Brewing Saison

[TheKveiking]

Hello everyone, I’m looking for any info on saisons. I have not tasted or brewed one before but they look good from online description, but words don’t have flavor. Any pros, cons, or tips are appreciated. I am an intermediate all grain brew.

 

[Funky Frank]

French/belle saison yeast is an easy starter yeast for saisons. It usually leans a little more fruity and it usually doesn’t give you problems. Remember that most of these yeasts are sta1 positive.

A good start would be half pale ale malt and half malted wheat mashed a little high (156F?). You could do a split batch and ferment half around 70F and the other around 80F if you have those options. That way you can see the difference the yeast gives and see what you like.

 

[TheKveiking]

French/belle saison yeast is an easy starter yeast for saisons. It usually leans a little more fruity and it usually doesn’t give you problems. Remember that most of these yeasts are sta1 positive.

A good start would be half pale ale malt and half malted wheat mashed a little high (156F?). You could do a split batch and ferment half around 70F and the other around 80F if you have those options. That way you can see the difference the yeast gives and see what you like.

I’ve read that you should have separate fermenters for a sta1 or you future batches will have problems, is that true? And that sounds like a good idea!

 

[Dr_Jeff]

A good cleaning is all you need

 

[TheKveiking]

A good cleaning is all you need

Okay just PBWand starsan will suffice?

 

[hotbeer]

The only thing special for or about them is the recipe that produces a beer that is considered a saison, TMK.

So the actual beer making steps can be pretty simple since saisons were made to be very simple beers.

The first beer I brewed was a saison and it came out very good IMO. Use the KISS philosophy and your saison will be good too.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Okay just PBWand starsan will suffice?

yes

I regularly brew Saisons as it is one of my favorite styles.

 

[homebrudoc]

An occasional bath in iodophor is just good practice for all homebrewers. That will take care of any STA1 or brettanomyces or pediococcus or lachancea or anything. A few batches w/ PBW, then a batch w/ iodophor. The iodophor will also show you where you haven't cleaned well.
hope this helps
homebrudoc

 

[Dr_Jeff]

The iodophor will also show you where you haven't cleaned well.

How so?
I have a bottle and have never used it, I've always stuck with StarSan.
Doesn't the iodophor stain if you get it on your hands or clothes?

 

[Elric]

An occasional bath in iodophor is just good practice for all homebrewers. That will take care of any STA1 or brettanomyces or pediococcus or lachancea or anything. A few batches w/ PBW, then a batch w/ iodophor. The iodophor will also show you where you haven't cleaned well.
hope this helps
homebrudoc

I had a cross contamination in a fermenter when I brewed a stout in it shortly after having used it for a beer that had a sta-1 saison yeast in it after doing my regular pbw-starsan routine on it. I gave the fermenter a good soak with iodophor and haven't had any further problems.

 

[shoreman]

I highly recommend this book, looks like you can get it for $5 used these days:

https://www.brewerspublications.com...ure-and-craftmanship-in-the-belgian-tradition
Start simple - pils, touch of wheat and noble hops, mash for fermentability. Start with an easy saison yeast like French Saison - that will attenuate properly. Bottle it to get the proper carbonation.

 

[MikeCo]

I highly recommend this book, looks like you can get it for $5 used these days:

Agreed - I have this book as well. You may be able to check out an electronic version from your public library if you don't want to buy it, but if you can get it for $5, it's a must have for any saison lover.

 

[Miraculix]

Don't use belle, it's really really boring and brings almost zero saison character with it. I'm still looking for a good dry saison, my next look would be at one of the fermentis yeasts but definitely not belle.

 

[MikeCo]

For dry yeast, I prefer BE-134 from Fermentis.

 

[Miraculix]

For dry yeast, I prefer BE-134 from Fermentis.

I've yet to find a really peppery dry yeast. Is that one peppery?

 

[MikeCo]

I've yet to find a really peppery dry yeast. Is that one peppery?

