Brett IPA questions

[Ilikecats12]

I was recently given a package of White Labs Brett C and have decided to brew a Brett IPA with it.

I have no prior experience brewing a Brett IPA or even using Brett at all.

I have researched elsewhere online but am wondering what the folks over here at HBT have to recommend. Here are my questions:

1. In order to achieve a nice funk should I pitch the Brett after Sacc fermentation or should I go for a 100% Brett IPA? I have heard beers fermented 100% with Brett can actually have less funky qualities than beers with Brett pitched in the secondary because they don't ferment as many long-chain carbohydrates.

2. What is a good fermentation temperature for Brett to get the fruity and funky qualities? I've heard that fermenting higher will produce more esters but how high is too high or high enough? 75, 77, 80?? How will this affect the byproducts of the Sacc if I go with the secondary pitch method?

3. Are there any specific adjustments I should make to a regular IPA grainbill to accommodate for the Brett (particularly if I go the 100% Brett method)? I have read adding some white wheat will help with body since Brett doesn't produce glycerol.

4. Any opinions on what works best for a Brett starter or any tips someone more familiar with Brett C can provide?

Thanks and Cheers!

 

[porterpounder]

I did a nice big Brett IPA a few months ago. Pitched dry US-05 and American Farmhouse blend in primary. Brett took about 2 months to come through as funk, but initially the batch was very much tropical fruit. However, I did use a butt-load of Citra and NZ hops so the fruit character was likely from the hops, although as the classic Brett funk increases, the tropical fruitness is not going away, just slowly reducing. Fermented at 68 and ramped to 72 to finish out. Grain bill was for a white IPA.

Batch Size: 11.00 gal Style: Saison (16C)
Boil Size: 13.94 gal Style Guide: BJCP 2008
Color: 6.4 SRM Equipment: My System-11 Gallon Batch
Bitterness: 73.2 IBUs Boil Time: 90 min
Est OG: 1.063 (15.4° P) Mash Profile: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Est FG: 1.011 SG (2.8° P) Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
ABV: 6.9% Taste Rating: 30.0
Ingredients
Amount Name Type #
14.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60 min) Misc 1
14 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 2
8 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3
2 lbs Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 4
12.0 oz Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain 5
1.6 oz Magnum [11.6%] - Boil 60 min Hops 6
2.00 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15 min) Misc 7
1.0 oz Citra [12.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops 8
1.0 oz Mosaic [11.5%] - Boil 10 min Hops 9
1.0 oz Motueka [6.8%] - Boil 10 min Hops 10
2.00 Servomyces (Boil 10 min) Misc 11
2.1 oz Citra [12.0%] - Boil 5 min Hops 12
2.1 oz Kohatu [6.8%] - Boil 5 min Hops 13
2.1 oz Mosaic [11.5%] - Boil 5 min Hops 14
3.5 oz Citra [12.0%] - Boil 0 min Hops 15
3.5 oz Kohatu [6.8%] - Boil 0 min Hops 16
2.6 oz Mosaic [11.5%] - Boil 0 min Hops 17
2 pkgs American Farmhouse Blend (White Labs #WLP670) Yeast 18
2 pkgs Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 19
4.2 oz Mosaic [11.5%] - Dry Hop 7 days Hops 20
Taste Notes
2015 New England Regional HBC- 2nd Place Specialty Beer.
Notes
8/1/15: Mashed in with 5 gal of 170F water to hit 150 F. Added 6 ml of 88% lactic acid to the mash. 60 min mash with 5 min recirc. Acidified 14 gal of sparge water with 2.5 ml 88% lactic acid. Used hop spider in the boil. PB 13.5P. OG 15.6

 

[MattHollingsworth]

1. White Labs Brett C is nice for using in 100% Brett beers and works well with hoppy beers, though the Brett *will* dominate. Hops will be dominant for the first 2 months. At about month 3, the Brett will have taken over though the hops will still show. Brett will be in the lead, though. Skip the secondary, just keep it in primary that whole time. At bottling, no need to add fresh yeast. The Brett will still be totally viable and will carb the beer.

2. I ferment with that strain around 80. I've had good success pitching in the mid 70s, then letting it warm to 80 or so. Not the same for all strains, but warmer temps work good with this strain.

3. I use about 20% wheat malt. Sometimes I use flaked wheat instead and some flaked oats. Wheat malt has worked well for me with this strain.

4. Everyone will have a different opinion, of course, but I start the starter about 2 weeks ahead of time and do a 3 step starter. Step 1, 400ml for 3-4 days on a stir plate. Step 2, add 600 ml, 3 days. Step 3, add 1 liter, still on the stirplate for 3 or so days. Chill the starter for 4 days or so, decant and pitch. (edit: This is with White Labs Brett, which contains a smaller amount of Brett than Wyeast packets.)

