Bottle caps and alleged oxygen ingress.

[Hermit]

I don't come here much anymore because useful information seems to be getting less and less. Now I see people talking about how beer goes bad because of bottle caps letting in oxygen? I have some old beers that still go 'psssst' when I open them. If they are holding carbonation then how the mother flipper are they letting in oxygen? Seriously?

 

[MaxStout]

Just because your bottle caps are holding up, doesn't mean everyone else's will. Obviously, someone is encountering leaky caps.

 

[Hermit]

Just because your bottle caps are holding up, doesn't mean everyone else's will. Obviously, someone is encountering leaky caps.

People are posting as if this is the norm yet I haven't run into it.

Is this a cap issue or a crappy capper? I vaguely remember people talking about being able to twist their caps by hand after installing? Is this from bad technique or bad cappers? Either way, this isn't a universal cap problem that people seem to be insisting on.

 

[MaxStout]

Just because you haven't run into it, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

I don't think it is ever a universal problem. There are instances where some people have observed bottles losing carbonation due to bad caps or improper sealing. More likely the latter.

Perhaps you can post links to threads where you have seen "people posting as if this is the norm"?

 

[Hermit]

Can 't find them easily. I didn't post in the threads and the forum software doesn't make it easy. People were throwing this about as if it was the norm and expected behavior. After thinking about my old carbed bottles I realized this just didn't sound right. But, like I said, I don't come much anymore because stuff like this just puts me off. I find myself up against folks pulling figures out of who knows where that just don't match up with my personal experience. That and kegging beer is impossible because the CO2 is only like 99.9% pure.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Caps don't seal perfectly. That's fact. But it's a slow process of gasses diffusing through the seal. Even commercial beers with tightly controlled DO figures through the whole process will show oxidation over time and eventually lose carb. Drank plenty of flat or near flat 10 y/o cellared commercial beers.

Either you haven't sat on something long enough or don't know what oxidation tastes like.

If caps are failing at a couple months, then yeah, there's something else going on. This is a process of years and/or abuse, not weeks or months.

 

[Hermit]

Well, I started brewing before my join date here. I still have a few of my original brews. When I open them they aren't flat. I won't say they are perfectly carbed, but they have a positive pressure. If it takes longer than that to leak out at positive pressure then how long before ingress at a steady state? I just don't believe that I'm getting ingress as long as I have a positive pressure bottle. My first batch was a milk stout that finished at 1.030. It wasn't very drinkable so I use it in sour kraut on New Years. Last year's bottle still fizzed quite a bit when I poured it in.

 

[day_trippr]

"It is certainly counter-intuitive at first that you can have gas flow in a reverse direction to the pressure gradient (e.g. the pressure inside the bottle is ~3 atm, while the pressure outside is ~1 atm), but it does."

“Over a 6 month period a typical crown cap will allow approximately 1500 ppb of O2 to enter the bottle. Bottles with more than 600 ppb O2 will show definite signs of staling in 6 months. The Oxygen barrier cap limits the O2 ingress to (if you do not sanitize, as the sanitizer and water will have O2 negating any positive effects.) ~125 ppb over the same 6 month period (at 24°C).” (Data from the Proceedings of the European Brewing Convention held in Oslo 1993, pg 654)."

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

"It is certainly counter-intuitive at first that you can have gas flow in a reverse direction to the pressure gradient (e.g. the pressure inside the bottle is ~3 atm, while the pressure outside is ~1 atm), but it does."

“Over a 6 month period a typical crown cap will allow approximately 1500 ppb of O2 to enter the bottle. Bottles with more than 600 ppb O2 will show definite signs of staling in 6 months. The Oxygen barrier cap limits the O2 ingress to (if you do not sanitize, as the sanitizer and water will have O2 negating any positive effects.) ~125 ppb over the same 6 month period (at 24°C).” (Data from the Proceedings of the European Brewing Convention held in Oslo 1993, pg 654)."

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/

Cheers!

Great info, thanks!

Glad to know that if I purge or reduce bottle headspace and use O2 barrier caps that bottling really won't introduce much oxygen over a few months.

 

[Big Monk]

Great info, thanks!

Glad to know that if I purge or reduce bottle headspace and use O2 barrier caps that bottling really won't introduce much oxygen over a few months.

