German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

[Nick Poggetti]

So, I haven't really followed the above clone recipe's fermentation schedule... especially regarding Highland Park's super fast turnaround time for the beer, since I'm not in a rush to pump it out.

Been fermenting under pressure at 12 psi for a while now, diacetyl rest, dry hopped, etc. Today or tomorrow I'm going to crash it hard, add some gelatin and let it sit until probably next sunday before transferring to kegs.

My OG and FG were spot on, the sample was delicious but still needs some time, but I'm definitely looking forward to it. I'll give a review in a few weeks after I start pouring it.

 

[Nick Poggetti]

Follow up: This bad boy is pouring pretty clear and smelling incredible!

As noted above I didn't push to have this thing ready in 3 weeks.

The aroma is the biggest thing. It's one of the better and more in your face aroma beers I've made.

Disclaimer, I've only had cans of Timbo Pils delivered to northern california, and that was a year or two ago... so my memory is kinda fuzzy.

I do remember Timbo has a bit of bitterness to it. Mine has basically no perceived bitterness. Which... I'm not complaining, but I would like just a hair to help balance it. Regardless, it's still really delicious.

Maybe next time I try, I'd change the water profile more towards a west coast ipa kind of profile.

Here's my recipe, scaled up to 11 gallons. Remember that the recipe above has you dilute with cold water at flameout/whirlpool, so the recipe only shows it for 9 gallons.

All in all, great beer!

 

[dirty_martini]

Here’s my latest version of a Timbo style I didn’t follow their recipe as much as follow much of the guidelines for water profile, hopping rates, etc I used what I had on hand so instead of the 45/45 pils/2row with 10 carapils, I went 90 pils and 10 fawcett optic figured a splash of English malt would add some malt depth. For hops I used sterling throughout the boil but my dry hop was Bru-1 and Idaho7. Timbo called for 5oz mosaic to 2oz citra, but I went 4oz bru1 to 3oz idaho7.

The beer is solid. A little but of chill haze that goes away after a few minutes. Gotta admit I don’t love the dryhop. I was hoping the idaho7 would have enough pine and black tea notes to cut through the fruity/floral bru1, but it turned into a really delicate fruit salad. Bru1s pineapple is there, but when I opened the bag of idaho7 it was straight peach rings. So I ended up with a more sweet fruit character and less pungent citrus/pine/tropical combo. Makes for an interesting take on a lager though and a really nice base to try different hop combos.

 

[secretlevel]

Here’s my latest version of a Timbo style I didn’t follow their recipe as much as follow much of the guidelines for water profile, hopping rates, etc I used what I had on hand so instead of the 45/45 pils/2row with 10 carapils, I went 90 pils and 10 fawcett optic figured a splash of English malt would add some malt depth. For hops I used sterling throughout the boil but my dry hop was Bru-1 and Idaho7. Timbo called for 5oz mosaic to 2oz citra, but I went 4oz bru1 to 3oz idaho7.

The beer is solid. A little but of chill haze that goes away after a few minutes. Gotta admit I don’t love the dryhop. I was hoping the idaho7 would have enough pine and black tea notes to cut through the fruity/floral bru1, but it turned into a really delicate fruit salad. Bru1s pineapple is there, but when I opened the bag of idaho7 it was straight peach rings. So I ended up with a more sweet fruit character and less pungent citrus/pine/tropical combo. Makes for an interesting take on a lager though and a really nice base to try different hop combos.
View attachment 769997

That looks great! Idaho 7 is a pretty interesting hop. I had made a NEIPA with it that came out pretty dank, then again Mosaic probably had a role there too, but it was fruity at the same time. It probably depends on the Idaho 7 lot and year, also the time you use it... I used lots of Idaho 7 in whirlpool in addition to dry hop. It'd be a fun hop to explore on its own in a beer like this.

I think with time your beer will evolve and become more drinkable and the fruitiness will drop off as well. Just lager it until you're happy with it!

I just made a similar beer with all Amarillo and Amarillo cryo, will report back soon, it's only been in crashing for 2 weeks.

 

[dirty_martini]

That looks great! Idaho 7 is a pretty interesting hop. I had made a NEIPA with it that came out pretty dank, then again Mosaic probably had a role there too, but it was fruity at the same time. It probably depends on the Idaho 7 lot and year, also the time you use it... I used lots of Idaho 7 in whirlpool in addition to dry hop. It'd be a fun hop to explore on its own in a beer like this.

