Brewzilla Gen4 Discussion/Tips Talk

[Neldog0]

First brew the other day in the Brewzilla 35l Gen4 and I have a question about the following mash that went too high.

Bear in mind that I had not read this forum and was kind of flying blind with default settings.
View attachment 846745

• 240V Brewzilla
• Bluetooth temp probe centred in mash
• Temp diff: 8 degrees C
• Hysteresis: 2 degrees C
• power 100%
• pump 100%
• Strike temp 71C
• Mash target temp 66C

You can see that the blue BT probe shows an overshoot as expected.
The problem is that the mash gets to 71C based on the BT probe and takes 50 minutes to get back to 66. Pretty much stuffed at that point.

Surely the temp would drop faster than that. I recall the elements coming on, but the RAPT portal does not record that valuable data which would be so helpful in troubleshooting.

Any ideas?

For my next mash I'll set it up based on advice in this forum. Temp diff 0.3, hysteresis 1-2C, power 75%

I had many problems with the last firmware update. I had to go into my controls & reset to my original settings. Until I did this I was unable to get a stable temp setting form my mash with the Bluetooth probe. I lost that brew session on my 35l unit. Hard lesson to learn.

 

[mashdar]

Yep. My understanding is that with the by probe pod is not needed.

I think the problem lies in the combination of settings for hysteresis, differential and heater power.

Your plot looks a lot like someone else's that kept the heat on and pump off at the begining of mash, while using the BT temp probe.

If you do that, the bottom will pretty much always heat to your temp difference max. Either turn off heat while pump is off (my recommendation), set heat 8C lower while pump is off, or tighten up the max difference.

 

[Mucklemann]

I had many problems with the last firmware update. I had to go into my controls & reset to my original settings. Until I did this I was unable to get a stable temp setting form my mash with the Bluetooth probe. I lost that brew session on my 35l unit. Hard lesson to learn.

What are your settings? It would be good to have a starting point.

 

[Mucklemann]

Your plot looks a lot like someone else's that kept the heat on and pump off at the begining of mash, while using the BT temp probe.

Thanks. I had the pump on from the beginning with the stop cock at about 45 degrees.

Maybe the flow was too low?

In future I'll use the pump power setting for reproducability.

 

[mashdar]

Thanks. I had the pump on from the beginning with the stop cock at about 45 degrees.

Maybe the flow was too low?

In future I'll use the pump power setting for reproducibility

I think throttling with ball valve is better. The % control turns the pump on and off, and can suck grain back through recirc tubing.

I guess the lag for hot water hitting the probe was long. Maybe dropping the allowable temp difference is a strategy. Also, hitting mash temp better from start might help, but might see the same problem later.

What % heat are you using? With the neoprene jacket, I'd recommend trying 25-35%

 

[Mucklemann]

What % heat are you using? With the neoprene jacket, I'd recommend trying 25-35%

Thanks.
I have the neoprene jacket on as well as the Heat Exchanger Disc and the BT probe, thinking this would be an ideal setup.

I'd like to stick with the percentage power as, being an ex biochemist, I like the idea of reproducability. I understand that the pump cycles 100% on/off but its the results that count.

I might start a new thread that gets people to record their Brewzilla Gen4 mash parameters so that we can all learn what might be optimal:

• Neoprene jacket yes/no
• HED yes/no
• BT probe yes/no
• Temperature hysteresis setting
• Temperature differential setting
• Pump power setting
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate.
• Heat power setting
• PID on/off
• Ambient room temperature

What do people think?

 

[mashdar]

I'd like to stick with the percentage power as, being an ex biochemist, I like the idea of reproducability. I understand that the pump cycles 100% on/off but its the results that count.

OK - The consensus for using pump duty cycle is to air gap the recirc line. If you don't, pump clogs are higher risk.

 

[Mucklemann]

I had many problems with the last firmware update. I had to go into my controls & reset to my original settings. Until I did this I was unable to get a stable temp setting form my mash with the Bluetooth probe. I lost that brew session on my 35l unit. Hard lesson to learn.