I typically bottle with remaining extract. I've tried a few ways and in order of how much sediment will be left in the bottles (the list is from least sediment to most, keeping in mind that more sediment also equals better oxygen scavenging);

1.) Let beer finish at terminal gravity and quickly bottle off fermenter while dosing individual bottles with yeast and sugar solution (Least sediment)
2.) Leave 1-2 gravity points left and supplement with sugar solution dosed right into individual bottles while bottling off fermenter (More sediment, better scavenging)
3.) Calculate desired carbonation and determine transfer gravity (likely 3-4 gravity points) and bottle straight off the fermenter (Most sediment, best scavenging)

3.) has proved to preserve the flavors in my Trappist ales the best but the tradeoff is about 3/8"-1/2" of sediment in the bottom of the bottles. Moving to 22 oz. bottles mitigates the "less than a full beer" issue from avoiding sediment and cold conditioning helps settle everything out suitably.

 

[Hermit]

"It is certainly counter-intuitive at first that you can have gas flow in a reverse direction to the pressure gradient (e.g. the pressure inside the bottle is ~3 atm, while the pressure outside is ~1 atm), but it does."

Counter-intuitive and counter my experience. I gotta dump all my beer bottled beer before 6 months?

At least I can read this study.
http://www.agraria.com.br/extranet/...o/entrada_de_ar_tampas_de_polivinil_-_ing.pdf

Note its age and the conclusion that material plays a significant role. I find nothing newer so maybe it was 'lesson learned' by the bottle cap makers?

 

[kh54s10]

This all seems like you are looking for a problem that is insignificant. Unless you are going to keep your beers for 10 years, a little ingress of o2 through the seal of the caps should not be of much concern. The longest I have kept a beer was about 3 years. It peaked in flavor at about 1.5 years and didn't start degrading until about 2.5 years, and even then just very slightly. It could have been from o2 but I can't say that for sure.

OP, I have been on this site almost every day since I joined and haven't seen anything like "People are posting as if this is the norm." In fact this is the first that I have seen. I have seen some where it was determined that the problem was with the capping. Caps or cappers.

 

[day_trippr]

Counter-intuitive and counter my experience. I gotta dump all my beer bottled beer before 6 months? At least I can read this study. http://www.agraria.com.br/extranet/...o/entrada_de_ar_tampas_de_polivinil_-_ing.pdf [...]

"Permeability and Taste Using the experimentally determined transmission rate for nitrogen (0.0025 ml/day) and the fact that oxygen is approximately three times more permeable in PVC than nitrogen (see earlier discussion), one can calculate that 0.0018 ml of oxygen per day can get into a beer bottle stored in air at room temperature, or about 0.11 ml in two months. This translates into an additional 0.5 ml of air per 12-oz package—an amount that would certainly be unacceptable in production and one that could affect flavor."

Not much solace there...

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Cap ingress is a frequent topic in the lodo crowd, especially as it pertains to the availability if fresh examples of German beer in the US.

You'll indeed see staling in 6 mos or less. That means subtle flavor changes. Not OMG DUMP IT.

And amongst the LODO crowd they're holding themselves to far higher standards than most homebrewers. And their whole aim is freshness. So they are concerned with that minute change.

I think you're over-thinking the problem.

 

[Big Monk]

Cap ingress is a frequent topic in the lodo crowd, especially as it pertains to the availability if fresh examples of German beer in the US.

You'll indeed see staling in 6 mos or less. That means subtle flavor changes. Not OMG DUMP IT.

And amongst the LODO crowd they're holding themselves to far higher standards than most homebrewers. And their whole aim is freshness. So they are concerned with that minute change.

I think you're over-thinking the problem.

Perfectly stated. It’s amplified for us.

 

[Hermit]

"Permeability and Taste Using the experimentally determined transmission rate for nitrogen (0.0025 ml/day) and the fact that oxygen is approximately three times more permeable in PVC than nitrogen (see earlier discussion), one can calculate that 0.0018 ml of oxygen per day can get into a beer bottle stored in air at room temperature, or about 0.11 ml in two months. This translates into an additional 0.5 ml of air per 12-oz package—an amount that would certainly be unacceptable in production and one that could affect flavor."

Not much solace there...

Cheers!

"The phenomenon does not occur in bottles sealed with aluminum spot-lined crowns or in cans."

There is solace in the conclusion. Like I said, cherry picking lines out of old studies isn't useful. This was a known problem in 1987 but there was already a solution put forth. Don't use PVC in the cap. Can you find me a recent study that shows this ingress because my google-fu may just be too weak to find it.

 

[Big Monk]

"The phenomenon does not occur in bottles sealed with aluminum spot-lined crowns or in cans."

There is solace in the conclusion. Like I said, cherry picking lines out of old studies isn't useful. This was a known problem in 1987 but there was already a solution put forth. Don't use PVC in the cap. Can you find me a recent study that shows this ingress because my google-fu may just be too weak to find it.