I think with time your beer will evolve and become more drinkable and the fruitiness will drop off as well. Just lager it until you're happy with it!

I just made a similar beer with all Amarillo and Amarillo cryo, will report back soon, it's only been in crashing for 2 weeks.

I’ve used Idaho 7 in a Pilsner previously and the black tea note blended nicely. In this case, I think the combo of bru1 and Idaho 7 brought out all the fruit…probably the combo of oils between the two. I think it would be a great NEIPA combo after having this. I think if using a hop like bru1 or el dorado which have a sweeter fruit expression in a lager or west coast ipa, a sharper hop like strata or chinook might be a better compliment (I avoid citra and mosaic at all costs. Great hops, but I only brew to make beers no one else is making. Enough great citra/mosaic beers out there already).

As for drinkable, it’s very drinkable now and I’m curious how it will evolve. But that’s why we play around with recipes like this. I’ll learned something I can use on my next brew.

 

[Brooothru]

This one is on the "To Brew" list, which just keeps getting longer! I'm going with the guidance of the brewer for ingredients with two small modifications: L-17 "Harvest" yeast, and adding Simcoe to the DH. Otherwise, shooting for all the ingredients and target numbers in the original Highland Park brew facts sheet. What I'm trying to replicate is what I think a 'West Coast Lager' is supposed to be: part Continental lager and part WCIPA. The kettle hops all mimic the Noble style, whereas the Dry Hops showcase the PAC Coast favs. I've heard of Mosaic, Simcoe and Citra referred to as the holy trinity of hops, and my experience has been that they do play nicely together.

BJCP has made allowances for a gazillion IPA styles. 'Bout time they expanded the boundaries for those of us who like lager AND hops. Category 34B for this one?

 

[dirty_martini]

This one is on the "To Brew" list, which just keeps getting longer! I'm going with the guidance of the brewer for ingredients with two small modifications: L-17 "Harvest" yeast, and adding Simcoe to the DH. Otherwise, shooting for all the ingredients and target numbers in the original Highland Park brew facts sheet. What I'm trying to replicate is what I think a 'West Coast Lager' is supposed to be: part Continental lager and part WCIPA. The kettle hops all mimic the Noble style, whereas the Dry Hops showcase the PAC Coast favs. I've heard of Mosaic, Simcoe and Citra referred to as the holy trinity of hops, and my experience has been that they do play nicely together.

BJCP has made allowances for a gazillion IPA styles. 'Bout time they expanded the boundaries for those of us who like lager AND hops. Category 34B for this one?

Continental lager base, WCIPA dry hop is exactly what this beer is.

 

[dirty_martini]

Latest attempt and my best so far. Followed the beer process to a T. Made changes based on hop and malt stock. Used 34/70 instead of my usual Augustiner (omega bayern) due to a laggy starter. Turned out fantastic. Huge hop character. Clean. Absolutely the best version of the beer I’ve made so far.l and it will probably be better in a week with a little more conditioning.
1.052
1.008
5.8% abv
40ibus

90% bestmalz pils
10% fawcett optic
1oz cascade 60, 30, whirlpool
Dry hop
5oz strata
2oz Idaho7
Ferment with 34/70.
Water 100:40 chloride:sulfate
3 days at 55. Raise to 65 to finish ferment and d-rest. Dry hop on day 6. Dry hopped for 6 days.

 

[secretlevel]

Latest attempt and my best so far. Followed the beer process to a T. Made changes based on hop and malt stock. Used 34/70 instead of my usual Augustiner (omega bayern) due to a laggy starter. Turned out fantastic. Huge hop character. Clean. Absolutely the best version of the beer I’ve made so far.l and it will probably be better in a week with a little more conditioning.
1.052
1.008
5.8% abv
40ibus

90% bestmalz pils
10% fawcett optic
1oz cascade 60, 30, whirlpool
Dry hop
5oz strata
2oz Idaho7
Ferment with 34/70.
Water 100:40 chloride:sulfate
3 days at 55. Raise to 65 to finish ferment and d-rest. Dry hop on day 6. Dry hopped for 6 days.

You always brew with Augustiner? Mad lad! It always has like a 3-4 day lag time for me. 34/70 def a little better for pilsners IMO as it finishes a little drier.

Gotta love that hop combo too! Interesting water profile, I usually go heavier on the sulfate to make it extra dry and crispy, I have yet to get there tho...