@Neldog0 what are your settings? It's hard to get a full view of different peoples set up as per my above post.
Cheers.

 

[Neldog0]

@Neldog0 what are your settings? It's hard to get a full view of different peoples set up as per my above post.
Cheers.

I’m brewing tomorrow & I’ll let you know.

 

[rtstrider]

Yep. My understanding is that with the by probe pod is not needed.

I think the problem lies in the combination of settings for hysteresis, differential and heater power.

I have had the same issue consistently also. What I do is turn off the heater when doughing in, give the grains a good stir, turn on recirculation to help even out temps, and set the heater to no more than 30% power during mashing. This keeps the mash within 3F-4F of the desired temps. This is for the 9.25 Gallon 110v unit.

 

[Neldog0]

Thanks.
I have the neoprene jacket on as well as the Heat Exchanger Disc and the BT probe, thinking this would be an ideal setup.

I'd like to stick with the percentage power as, being an ex biochemist, I like the idea of reproducability. I understand that the pump cycles 100% on/off but its the results that count.

I might start a new thread that gets people to record their Brewzilla Gen4 mash parameters so that we can all learn what might be optimal:

• Neoprene jacket yes/no
• HED yes/no
• BT probe yes/no
• Temperature hysteresis setting
• Temperature differential setting
• Pump power setting
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate.
• Heat power setting
• PID on/off
• Ambient room temperature

What do people think?

• Neoprene jacket yes/no. Yes
• HED yes/no. Yes
• BT probe yes/no. Yes
• Temperature hysteresis setting. 1.0f
• Temperature differential setting. 1.0f
• Pump power setting 65-70 depending on variables
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate. Approximately 60%
• Heat power setting. 65-70
• PID on/off. Off
• Ambient. Currently 69f
• Allowed sensor differential. 1.0f

Calibration:
Lower; 145f
Upper; 212f
Remember, we are trying to achieve the best repeatability. I used to sell the sensor used , & the tighter you get your temp range, the better your repeatability. 145f is as low as I go for mash so I start there. No one starts at 32f.

 

[Neldog0]

What are your settings? It would be good to have a starting point.

• Neoprene jacket yes/no. Yes
• HED yes/no. Yes
• BT probe yes/no. Yes
• Temperature hysteresis setting. 1.0f
• Temperature differential setting. 1.0f
• Pump power setting 65-70 depending on variables
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate. Approximately 60%
• Heat power setting. 65-70
• PID on/off. Off
• Ambient. Currently 69f
• Allowed sensor differential. 1.0f

Calibration:
Lower; 145f
Upper; 212f
Remember, we are trying to achieve the best repeatability. I used to sell the sensor used , & the tighter you get your temp range, the better your repeatability. 145f is as low as I go for mash so I start there. No one starts at 32f.

 

[mashdar]

Good list! Should specify heater % (edit: missed it as integer)

edit: Also I'm curious to hear how that goes. You may not be able to maintain temperature with a 1F differential.

 

[Neldog0]

Everything works great with these settings. With the Bluetooth probe, HED, an a precision analogue thermometer as as verification probe I can keep track of temperature differentials very easily and adjust temperature and recirc accordingly to fine tune the brew session Everything settles in within ten minutes & I adjust my mash time to account for any adjustments.

I am very hands on. I do not walk away from the brewing.

 

[stealthfixr]

I bought one of the first Gen4 65L's in the US and been using it for about 17 months and around 34 batches. I usually brew 5.75 gal batches, but have done 8 & 11 gallon batches as well. Tried every combination of PID settings, BT themometer and HED use that I can think of. Watched the David Heath and Kegland videos for PID settings. Researched PID settings. Nothing worked seemed to work, meaning chronic unsatisfactory mash temp stability...until trying the latest manual PID settings with the HED, no BT themo. I brew primarily for competition, so repeatability and predictability are very important. I've been brewing since 1996, so not a new brewer.

