTuborg]

well, i definitely plan to rebrew orfy's mild with 1318 on the 27th. i'm gonna bottle a few of the notty to see how it compares.

Excellent. Keep us posted on how it turns out, and how it compares to the "original."

 

[jmo88]

Kegged my brown porter with 1318 and sampled it last night. I wasn't able to follow some of the fermentation ideas I wanted for it due to it being very sluggish near the end of fermentation. It sat at 70F for almost a week to slowly let it finish to 1.014. Though this probably cleaned up some of what I was looking for in terms of yeast profile, a great deal of character remains. I've made this before with a few different yeasts and am getting a plum ester that I like that I was only able to get out of wlp037. I'm very pleased with it despite not liking the slow fermentation. It's certainly more "English" than my wyeast1968 version that followed a similar cleanup fermentation process.

Overall, I like the result of 1318 quite a bit. But, I don't like how the sluggishness impedes my ability to control it. On the other hand, if you don't have to control the temps so much, it seems like a great choice for easily getting a great English character.

 

[bierhaus15]

Overall, I like the result of 1318 quite a bit. But, I don't like how the sluggishness impedes my ability to control it. On the other hand, if you don't have to control the temps so much, it seems like a great choice for easily getting a great English character.

I wonder if you had an old pack of yeast or something. I wouldn't say this yeast is sluggish, though it's not as explosive as s-04 or notty. Do you know how long it took the yeast to reach high krausen? What did the fermentation look like?

This is a brown ale I pitched with 1318 on Monday afteroon and it reached high krausen by weds night. Today the yeast has already flocculated out, and it has reached FG. Took 3 days.

 

[jmo88]

I wonder if you had an old pack of yeast or something. I wouldn't say this yeast is sluggish, though it's not as explosive as s-04 or notty. Do you know how long it took the yeast to reach high krausen? What did the fermentation look like?

This is a brown ale I pitched with 1318 on Monday afteroon and it reached high krausen by weds night. Today the yeast has already flocculated out, and it has reached FG. Took 3 days.

There really is no problem, because I really like the beer. It hit high krausen after about two or three days and started to fall after about five days. This fall was SLOW though and dropping only about a point every other day. Even after I racked, a month later, there was still some good plops of thick yeast floating on top. It was a persistent top crop yeast for sure. The yeast was packaged just a few days before I pitched it in the starter. Again, no problems really, I'll probably give it another try with a bitter and see if it performs the same way for me. It is tasty.

 

[sjjn]

So with some of these later brewed beers in the thread there has been less talk of "rousing the yeast". Has this been because of the low-high-low fermentation schedule? I'm gonna try my hand at at this recipe I purchased from Brewmasters Warehouse:

Munton's Extra Light LME unhopped 3.3 lbs, 0 oz
Simpsons Dark Crystal 0 lbs, 8 oz
Briess Victory 0 lbs, 4 oz
Briess Pale Ale Malt 1 lbs, 0 oz
Kent Goldings, UK Pellets 1 oz @ 60 mins
Kent Goldings, UK Pellets 1 oz @ 15 mins
Kent Goldings, UK Pellets .5 oz @ 5 mins
Wyeast Labs London ESB Ale 1 ea

I can hit the 64-68-64 in my apt but no way to crash cool. Any suggestions on ferm schedule in terms of temps/days until bottling?

Also I plan to make a 1L starter but just want to ask f it is totally necessary with such a low gravity beer.

And finally...I'm going to http://www.getrealny.com/brewers/ on Sunday. Anyone see any cask ales that I absolutely can't miss from this list?

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[winvarin]

So with some of these later brewed beers in the thread there has been less talk of "rousing the yeast". Has this been because of the low-high-low fermentation schedule? I'm gonna try my hand at at this recipe I purchased from Brewmasters Warehouse:

Munton's Extra Light LME unhopped 3.3 lbs, 0 oz
Simpsons Dark Crystal 0 lbs, 8 oz
Briess Victory 0 lbs, 4 oz
Briess Pale Ale Malt 1 lbs, 0 oz
Kent Goldings, UK Pellets 1 oz @ 60 mins
Kent Goldings, UK Pellets 1 oz @ 15 mins
Kent Goldings, UK Pellets .5 oz @ 5 mins
Wyeast Labs London ESB Ale 1 ea

I can hit the 64-68-64 in my apt but no way to crash cool. Any suggestions on ferm schedule in terms of temps/days until bottling?

Also I plan to make a 1L starter but just want to ask f it is totally necessary with such a low gravity beer.

And finally...I'm going to http://www.getrealny.com/brewers/ on Sunday. Anyone see any cask ales that I absolutely can't miss from this list?

Thanks for any suggestions.