 

[Brooothru]

You always brew with Augustiner? Mad lad! It always has like a 3-4 day lag time for me. 34/70 def a little better for pilsners IMO as it finishes a little drier.

Gotta love that hop combo too! Interesting water profile, I usually go heavier on the sulfate to make it extra dry and crispy, I have yet to get there tho...

I thought I was the only one. Augustiner always seems to lag for me as well, even when I pitch copious amounts of krausening starter. Same issue with Andechs, but to a lesser extent. Yesterday I brewed a Pils (90% Floor Malted Pilsner, 10% carapils; Hallertau and Spalter Spalt hops) with 1500ml of krasening starter pitched at 48F with a free rise to 52F. Twenty-four hours later I finally have a steady stream of bubbles from the blow-off tube, although I did have limited weak signs of fermentation after about eight hours. I've been using Andechs more frequently, and like the way it ferments: a little slow to start, very well-behaved controlled fermentation, clean finish, drops clear without fining.

Finding Andechs can be a challenge, however. Augustiner is easier to find and produces some wonderful beers, but my experience has been that it's slow to start, becoming more vigorous after 3-4 days. Andechs, by comparison, seems to start slow but keeps slogging along to finish consistently around 1.009 FG without being finicky or bothersome. I like both yeasts, and Auggie has been my favored yeast for lagers, but Andechs is becoming my personal favorite for Continental lagers. WLP-835x (seasonal) is about the only show in town for Andechs, since Wyeast apparently isn't releasing its 2105-PC "Rocky Mountain Lager" (Coors) anymore. Bummer. It's a great yeast.

 

[dirty_martini]

You always brew with Augustiner? Mad lad! It always has like a 3-4 day lag time for me. 34/70 def a little better for pilsners IMO as it finishes a little drier.

Gotta love that hop combo too! Interesting water profile, I usually go heavier on the sulfate to make it extra dry and crispy, I have yet to get there tho...

I’ve never had more than a 24hr-ish lag time. If I don’t see activity the day after brewing, I always have the next morning. In this case, I had a starter on a stir plate and thought I had a dead yeast packet. Of course on day 4 after the brewday is finally showed, so it may have been a low viability pack. But I’m ready for my next brew.

As for Augustiner drying out, but always get my traditional Pilsners down to 1.008(2P) without issue and I love it’s flavor.

For water, this was the recommendation from the creator of Timbo. I was shocked by it. Pretty average sulfate for a lager, but not what I expected for a hoppy beer. And the chloride was much higher, but I can imagine it rounds out the bitterness a little so it isn’t too biting. I can’t complain with the results. It might be time to start looking at water profile differently than what we were taught in the past.

 

[secretlevel]

I thought I was the only one. Augustiner always seems to lag for me as well, even when I pitch copious amounts of krausening starter. Same issue with Andechs, but to a lesser extent. Yesterday I brewed a Pils (90% Floor Malted Pilsner, 10% carapils; Hallertau and Spalter Spalt hops) with 1500ml of krasening starter pitched at 48F with a free rise to 52F. Twenty-four hours later I finally have a steady stream of bubbles from the blow-off tube, although I did have limited weak signs of fermentation after about eight hours. I've been using Andechs more frequently, and like the way it ferments: a little slow to start, very well-behaved controlled fermentation, clean finish, drops clear without fining.

Finding Andechs can be a challenge, however. Augustiner is easier to find and produces some wonderful beers, but my experience has been that it's slow to start, becoming more vigorous after 3-4 days. Andechs, by comparison, seems to start slow but keeps slogging along to finish consistently around 1.009 FG without being finicky or bothersome. I like both yeasts, and Auggie has been my favored yeast for lagers, but Andechs is becoming my personal favorite for Continental lagers. WLP-835x (seasonal) is about the only show in town for Andechs, since Wyeast apparently isn't releasing its 2105-PC "Rocky Mountain Lager" (Coors) anymore. Bummer. It's a great yeast.