I can't say I've found BE-134 to be very peppery. You may want to try Lallemand Farmhouse, the new strain that is STA1 negative. Lallemand says it has a more peppery flavor when fermented at higher temperatures near 30C (86F), while it is more like a Belgian blonde or wit when fermented closer to 20C (68F). I have a saison in a keg now with this yeast, and I do detect a pepper note, but it's somewhat disguised by the fruity dry hops I used. I fermented at 78F (25C). The newsletter link below from Lallemand discusses the flavor differences for different fermentation temperatures.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/newsletter-WBWY-8-06-DIGITAL.pdf

 

[Miraculix]

I can't say I've found BE-134 to be very peppery. You may want to try Lallemand Farmhouse, the new strain that is STA1 negative. Lallemand says it has a more peppery flavor when fermented at higher temperatures near 30C (86F), while it is more like a Belgian blonde or wit when fermented closer to 20C (68F). I have a saison in a keg now with this yeast, and I do detect a pepper note, but it's somewhat disguised by the fruity dry hops I used. I fermented at 78F (25C). The newsletter link below from Lallemand discusses the flavor differences for different fermentation temperatures.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/newsletter-WBWY-8-06-DIGITAL.pdf

Already got a pack in my fridge

 

[Ruprecht]

This recipe from Azscoob is easy and fantastic:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cottage-house-saison.254684/

 

[monkeymath]

"looking for any info on saisons" is a bit broad, isn't it? There's a lot of info as well as recipes available online. Beyond that, without any info on what you expect, like, hope for, etc, it's just going to be a bunch of dudes unloading their conflicting opinions in one big dump of a thread.

In that spirit: ditch Belle Saison.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

The Saison was a basic farmhouse beer for workers to drink something that wouldn't make them sick as most water and sometimes even well water could make one sick. These beers were usually brewed at what today is referred to as table strength, 2.5-4%.

The recipe was simple malted barley and usually malted wheat, sometimes un-malted wheat, typically at a 50/50 ratio with whatever hops were local and a minimal amount used.

I prefer, the 50/50 ratio using malted barley and wheat, I typically add in a bit of coriander and sweet orange peel (1/2 ounce of each milled finely) in the last 5 minutes of the boil and prefer Saaz or Tettnanger hops. I'll usually brew mine at the super Saison strength, typically ~9%. My yeast of choice is Wyeast 3711. But again this is what I prefer.

I usually always have at least one on tap, often times several varieties.

I currently have a Black Saison as well as a barrel aged variety on tap, (I have a solara that I will pull five gallons and top it off again). A hibiscus saison is a beautiful and tasty version as well. Today the BJCP Saison specification provides for a broad range in the style.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Already got a pack in my fridge

I recently brewed a batch with Lallemand Farmhouse. I think I am pretty happy with it. It seems to have more character than Belle. I have bottles of the same recipe made with WLP565. I like the WLP565 version a bit better. The Farmhouse batch seems a bit sweet/heavy for a Saison (which I can probably address by adding some sugar to my recipe), and I want to try pushing Farmhouse a little warmer to see if that pushes some more character. I pitched at 68F and let it free rise to 76F over the first few days. I might also try Farmhouse in a 4%-ish Saison.

@TheKveiking: I have been brewing several batches of Saison over the past couple years. For a simple beer, there is a good amount of flexibility. I generally aim for around a 1.055 OG. I have been using German Pils for the majority of the grain bill. I like the "farmhouse" idea so I have been including around 15% of a grain like Rye or Spelt (I am not sure if Spelt is any different than wheat).

I find that around 5% to 10% of a character malt like Aromatic or Munich gives a touch of color and flavor. I am not sure how Dupont gets the color and grain character in their beer since it is supposed to be 100% Pils.

Some people like to add sugar to a Saison. I normally don't because I find that most Saison yeasts produce a crisp beer and I really don't want to push my Saisons into the 8% range. They already tend to creep up in ABV given the typical Saison yeast attenuation.

I have been using Hersbrucker for many of my Belgians. I liked the character of Hersbrucker so I picked up a 1 lb bag. The bag I got was 2.2% aa, so instead of throwing 3 oz to get some IBUs I have been using Northern Brewer as a bittering hop. I have made and had some nice Saisons with hops like Citra and Lemon Drop.