Forget about the cap ingress for a minute.

Most people, as a general rule, are starting with bottles that have a fairly high TPO. So small amounts of ingress from a cap wouldn’t make a difference anyway.

Keggers who properly purge don’t have this issue.

On the other hand, someone like me who bottles with remaining extract has essentially zero TPO. So for me, even small amounts of ingress starts to degrade nuance flavors I worked hard for.

To each thier own. Different methods for different results.

 

[Hermit]

From my reading and experience, high alcohol dark beers with low hops seem to age better. Again, 31 year old research showed this as a solved problem. Change the cap. Can anyone point me to recent literature saying this is still a problem? It doesn't take much to pick potential holes in that 31 year old paper anyhow but that's not the point. They had a solution 31 years ago and people keep siting ancient literature to claim it is an ongoing problem. Just find me something newer if you want to convince me to abandon my own observations.

 

[mongoose33]

From my reading and experience, high alcohol dark beers with low hops seem to age better. Again, 31 year old research showed this as a solved problem. Change the cap. Can anyone point me to recent literature saying this is still a problem? It doesn't take much to pick potential holes in that 31 year old paper anyhow but that's not the point. They had a solution 31 years ago and people keep siting ancient literature to claim it is an ongoing problem. Just find me something newer if you want to convince me to abandon my own observations.

I don't think anyone wants or needs to convince you of anything. Do or do not; it's up to you.

 

[Rodent]

I find myself up against folks pulling figures out of who knows where that just don't match up with my personal experience.

what an interesting statement ...

 

[Hermit]

Basic science. When observations don't match the calculations you need to re-examine both. I do my part by repeatedly examining old bottles of beer.

 

[Big Monk]

From my reading and experience, high alcohol dark beers with low hops seem to age better. Again, 31 year old research showed this as a solved problem. Change the cap. Can anyone point me to recent literature saying this is still a problem? It doesn't take much to pick potential holes in that 31 year old paper anyhow but that's not the point. They had a solution 31 years ago and people keep siting ancient literature to claim it is an ongoing problem. Just find me something newer if you want to convince me to abandon my own observations.

The best thing I can suggest is to send a sample of fresh beer to be analyzed for TPO. Then send samples at intervals desirable to you, i.e. 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, etc. Compare. If you find the numbers you see don't jive with any flavor impacts, then you have what you need to make a decision.

We have done this and the results show a big enough amount of ingress to try and combat it, from a flavor hit standpoint. Even without the lab anaylsis, we felt there was a difference. You may feel otherwise.

Chuck Berry once said, and I quote:

"It's a free country, live how you wanna live baby!"

 

[Hermit]

OK. Now I get it. When you said we I looked a little further. You are this Derek Scott?

"Derek is an electrical engineer who started brewing, like many, with an extract kit gifted from his wife on his birthday in 2015."

Personally, most engineers I know would take a long hard look at their own procedure once provided with research showing a problem had been solved 31 years ago and others didn't appear to be having it. Amateur astronomers know that sometimes when you look through a telescope you might not see a faint object but as soon as you look away you catch a glimpse of it in your peripheral vision. This is called averted vision. Sometimes you still aren't quite sure if you've seen it but think you did. Then they say they caught it with their 'averted imagination".

"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong " Buffalo Springfield.

 

[day_trippr]

It doesn't take much looking around to find there's still significant research going into crown caps to deal with all the potential issues they bring to beer packaging. It also doesn't take much looking around to see the craft industry is rapidly moving away from glass to avoid the continuing issues with bottle closures...

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

OK. Now I get it. When you said we I looked a little further. You are this Derek Scott?

"Derek is an electrical engineer who started brewing, like many, with an extract kit gifted from his wife on his birthday in 2015."

Personally, most engineers I know would take a long hard look at their own procedure once provided with research showing a problem had been solved 31 years ago and others didn't appear to be having it. Amateur astronomers know that sometimes when you look through a telescope you might not see a faint object but as soon as you look away you catch a glimpse of it in your peripheral vision. This is called averted vision. Sometimes you still aren't quite sure if you've seen it but think you did. Then they say they caught it with their 'averted imagination".

"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong " Buffalo Springfield.

I’m not sure what you are driving at with this post. I got into this aspect of brewing precisely because I AM an engineer and am adept at looking through scientific texts and papers for information.

Crown cap oxygen ingress is not settled, i.e. a solved issue. It’s light years ahead of 30 years ago but it still exists.

The burden of proof is not on everyone else because you demand it to be so.