Also, The original false bottom fit so tightly that it would warp, which appeared to contribute to the mash stability problems and made the HED unusable. While I felt Kegland should have replaced the poorly fitting false bottom, an email response from Kegland directed me to MoreBeer to buy a new one. The new false bottom helped a great deal (for some reason), and drops in and comes out easily, and works well with the HED (not warped).

• Neoprene jacket YES
• HED: YES
• BT probe: No (I have it, but not successful IMO using it)
• Temperature hysteresis setting: 1F
• Temperature differential setting: N/A (not using BT)
• Pump power setting: 100%
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate: about: pointing at about about 8 o'clock
• Heat power setting: depends on batch size, but 5gal usually 35%
• PID on/off: On (using latest manual default PID settings)
• Ambient room temperature: whatever is outside--does not seem to make much difference

Other factors to consider:
- 35L or 65L (I have a 65L Gen4)
- Power (mine is 240V/30A)
- Use rice hulls? (I use 4-8oz every time)
- Wort viscosity aids like Glucabuster (I use it every time--really helps the wort to drain quickly after pulling the malt pipe)
- As the stock setup allowed far too much malt into the boil, I use a BIAB bag in the kettle every time, and pull it before the boil

On Stuck Mashes:
My stock pump is powerful enough to collapse the grist and cause a stuck mash. Using rice hulls and being very careful to not open the ball valve too much (just get a flow going--does not need to be fast) is crucial. Also, and perhaps most importantly, I have found using the HED helps prevent a stuck mash a great deal, as the 'pull' on the grist isn't just in one, small, central place. Cellar Science Glucabuster also helps, and I can tell the difference when not using it.

On the BT thermometer:
I have tried the BT thermometer, but no longer use it. As Kegland says in their video, it measures grist mash temps where it matters most. However, in use I found it to lag the bottom temperature by a wide marge in step mashing, or if the strike temp was too low. To get the middle to catch up to the bottom, anything less than about a 10+F allowed differential does not work quickly enough to matter--the mash ends before the two reach the same temps. So, I tried a 15F and 20F differential to make things more speedy, as a 10C differential is mentioned in videos. The result was a beer with (appearant) attenuation that was way too low (did not come close to FG). My theory is that the bottom of the mash was too hot--too much differential led to different mash temps within the grist. I just need predictability and repeatability, and I know what results I get using only the bottom thermo reading, so that's now all I use.

 

[Neldog0]

I bought one of the first Gen4 65L's in the US and been using it for about 17 months and around 34 batches. I usually brew 5.75 gal batches, but have done 8 & 11 gallon batches as well. Tried every combination of PID settings, BT themometer and HED use that I can think of. Watched the David Heath and Kegland videos for PID settings. Researched PID settings. Nothing worked seemed to work, meaning chronic unsatisfactory mash temp stability...until trying the latest manual PID settings with the HED, no BT themo. I brew primarily for competition, so repeatability and predictability are very important. I've been brewing since 1996, so not a new brewer.

Also, The original false bottom fit so tightly that it would warp, which appeared to contribute to the mash stability problems and made the HED unusable. While I felt Kegland should have replaced the poorly fitting false bottom, an email response from Kegland directed me to MoreBeer to buy a new one. The new false bottom helped a great deal (for some reason), and drops in and comes out easily, and works well with the HED (not warped).

• Neoprene jacket YES
• HED: YES
• BT probe: No (I have it, but not successful IMO using it)
• Temperature hysteresis setting: 1F
• Temperature differential setting: N/A (not using BT)
• Pump power setting: 100%
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate: about: pointing at about about 8 o'clock
• Heat power setting: depends on batch size, but 5gal usually 35%
• PID on/off: On (using latest manual default PID settings)
• Ambient room temperature: whatever is outside--does not seem to make much difference

Other factors to consider:
- 35L or 65L (I have a 65L Gen4)
- Power (mine is 240V/30A)
- Use rice hulls? (I use 4-8oz every time)
- Wort viscosity aids like Glucabuster (I use it every time--really helps the wort to drain quickly after pulling the malt pipe)
- As the stock setup allowed far too much malt into the boil, I use a BIAB bag in the kettle every time, and pull it before the boil

On Stuck Mashes:
My stock pump is powerful enough to collapse the grist and cause a stuck mash. Using rice hulls and being very careful to not open the ball valve too much (just get a flow going--does not need to be fast) is crucial. Also, and perhaps most importantly, I have found using the HED helps prevent a stuck mash a great deal, as the 'pull' on the grist isn't just in one, small, central place. Cellar Science Glucabuster also helps, and I can tell the difference when not using it.