I used WLP002, which I believe is the White Labs version of this yeast. I had no temp control available for this batch and used about a 1200ml starter. We had a cold snap during the primary phase. I pitched at around 63 and the beer (standard bitter) pegged at just north of 67F during high krausen.

I've tasted a couple of samples since active ferment subsided and I have to say I am happy with the results. I am not as big a fan of the heavy ester production that some on this thread are.

But at day 5 or 6, this beer exhibited a lot of what those on this thread are looking for. Strong malt profile, fairly hoppy, and a ton of fruity esters. A lot of the people on this thread would have crash cooled on day 6 or 7, based on what I tasted, and what I have been reading on this thread.

I have chosen to give mine an extra week on the yeast to clean up a bit (although I am not putting this one through my usual 3-4 week primary regimine). But that's entirely based on my personal preference.

My recommendation would be to ensure you have a way to regularly draw samples once primary ferment is over. While the beer is not where I want it yet, it has been enlightening to taste it daily and see how the flavor and aroma are progressing.

As for cold crashing, there are some pretty ingenious non-refrigerated lager setups in the March/April issue of BYO. Maybe you could try something like that.

Either that or move all your fresh fruits and veggies out of the fridge for a few days

 

[AnOldUR]

This is a brown ale I pitched with 1318 on Monday afteroon and it reached high krausen by weds night. . .

Looks very similar to what mine did. I fermented in two 5 gallon carboys with 4+ gallons in each. Even with less than 1 gallon of headspace there was no need for a blow-off. Five day in and it's dropped about 50% of the krausen.

This is a nice change from the Wy1469 that I've been experimenting with. Lots of blow-off and neverending krausen.

 

[bigljd]

I attempted my first English style brew (ESB) last weekend, and read thru this entire thread before my brew. Lots of good stuff in here! The timing was perfect, since this is also my first brew using a new fermentation fridge I snagged off from Craigs list. I can control ferm temps now
The 5 gal recipe uses Crisp pale malt as the base, and has a little Aromatic, Crystal 120 and a dash of Special roast.
IBUs are around 28 using 1.25oz EKG bittering and .75 oz EKG flavoring.
OG came in at 1.050, just a tad above style.
The yeast I'm using is WLP002 - man is that stuff chunky in the vial. It broke up nicely in my starter with the stir plate spinning it. I pitched at 66, hit it with some oxygen, threw it in the ferm fridge and brought it down to 64. When it started fermenting about 6 - 8 hours later I set the temp controller to 68, and when I got up this morning the better bottle was fermenting so hard I was worried that if my blowoff tube got plugged up the resulting explosion might take out half the neighborhood. Don't think this fermentation will take long.
I plan to drop it back down to 64 once the bubbling slows to a crawl and start tasting it - once it's where I like I'll crash it down to 40 for a few days and keg it.
I'll update in a few days - thanks for the great informative thread!

A final update on my Special bitter - after a week in primary and a week in the keg, I'm currently doing a taste comparison against Fullers ESB. I wasn't really trying to clone Fullers, but I thought it'd be a good style comparison.
I think I should have given my yeast a couple more days to clean up (crashed after only 5 days), because it's a little more buttery than Fullers. I think there's still a bit too much diacytel. I think Fullers is a bit hoppier than mine too, slightly more bitter and has a better hop flavor. It's also a bit richer and has more of a caramel flavor. I think I need to boil my wort a bit harder to help caramelize the wort a bit more, and maybe extract a bit more bitterness. The next batch I'll crank up the flame more, as I tend to be pretty wimpy when it comes to the boil.
Overall though, my bitter came out pretty well for the first attempt of an English beer. The color and overall flavor is pretty good. I've got an ESB recipe shipping from Brewmasters Warehouse that I will brew soon, and it's got a bit more medium crystal in it. I'll push the boil a bit harder, bump up the IBUs up a tad and give the yeast a couple more days to clean up and I think I'll be rockin.
Thanks again for the great thread!

 

[Scroto]

First off I want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread; some very informative stuff.


So I brewed an ESB with the WY1968 on 3/1 and followed the temperature protocol and cold crashed on day 7, I tasted it before I crashed it and thought it had an appropriate level of diacetyl, so there it stayed until I got an empty keg for it (3/15).

Now when I went to keg it I gave it another taste but it seemed to have a little more diacetyl then I remembered when I crashed it, just a tad too much for my liking. I could have just pulled it out and let it clean up for a day or so @ room temp but due to poor planning and need for the bucket it was in (brewed up a batch on 3/15) I had to keg it.