 

[Hermit]

It doesn't take much looking around to find there's still significant research going into crown caps to deal with all the potential issues they bring to beer packaging. It also doesn't take much looking around to see the craft industry is rapidly moving away from glass to avoid the continuing issues with bottle closures...

Cheers!

I'm not finding it and have asked for it. I posted what I found. Please feel free to do the same. But, by the time you do, if you do, well see below.

 

[Hermit]

I’m not sure what you are driving at with this post. I got into this aspect of brewing precisely because I AM an engineer and am adept at looking through scientific texts and papers for information.

Crown cap oxygen ingress is not settled, i.e. a solved issue. It’s light years ahead of 30 years ago but it still exists.

The burden of proof is not on everyone else because you demand it to be so.

Your site lists old research yet now you argue that we are light years ahead? I was waiting for you to make the obvious point about the conclusion I posted from the paper but you didn't. Adept is your own assessment. Last time I was driven off the site by the 'hot side aeration is a myth' people. Now I'm being driven off by people arguing aeration is so bad people probably shouldn't even bother trying to brew. This is pure comedic gold from my standpoint. I'm out. Maybe I'll check back in another 5 years to see what the insanity/silver bullet of brewing is then. You win. I'm gone.

 

[mongoose33]

Now I'm being driven off by people arguing aeration is so bad people probably shouldn't even bother trying to brew. This is pure comedic gold from my standpoint. I'm out. Maybe I'll check back in another 5 years to see what the insanity/silver bullet of brewing is then. You win. I'm gone.

Well, that ended predictably. I wonder if anyone could post 2 or 3 links to "people arguing aeration is so bad people probably shouldn't even bother trying to brew."

I've missed those...I'd like to read them.

 

[Big Monk]

Well, that ended predictably. I wonder if anyone could post 2 or 3 links to "people arguing aeration is so bad people probably shouldn't even bother trying to brew."

I've missed those...I'd like to read them.

Right.

We just keep chugging along. There’s always one in every handful of posts.

Somehow he glossed over the “we measured our beers in a lab for TPO” comment of mine as well as the comical Chuck Berry quote that basically said “Do you Bro”.

Heavy sigh.....

 

[MaxStout]

Well, that ended predictably. I wonder if anyone could post 2 or 3 links to "people arguing aeration is so bad people probably shouldn't even bother trying to brew."

I've missed those...I'd like to read them.

Being one to try to find a silver lining no matter what, I actually gained knowledge from this thread. No, not from OP. But from the others who jumped in. I never would have considered the possibility of O2 ingress into a carbed (i.e., pressurized) bottle, but the science makes sense. I'm a die-hard bottler, and always looking for ideas. RPI's three methods in post #10 was something to consider.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm not finding it and have asked for it. I posted what I found. Please feel free to do the same. But, by the time you do, if you do, well see below.

Published in 2018...took like 15 seconds to come across it...

http://www.mibeer.com/_literature_144420/A_Brief_Study_on_the_Impact_of_crown_Liners_of_Beer_Aroma_–_Rich_Michaels_–_FX_Matt_Brewing_Company

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

Published in 2018...took like 15 seconds to come across it...

http://www.mibeer.com/_literature_144420/A_Brief_Study_on_the_Impact_of_crown_Liners_of_Beer_Aroma_–_Rich_Michaels_–_FX_Matt_Brewing_Company

Cheers!

Saranac Baby! Local beer!

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, my oldest son did his biochem phd at Cornell and I saw a lot of Saranac. And Ithaca.
They try hard

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

If data doesn't fit your predeveloped opinion, the data must be wrong!

 

[Jag75]

Well I for one really like this site. I find it loaded with great advice. One thing is for certain when it comes to this brew science section is how smart I ain't lol.

 

[bleme]

Being one to try to find a silver lining no matter what

I really like the silver lined bottle caps but they are so dang expensive!

 

[MaxStout]

I really like the silver lined bottle caps but they are so dang expensive!

I get a metallic taste from those.

 

[bleme]

I get a metallic taste from those.

That just means you don't have to use so much of those metallic flavored hops...

 

[MaxStout]

That just means you don't have to use so much of those metallic flavored hops...

Then that metallic taste will never leave...

 

[Die_Beerery]

I think the point missed here are the laws of partial pressures, specifically Ficks and Daltons laws. It's literally that simple (heh). Almost all mediums (get ready for head explosion) i.e. tap lines, co2 lines, keg gaskets, bottle caps succumb to this law. Now, some mediums are better than others (i.e. silicone is HORRIBLE), but nearly all have this issue.