On the BT thermometer:
I have tried the BT thermometer, but no longer use it. As Kegland says in their video, it measures grist mash temps where it matters most. However, in use I found it to lag the bottom temperature by a wide marge in step mashing, or if the strike temp was too low. To get the middle to catch up to the bottom, anything less than about a 10+F allowed differential does not work quickly enough to matter--the mash ends before the two reach the same temps. So, I tried a 15F and 20F differential to make things more speedy, as a 10C differential is mentioned in videos. The result was a beer with (appearant) attenuation that was way too low (did not come close to FG). My theory is that the bottom of the mash was too hot--too much differential led to different mash temps within the grist. I just need predictability and repeatability, and I know what results I get using only the bottom thermo reading, so that's now all I use.

I also am no newbie. I have the 35l version & found it to have a large learning curve. I brew all the time and each batch presents its ow challenges. I have had good success with the HED & Bluetooth thermometer. I have to note that I also use a precision analogue thermometer to read to the bottom of the mash. This allows me to fine tune to account for the temperature gradients. I have been able to get my temps to settle in within 10 minutes.
I have been brewing for over 30 years. I love every minute including both the frustrations & successes. The Brewzilla allowed me to continue my passion because I moved into a smaller house & had to get rid of my three tub system.

In summary the Brewzilla has proven to be a double edge sword. So I will conclude with “relax & have a homebrew”

 

[Mucklemann]

Thanks guys.
I think this demonstrates the complexity of dealing with organic systems.
I hope that the bullet point list can help others dial in their equipment.
I won't be able to do another batch for about 3 months due to personal issues, but when I do I'll report back.

 

[Neldog0]

I bought one of the first Gen4 65L's in the US and been using it for about 17 months and around 34 batches. I usually brew 5.75 gal batches, but have done 8 & 11 gallon batches as well. Tried every combination of PID settings, BT themometer and HED use that I can think of. Watched the David Heath and Kegland videos for PID settings. Researched PID settings. Nothing worked seemed to work, meaning chronic unsatisfactory mash temp stability...until trying the latest manual PID settings with the HED, no BT themo. I brew primarily for competition, so repeatability and predictability are very important. I've been brewing since 1996, so not a new brewer.

Also, The original false bottom fit so tightly that it would warp, which appeared to contribute to the mash stability problems and made the HED unusable. While I felt Kegland should have replaced the poorly fitting false bottom, an email response from Kegland directed me to MoreBeer to buy a new one. The new false bottom helped a great deal (for some reason), and drops in and comes out easily, and works well with the HED (not warped).

• Neoprene jacket YES
• HED: YES
• BT probe: No (I have it, but not successful IMO using it)
• Temperature hysteresis setting: 1F
• Temperature differential setting: N/A (not using BT)
• Pump power setting: 100%
• Angle of ball valve or flow rate: about: pointing at about about 8 o'clock
• Heat power setting: depends on batch size, but 5gal usually 35%
• PID on/off: On (using latest manual default PID settings)
• Ambient room temperature: whatever is outside--does not seem to make much difference

Other factors to consider:
- 35L or 65L (I have a 65L Gen4)
- Power (mine is 240V/30A)
- Use rice hulls? (I use 4-8oz every time)
- Wort viscosity aids like Glucabuster (I use it every time--really helps the wort to drain quickly after pulling the malt pipe)
- As the stock setup allowed far too much malt into the boil, I use a BIAB bag in the kettle every time, and pull it before the boil

On Stuck Mashes:
My stock pump is powerful enough to collapse the grist and cause a stuck mash. Using rice hulls and being very careful to not open the ball valve too much (just get a flow going--does not need to be fast) is crucial. Also, and perhaps most importantly, I have found using the HED helps prevent a stuck mash a great deal, as the 'pull' on the grist isn't just in one, small, central place. Cellar Science Glucabuster also helps, and I can tell the difference when not using it.