So here I am now and I'm wondering if there is a way to clean up a little bit more of the diacetyl. I've taken the keg out of the fridge and its been @ room temp for a couple days now. Do you think the minuscule amount of yeast that made it into the keg would have cleaned up some more by now or could I add say a gram of S-04 let it go for a day @ room temp and taste for when it's at a decent level then throw it back on tap?

 

[KingBrianI]

First off I want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread; some very informative stuff.


So I brewed an ESB with the WY1968 on 3/1 and followed the temperature protocol and cold crashed on day 7, I tasted it before I crashed it and thought it had an appropriate level of diacetyl, so there it stayed until I got an empty keg for it (3/15).

Now when I went to keg it I gave it another taste but it seemed to have a little more diacetyl then I remembered when I crashed it, just a tad too much for my liking. I could have just pulled it out and let it clean up for a day or so @ room temp but due to poor planning and need for the bucket it was in (brewed up a batch on 3/15) I had to keg it.

So here I am now and I'm wondering if there is a way to clean up a little bit more of the diacetyl. I've taken the keg out of the fridge and its been @ room temp for a couple days now. Do you think the minuscule amount of yeast that made it into the keg would have cleaned up some more by now or could I add say a gram of S-04 let it go for a day @ room temp and taste for when it's at a decent level then throw it back on tap?

Letting it sit at room temp will definitely clean up some diacetyl. No need to add s-04 or anything crazy like that. Just give it a taste every few days and when it gets where you like it, throw it back in the kegerator.

 

[bierhaus15]

So with some of these later brewed beers in the thread there has been less talk of "rousing the yeast". Has this been because of the low-high-low fermentation schedule?

http://www.getrealny.com/brewers/

Yeast rousing isn't terribly popular these days as people think it is going to "oxidize" their beer (oooh, scary bogeyman!!) though it's not really that necessary 99% of the time. I occasionally use it, though mostly with ringwood and wy1968 if it flocculates to quick. Doesn't happen that often, but it works when you need to get that extra 5% attenuation.

Looks like some good beer there! Haven't tried all of them but I have had the Thornbridge Jaipur and Kipling and they are excellent! Hope that cask makes the trip over the pond in good shape!

 

[winvarin]

I think I need to boil my wort a bit harder to help caramelize the wort a bit more, and maybe extract a bit more bitterness. The next batch I'll crank up the flame more, as I tend to be pretty wimpy when it comes to the boil.

I wonder if just a touch of melanoidin malt would help with this? (not exactly for the style purist, but it might help with the richer flavor)

As another alternative, you could sub a bit of your base malt with an appropriate amount of amber DME and toss it in at the beginning of the boil. That should carmelize a bit.

Or for those who do add sugar to their British beers, perhaps tossing it in at the beginning of the boil?

 

[bigljd]

I wonder if just a touch of melanoidin malt would help with this? (not exactly for the style purist, but it might help with the richer flavor)

As another alternative, you could sub a bit of your base malt with an appropriate amount of amber DME and toss it in at the beginning of the boil. That should carmelize a bit.

Or for those who do add sugar to their British beers, perhaps tossing it in at the beginning of the boil?

I brewed the new ESB today, as FedEx delivered my recipe yesterday. I started with more water than usual to account for a more vigorous boil, and did a 70 minute fully rolling boil. So, I'll know in a couple weeks if it makes a difference or not. I also dropped my hops straight into the boil instead of a nylon hop bag to see if I could get more hop bitterness/flavors. Still using WLP002 (washed from the last batch), but the recipe has 1 lb of Simpson medium crystal malt instead of .5 lb C120. That should help add some caramel sweetness too.
I'll let you know in a couple weeks.
I'd thought about using some DME to add carmel flavor to the beer, but would like to learn to do it with AG. If others have experience with melanoidin malt or adding sugars to bitters, what flavors would those give? I really like English style brews and would like to learn more.
EDIT: Googled melanoidin malt and it sound like kind of the same as aromatic malt, which I have .5 lb of in the grain bill. So I guess I know what that tastes like :>). Still curious about the sugars though.

 

[bierhaus15]

Another update: Kegged a special bitter today, though this was made with my homemade No. 1 brewers invert syrup. Recipe was very simple, TF MO, crystal, and 11% invert with all EKG. Fermented with wy1968 exactly to the fullers fermentation schedule. Starting gravity was 1048 and final gravity is 1.008, a bit lower than I expected.

Taste is very nice so far. Rich biscuity malt with typical 1968 stone fruit esters and a lovely sweet, fruity flavor from the invert. I tasted the beer next to some invert I had left over and the invert character in the beer is spot on. I'm glad I didn't use my no 2 invert in this batch as I think it would have thrown the balance off. Compared to the commerical invert I have used in the past (including Lyles Golden Syrup) the homemade stuff gives much more character to the beer, or so it seems. Hopefully it carbs up well.