 

[Protos]

In my experience, the best dry yeast for Saison is Mangrove Jack's M29 French Saison. Yes, it's supposed to be a repacked Belle but it's different: while having similar flavour profile, the same Saisony flavours are much more noticeable with M29 than with Belle (Lalbrew's version is quite bland to my taste). I put M29 above BE-134 too, because M29 produces more Glycerol, and BE-134 produces less which often leads to overly thin and watery beers to my taste.

 

[Miraculix]

I recently brewed a batch with Lallemand Farmhouse. I think I am pretty happy with it. It seems to have more character than Belle. I have bottles of the same recipe made with WLP565. I like the WLP565 version a bit better. The Farmhouse batch seems a bit sweet/heavy for a Saison (which I can probably address by adding some sugar to my recipe), and I want to try pushing Farmhouse a little warmer to see if that pushes some more character. I pitched at 68F and let it free rise to 76F over the first few days. I might also try Farmhouse in a 4%-ish Saison.

@TheKveiking: I have been brewing several batches of Saison over the past couple years. For a simple beer, there is a good amount of flexibility. I generally aim for around a 1.055 OG. I have been using German Pils for the majority of the grain bill. I like the "farmhouse" idea so I have been including around 15% of a grain like Rye or Spelt (I am not sure if Spelt is any different than wheat).

I find that around 5% to 10% of a character malt like Aromatic or Munich gives a touch of color and flavor. I am not sure how Dupont gets the color and grain character in their beer since it is supposed to be 100% Pils.

Some people like to add sugar to a Saison. I normally don't because I find that most Saison yeasts produce a crisp beer and I really don't want to push my Saisons into the 8% range. They already tend to creep up in ABV given the typical Saison yeast attenuation.

I have been using Hersbrucker for many of my Belgians. I liked the character of Hersbrucker so I picked up a 1 lb bag. The bag I got was 2.2% aa, so instead of throwing 3 oz to get some IBUs I have been using Northern Brewer as a bittering hop. I have made and had some nice Saisons with hops like Citra and Lemon Drop.

Thanks, that sounds promising. I will keep your remarks in mind regarding the attenuation and will do a step mash with a long step at 62c to enhance fermentability. I will use a simple grain bill like 70/30 pilsener/spelt flour and keep the og probably about 1.045. Wheat and spelt are kind of the same, I doubt that one really could taste a difference in the final product. I prefer spelt, I like to use old varieties. My stomach also prefers spelt flour to wheat flour when making bread, so I buy superior flour anyway for baking.

 

[Beenym88]

Anybody here have trouble with spreading STA1 due to saison yeast?

 

[Miraculix]

Anybody here have trouble with spreading STA1 due to saison yeast?

Sta 1 is a genetic sequence. How should you spread that?

 

[Beenym88]

Sta 1 is a genetic sequence. How should you spread that?

You’ve never heard of diastatic contamination? It can lead to dangerous levels of carbonation.

 

[Miraculix]

You’ve never heard of diastatic contamination? It can lead to dangerous levels of carbonation.

I was just being smart as s-ish. I never had a problem with a saison yeast staying in my system. Propper cleaning routine and you're good.

 

[monkeymath]

Anybody here have trouble with spreading STA1 due to saison yeast?

A friend of mine has referred to it as "Schaumkrankheit" ("foam-illness"): after her first saison, the next couple of beers were all terrible gushers due to continued attenuation in the bottles.

I haven't had that issue yet myself *knock-on-wood*.

 

[shoreman]

Seems to be alot of people that dislike Belle - try fermenting lower (in the mid 60’s) with that yeast. I have a witbier that’s on tap right now fermented at lower temps and it’s fantastic. It’s got too much going on at the high temps, but still a good saison yeast.

 

[curtbird]

I have been brewing Saisons for more than 20 years and tried most every yeast out there. While Y3711 was a favorite for several years I have switched to 2 new yeasts not mentioned so far. They are Wyeast farmhouse ale which is a Belgian saison clone and imperial rustic yeast. Both provide outstanding phenolic saison flavors at moderate temps 66-78 F. Well review by my local HB club who are very experienced. A real disappointment were all of the Kveik strains I could find - about 8 of them. At lower or higher temps they were bland and without saison character. They are only farmhouse in style not flavor.