I also reduce the ibus a touch from a normal IPA and do a pretty good knock out hop addition. Pile on those late hops. Think New World hops.

Not really an IPA, but see my recipe Claussenii Blanc in my recipe section under my name. Some acid malt too for the Brett to convert to Ethyl Lactate. See American Sour Beers for more on that.

 

[m00ps]

Definitely do a starter. White labs bug vials are not made with the intent of a primary fermentation cell count

also, keep in mind that 100% brett beers ferment much quicker than mixed cultures. 3 weeks usually for me with my brett ipas

 

[specharka]

I have been told that 100% Brett beers will produce less funk than a sacc-fermented beer with Brett added to it, since Brett cannibalizes a lot of the esters into acidic components. I am not sure how much truth there is in this assertion, but I would like to try it and find out.

I don't have that much experience brewing with Brett, but I would love to experiment with it in the near future.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I have been told that 100% Brett beers will produce less funk than a sacc-fermented beer with Brett added to it, since Brett cannibalizes a lot of the esters into acidic components. I am not sure how much truth there is in this assertion, but I would like to try it and find out.

I don't have that much experience brewing with Brett, but I would love to experiment with it in the near future.

It's true with a lot of strains, but Brett C produces a very nice funk all on its own. So does Yeast Bay's Lochristi blend. In my experience, Brett L and B from White Labs produce somewhat boring beers when used as the only yeast in fermentation.

 

[didinho]

many brett strains release more funky aromas if used after Saccaromyces: there is less food for them, the cells are stressed so release secondary compounds.
If you use 100% brett, there will be funkyness, but smoother, rounder and more balanced: I tasted great 100% brett beers.

be careful in measuring FG: brett will go on eating for months all residual complex suars in the bottle, so let it rest the yeast few weeks before racking/bottling

 

[specharka]

many brett strains release more funky aromas if used after Saccaromyces: there is less food for them, the cells are stressed so release secondary compounds.

If you use 100% brett, there will be funkyness, but smoother, rounder and more balanced: I tasted great 100% brett beers.



be careful in measuring FG: brett will go on eating for months all residual complex suars in the bottle, so let it rest the yeast few weeks before racking/bottling

I think this is less of a concern with 100% Brett beers since there is a much larger population of Brett to attenuate quickly. I just wouldn't want to give it a lot of complex sugars to eat in the first place.

 

[m00ps]

brett can eat some of the most complex sugars. It evolved to live inside barrels and feed on the natural sugars in the wood. Throw as much as you want at it

 

[Ilikecats12]

1. White Labs Brett C is nice for using in 100% Brett beers and works well with hoppy beers, though the Brett *will* dominate. Hops will be dominant for the first 2 months. At about month 3, the Brett will have taken over though the hops will still show. Brett will be in the lead, though. Skip the secondary, just keep it in primary that whole time. At bottling, no need to add fresh yeast. The Brett will still be totally viable and will carb the beer.

2. I ferment with that strain around 80. I've had good success pitching in the mid 70s, then letting it warm to 80 or so. Not the same for all strains, but warmer temps work good with this strain.

3. I use about 20% wheat malt. Sometimes I use flaked wheat instead and some flaked oats. Wheat malt has worked well for me with this strain.

4. Everyone will have a different opinion, of course, but I start the starter about 2 weeks ahead of time and do a 3 step starter. Step 1, 400ml for 3-4 days on a stir plate. Step 2, add 600 ml, 3 days. Step 3, add 1 liter, still on the stirplate for 3 or so days. Chill the starter for 4 days or so, decant and pitch.

I also reduce the ibus a touch from a normal IPA and do a pretty good knock out hop addition. Pile on those late hops. Think New World hops.

Not really an IPA, but see my recipe Claussenii Blanc in my recipe section under my name. Some acid malt too for the Brett to convert to Ethyl Lactate. See American Sour Beers for more on that.

Thanks for the thorough response!! I will definitely check out your recipe as I am just now getting into sour/funky beers and will probably start brewing more of them if I can.

A few follow up questions:
Do you still use DME like a regular Sacc. starter? If so how much do you use for each step? An O.G. of around 1.04?

I currently don't have a stir plate. I just have a 2 liter Erlenmeyer flask and a gallon growler but this 3 step starter sounds like a good idea! Is there anything I can do besides intermittent shaking to make up for the lack of a stir plate?