On the BT thermometer:
I have tried the BT thermometer, but no longer use it. As Kegland says in their video, it measures grist mash temps where it matters most. However, in use I found it to lag the bottom temperature by a wide marge in step mashing, or if the strike temp was too low. To get the middle to catch up to the bottom, anything less than about a 10+F allowed differential does not work quickly enough to matter--the mash ends before the two reach the same temps. So, I tried a 15F and 20F differential to make things more speedy, as a 10C differential is mentioned in videos. The result was a beer with (appearant) attenuation that was way too low (did not come close to FG). My theory is that the bottom of the mash was too hot--too much differential led to different mash temps within the grist. I just need predictability and repeatability, and I know what results I get using only the bottom thermo reading, so that's now all I use.

Something I forgot to mention. Because we are trying to get the best repeatability on our beers I looked at the sensor on the base of these units. Repeatability is the key to temp control. The sensor on the base of the unit can be keyed into what we do in homebrew. Look at the low calibration. The standard is 32f. No one goes to 32f in homebrew. If you can tighten up the range of temps for your homebrew then look at your lowest you need and calibrate the low cal to that temp & and the high to 212f. If you do this you ca improve temp repeatability by up to 47%.

FYI; I used to sell sensors

 

[Mucklemann]

If you do this you ca improve temp repeatability by up to 47%.

That is great advice (plus everything else you provided as our setups are identical). I'll calibrate it today using that method.

 

[Neldog0]

That is great advice (plus everything else you provided as our setups are identical). I'll calibrate it today using that method.

Thanks. It works great. It does not mean that you cannot looking at lower temps. It just means that the repeatability starts to drop in those ranges.

 

[Neldog0]

Brewing today. I am 30 min into it. I have been on a mash temp of 153. The range of my temps have been within +\-1 f. With 20 min at 153.
Just checked again and I’m 153.4 & holding.

 

[Yooper]

I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on the Brewzilla. Almost.......

@Neldog0 what "optional" items to you think are essential?

 

[DuncB]

I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on the Brewzilla. Almost.......

@Neldog0 what "optional" items to you think are essential?

A grainfather !!

 

[Neldog0]

A grainfather !!

Stick with Brewzilla. I have a number of people trying to figure out how it works. If you’ve got a Brewzilla. Work through the learning curve. Both units have learning curves.

What do you need to know?

 

[Neldog0]

A grainfather !!

Are trying to buy one or the other?

 

[Neldog0]

A grainfather !!

For the Brewzilla the HED (heat exchanger), & the Bluetooth thermometer. This combination provides better control of temps for your mash.
I have been very happy since I added these two items. They are inexpensive.

 

[Yooper]

A grainfather !!

\
Nope. Ruled that one out quite a long time ago for a few reasons.

 

[Yooper]

For the Brewzilla the HED (heat exchanger), & the Bluetooth thermometer. This combination provides better control of temps for your mash.
I have been very happy since I added these two items. They are inexpensive.

That's great info- thanks! @pricelessbrewing got a Brewzilla, and has given me some info too but I'm getting overwhelmed by the optional stuff. Consistent temperatures are important to me, as I'll be downsizing from a three vessel all-electric HERMS that I had nailed and never was off more than a degree or two. I hate learning new things!

 

[DuncB]

@Yooper
Over 1200 posts in this thread and a load more on the UK thread.
Think of it as enrichment and you won't hate the transition at all.

 

[Yooper]

@Yooper
Over 1200 posts in this thread and a load more on the UK thread.
Think of it as enrichment and you won't hate the transition at all.

I'm trying to- it's a bigger transition from going small with a cooler MLT to a 1/2 barrel all electric HERMS, believe it or not. That was gradual- oh, this works but I need a pump! Oh, this is great but I need another pump. Oh, I like this but should have this......
Getting rid of it now seems like selling a child.