 

[Miraculix]

I have been brewing Saisons for more than 20 years and tried most every yeast out there. While Y3711 was a favorite for several years I have switched to 2 new yeasts not mentioned so far. They are Wyeast farmhouse ale which is a Belgian saison clone and imperial rustic yeast. Both provide outstanding phenolic saison flavors at moderate temps 66-78 F. Well review by my local HB club who are very experienced. A real disappointment were all of the Kveik strains I could find - about 8 of them. At lower or higher temps they were bland and without saison character. They are only farmhouse in style not flavor.

Which one was the most peppery one that you tried?

 

[curtbird]

Probably the wyeast farmhouse. This was a seasonal offering but may be year round now. I have to say though that while detectably different the two strains are both excellent and similar. Neither disappointed and were superior in flavor to 3711.

 

[Protos]

Anybody here have trouble with spreading STA1 due to saison yeast?

I've had several Diastaticus contaminations even despite my rigorous sanitation routine. That always happened in Summers, so I suspect hot weather makes equipment sanitation less effective of rather makes yeast more aggressive. The resulting beers came out Saisony. Sometimes that was quite a tolerable turn, and sometimes led to dumpers. Diastaticus infection is a real thing.

 

[Drewch]

This page is getting a little dusty, but still a good read if you haven't looked at it yet:

A Guide to Saisons and Saison Yeasts – Maltose Falcons

 

[Drewch]

Also, if you're worried about cross-contamination, Lallemand has their new non-STA1 saison strain that you could try. Selectively bred, not GMO, if that's a concern for you.

 

[Protos]

A Guide to Saisons and Saison Yeasts – Maltose Falcons

A very good page. I learned much from it when I was just starting brewing my Saisons and brewed their Saison Experimentale with different variations.
It's got a new design, as I see. The old one was easier to read, but whatever, it's a good primer into Saisons.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

In my experience, the best dry yeast for Saison is Mangrove Jack's M29 French Saison.

Good to hear. I just picked up a pack of M29 when I was at my local shop.

Anybody here have trouble with spreading STA1 due to saison yeast?

I have not had an issue myself, but yeah I hear others have. My girlfriend brewed a few Saisons with yeasts like Belle and one of the Fresh Saison strains. Both those batches got into the 1.000 territory, but she has not had any issues with the Stouts that she likes to brew. We both just have a fairly standard clean + Star San process.

This page is getting a little dusty, but still a good read if you haven't looked at it yet:

It would be cool if Drew cycled back to fill out some of the "Testing 2018" entries. With my last WLP565 batch, I tried to follow Drew's advice about pitching cool and keeping the batch cool for the first few days. It is a nice beer but I feel like I got more or the character that I liked by pitching around 68F and letting the beer free rise during the first few days of active fermentation to the 75F to 80F range. I want to play with pitching a touch warmer as well.

In general, I have found that most combos of recipes and yeast makes a pretty nice Saison! They are fairly forgiving of fermentation temperature. Plus, they are just about one of the cheapest beers to make.

 

[Miraculix]

Is there somewhere a good comparison of the current dry yeast options we have for a saison?

We've already covered three of them here. What else do we got?

 

[Protos]

Are there any at all, besides M29, BE-134 and Belle Saison?
M31 is sometimes rumoured to be another dry Saison strain (ostensibly repacked BE-134, which is hardly true, as Fermentis most probably don't sell their yeast rebranded). M31 does produce some slight Saison-like notes (closer to BE-134 than to M29, if anything), but it's apparently a blend with just a bit of Saison yeast, so not a true Saison yeast.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Are there any at all, besides M29, BE-134 and Belle Saison?

There is the Lallemand Farmhouse that has been mentioned above. I used M31 in a Tripel and I cannot say I get much Saison characters (but it made a very nice Tripel). I have a pack of M29 to try and I want to try BE-134 (had not been in stock at my local stores or my last couple web orders).