Brew Calculations Issue - New Brewhouse/Equipment Loss

[MMP126]

Hey Gents.

I need someone to help me with an issue I saw with my brewing calculations.

FWIW, I have my own brewing calc sheets. I do not use a website or BeerSmith or anything.

I just got a new brewhouse setup, and the brewhouse has added 0.75gal of water (equipment) loss to the overall brew process. So, I have to add the 0.75gal of water, so I can hit my target batch volume.

So, I put the old (same exact weight and grains) grain bill from a past brew (on the old brewhouse), into the new brewhouse sheets. I add the 0.75gal I am losing, so I can hit my target batch volume. But, I look at my calculated pre-boil and post-boil OG, and they are the same as the previous brewhouse.

For example:

Old System:
Total Grain Weight: 16lb
Required Water: 10gal
Pre-Boil OG: 1.059
Post Boil OG: 1.075

New System:
Total Grain Weight: 16lb (Same EXACT grain bill as the above)
Required Water: 10.75gal
Pre-Boil OG: 1.059
Post Boil OG: 1.075

I am not sure how this is possible? How do I get the same numbers when 0.75gal more water touches the grain? I am sure confused.

I checked everything with the brewer's friend website, and the math all checks out. I just cannot wrap my head around how I can add 0.75gal to the overall water volume, with the same grain bill, and still get the same pre boil and post boil OG?

What am I missing? Help me out dudes!

 

[Franktalk]

Is your final yield the same, or has that dropped by .75 gal?

 

[IslandLizard]

No it doesn't make sense. Either is plausible, but not both together.

To me it looks like your mash got more efficient. 0.75 gallon more wort at the same gravity as before. You sure you measured gravity correctly, and didn't have any stratification in the collected wort?

Are your final, post boil volumes in the kettle the same on both the old and new system?
Or are you measuring fermenter volumes?

 

[ebbelwoi]

Assuming your yield is the same, or higher, wouldn't that mean that your efficiency has improved?

 

[MMP126]

This wasn't done from an actual brew. I was just planning a future brew of an old recipe on my old system, but adapting it to my new system. There are no actual measurements yet. Just planning.

My final yield is the same. The volumes are all the same. My pre-boil wort amount, post boil wort amount, volume to the fermentor, and volume to packaging. Water just gets lost along the way, but the additional water will touch the grain. Doesnt make sense to me how the math works out...

 

[Jag75]

With OG calculations it has nothing to do with water amount . It's just points from grains × efficiency % ÷ by batch volume.

Pre boil volume is as follows
Batch volume + ( boil loss × minutes of boil)

Pre boil gravity is calculated as
Batch volume × OG÷pre boil vol

Maybe I'm way off but that's my thought at why your numbers were the same .

 

[Jag75]

Your pre boil gravity should be less with the same efficiency now that I think about it . Your gonna have a bigger pre boil volume which will knock off a few gravity points . Hmmm this is like a riddle lol. It's got my brain working I tell you that .

 

[IslandLizard]

It's got my brain working I tell you that .

Ouch! That sounds painful.

More coffee?

 

[Jag75]

Ouch! That sounds painful.

More coffee?

Yes please haha

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Where do you lose the 0.75 gal of water with your new system?

I am not sure what you are doing with your spreadsheet, but all the tools that I have used are based off an efficiency number that I have to enter. If you are losing water in your mash/lauter tun, then you probably need to change your efficiency down to match reality.

 

[MMP126]

Yeah, that is what I started to reason out.

My new losses are mainly from transferring strike and sparge water from my HLT, which account for 0.6gal of the total loss of 0.75gal. So, that is just equipment loss, and that water doesnt really touch the grain.

The other 0.15gal is loss from my new mash tun. So, that would affect my efficiency, but we are talking about 1 or 2 points I am thinking. And, I am thinking that my calculations took this into account.

Theory will turn into reality on Saturday, so I will report back then! Maybe then it will make a little more sense.

 

[kh54s10]

Any losses that are not wort would only be accounting for total water needed. Any losses of wort should lower your efficiency. Maybe that can be accounted for in some other area. Maybe the wort losses were small enough that it didn't make the software change the values.

 

[Aristoi]

My new losses are mainly from transferring strike and sparge water from my HLT, which account for 0.6gal of the total loss of 0.75gal. So, that is just equipment loss, and that water doesnt really touch the grain.

The other 0.15gal is loss from my new mash tun. So, that would affect my efficiency, but we are talking about 1 or 2 points I am thinking. And, I am thinking that my calculations took this into account.

Doesn't this explain it? If 0.6 of 0.75 gallons doesn't make it into the mash tun you are netting 10.15 gallon and that is what your mash volume is based on. This is close to being negligible on efficiency in my book or well within the batch to batch efficiency variability.

 

[balrog]

It's kinda like saying you have a deeper well now but if your mash tun still is the same size and the water into the mash tun is the same volume then it doesn't matter that your supply water is larger and unused, and waiting for Lassie to get help because someone fell in it.

 

[MMP126]

So. Update. I brewed yesterday, and I was 7 points low on both my preboil and postboil gravity readings. Efficiency was about 67%, when we are used to 75% on the old brewhouse.

Does this shed any light on anything for anyone? Maybe our efficiency has just taken a hit? I am stuck on the whole, too much additional water, thing.

Any other thoughts?

 

[kh54s10]

Try running your recipe through Brewer's Friend or other software again and see if anything changes.

If you are leaving wort behind your efficiency will drop, though I wouldn't think that much.

Crush the same?

It could easily be that the new system will not be as efficient as the old system. If so does your spreadsheet allow you to change expected efficiency? Lower it so that you use a little more grain, then if your efficiency improves you can raise it back up. If you can't make that adjustment I would suggest using a commercial recipe building program.

It may take a few brew days to tweak things. Check everything you can, volumes, recipe, grain crush etc. Make adjustments if you can figure out which to try.

You'll get there.