Also, I've heard of people buying all separate equipment to make beers with bugs in them. Do you think this is necessary or are there only certain items (tubing or siphon) that should be used specifically for bugged beer?

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Thanks for the thorough response!! I will definitely check out your recipe as I am just now getting into sour/funky beers and will probably start brewing more of them if I can.

A few follow up questions:
Do you still use DME like a regular Sacc. starter? If so how much do you use for each step? An O.G. of around 1.04?

I currently don't have a stir plate. I just have a 2 liter Erlenmeyer flask and a gallon growler but this 3 step starter sounds like a good idea! Is there anything I can do besides intermittent shaking to make up for the lack of a stir plate?

Also, I've heard of people buying all separate equipment to make beers with bugs in them. Do you think this is necessary or are there only certain items (tubing or siphon) that should be used specifically for bugged beer?

You're welcome!

I use DME, yes. Use metrics and it's easier. For 400 ml of starter, 40 grams of DME. For 600ml, 60 grams and so on. Easy.

Regular shaking should help. You want to aerate it and degas the CO2 and keep the yeast in suspension.

I am not a DIY guy. I color comics for a living and have NO bloody know how about building stuff. So, I *bought* my stirplate from this guy. Been using it for many years now, no problem. And he even replaced the stir bar for me at one point. Works for a 2 liter flask as well.

http://www.stirstarters.com/

I use separate plastic, so a separate siphon and funnel. I ferment in glass, so don't separate those. But I have to be honest here and say that I don't actually think it's really necessary to use separate equipment for regular, non aged beers. Probably someone will jump on me for saying this, but I have a decent amount of experience with Brett and just a touch of experience with sour beers. Even when we dose Brett into a beer ON PURPOSE, it usually takes a few months to show up. For some moderately quick drinking beer, like normal ales, I don't really think any residual Brett would have any effect for many months and would thus be a moot point (one caveat, be aware of possible bottle bombs if you DO have Brett carry over and DO age the beer in the bottle, as it keeps carbing the beer.). Bacteria usually takes many months to sour a beer as well. A long aging RIS? Sure, that could have a problem. Aging a Belgian Tripel? Sure, that might as well, but it might also be nice if it had some Brett in it. I guess it depends on what you want. I still DO use a separate siphon and funnel, but I don't really think it's something that needs to be worried about too much. That said, I am not doing many "clean" beers these days. Never had a cross infection, though. I guess I'm at about 30-40 wild beers now out of 230 something batches and none of those have cross contaminated. I would say for the start, at least, just buy a separate funnel and siphon and mark them so you don't forget which is which.

 

[Ilikecats12]

So... I actually came and picked up the yeast and it turns out its actually a Wyeast private selection Brett C and Lactic Acid mix, Wyeast 5151-PC.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/PC2Q2010.cfm

How will this affect the previous advice I've been given?

edited:I looked this up https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=538416 here and found the answer (its also from 2015 https://www.wyeastlab.com/Q2PCstrains2015acv.cfm). Nevermind!

 

[MattHollingsworth]

So... I actually came and picked up the yeast and it turns out its actually a Wyeast private selection Brett C and Lactic Acid mix, Wyeast 5151-PC.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/PC2Q2010.cfm

How will this affect the previous advice I've been given?

edited:I looked this up https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=538416 here and found the answer (its also from 2015 https://www.wyeastlab.com/Q2PCstrains2015acv.cfm). Nevermind!

Yeah, as that thread points out, it doesn't have any Lacto. It's just Brett C. I haven't used the Wyeast version, but the White Labs version is great. Plays well with hops. Won't reveal real Brett notes until 2 months or so, at 3 months the Brett is very nice. But like I said, that's the White Labs version. My recipe Claussenii Blanc used that White Labs version of that strain.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

BTW, you should check the date on that yeast. Looks like it was available from April to June, 2015. So your yeast might be a bit out of date. Might need to make a large starter.

 

[Ilikecats12]

BTW, you should check the date on that yeast. Looks like it was available from April to June, 2015. So your yeast might be a bit out of date. Might need to make a large starter.

I noticed that as well (no wonder he just gave it to me haha). The packaging date was April 29th so it is definitely out of date. Should I just make a larger three step starter or what would you recommend?

 

[m00ps]

brett and bacteria are pretty hardy. just definitely do a starter and start small. itll take off eventually

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I noticed that as well (no wonder he just gave it to me haha). The packaging date was April 29th so it is definitely out of date. Should I just make a larger three step starter or what would you recommend?

What m00ps wrote. Brett is indeed pretty strong. I'd still do the same kind of stepped up starter like I wrote before.