That's awesome, I just did my first Andechs beer since Imperial released a seasonal strain of it called Pilgrimage. I didn't realize it was available as WLP or Wyeast before, not that I can get either of those by me haha. It kicked off pretty quick, especially with a fresh pack, but it fermented for a solid 9 days before D-rest! I saved some slurry so I'll have to try it in the next pilsner

 

[Brooothru]

That's awesome, I just did my first Andechs beer since Imperial released a seasonal strain of it called Pilgrimage. I didn't realize it was available as WLP or Wyeast before, not that I can get either of those by me haha. It kicked off pretty quick, especially with a fresh pack, but it fermented for a solid 9 days before D-rest! I saved some slurry so I'll have to try it in the next pilsner

I just bought a packet of "Pilgrimage" last week but have yet to use it. I thought it was a blend of several different yeasts, though it's hard to find much info about it. Plus, like WLP-835x, it's a seasonal release rather than a year-round offering.

If it is indeed Andechs, that's great news. I'm becoming a real fan of Imperial yeasts but my LHBS doesn't carry their products. I have to drive about an hour each way to get some since I don't trust yeast shipped in summer months (or winter either, for that matter).

Since I don't have any immediate plans for the Pilgrimage, I plan to make an overbuilt starter, freeze 3-4 samples of slurry and keep refreshing the 'best by' date of the refrigerator sample every few months to keep it viable.

Keep us posted on your experiences using the Pilgrimage. It sure has raised my interest.

 

[secretlevel]

I just bought a packet of "Pilgrimage" last week but have yet to use it. I thought it was a blend of several different yeasts, though it's hard to find much info about it. Plus, like WLP-835x, it's a seasonal release rather than a year-round offering.

If it is indeed Andechs, that's great news. I'm becoming a real fan of Imperial yeasts but my LHBS doesn't carry their products. I have to drive about an hour each way to get some since I don't trust yeast shipped in summer months (or winter either, for that matter).

Since I don't have any immediate plans for the Pilgrimage, I plan to make an overbuilt starter, freeze 3-4 samples of slurry and keep refreshing the 'best by' date of the refrigerator sample every few months to keep it viable.

Keep us posted on your experiences using the Pilgrimage. It sure has raised my interest.

They confirmed it in a comment on Instagram:
"It has German (Andechs) roots".
I tasted my first beer with it yesterday (corn lager with bloody butcher corn) and it was damn nice. Very clean with a nice flavor that reminds me of 34/70 minus the sulfur.

 

[secretlevel]

Ok, enough sidelining and discussing recipes, I haven't actually posted a beer to this thread since I joined it. So without further ado, here's my contribution.

40 IBU Amarillo
WP 2oz Amarillo Cryo
DH 2oz Amarillo Cryo
2oz Amarillo T90

Tastes pretty juicy and orangey with a nice dry finish. Citrus fruit all around with not much dank or floral note, although I can pick up some lemon/lime as well. I wish my 34/70 got a little further down below 1.010, but it's a nice summer crusher regardless.

Yes, not exactly a Timbo clone with Citra/Mosaic, but a west coast pilsner nonetheless

 

[deadwolfbones]

Brewed another Timbo clone today based on the recipe posted on the previous page. Gonna do an El Dorado/Sultana DH, I think.

 

[Nick Poggetti]

My timbo clone from above, 4 months ago is still on tap. I'd guess I have maybe 2 gallons left. The citra and mosaic still overwhelms me when I start pouring a pint... The aroma still slaps me in the face as soon as the glass starts filling.

 

[secretlevel]

Follow up: This bad boy is pouring pretty clear and smelling incredible!

As noted above I didn't push to have this thing ready in 3 weeks.

The aroma is the biggest thing. It's one of the better and more in your face aroma beers I've made.

Disclaimer, I've only had cans of Timbo Pils delivered to northern california, and that was a year or two ago... so my memory is kinda fuzzy.

I do remember Timbo has a bit of bitterness to it. Mine has basically no perceived bitterness. Which... I'm not complaining, but I would like just a hair to help balance it. Regardless, it's still really delicious.

Maybe next time I try, I'd change the water profile more towards a west coast ipa kind of profile.

Here's my recipe, scaled up to 11 gallons. Remember that the recipe above has you dilute with cold water at flameout/whirlpool, so the recipe only shows it for 9 gallons.

All in all, great beer!


View attachment 763829

Looking back to your post, I ran into the same mouthfeel/bitterness situation. Even though I went with 40:70 Cl:SO4, the mouthfeel is still relatively full and the beer never got as sharp or dry as Timbo. Has anyone else had good results replicating the mouthfeel and dryness of Timbo?

 

[deadwolfbones]

Since the recipe on the previous page doesn't specify, what temp are y'all dry hopping at? And are you doing staggered additions or one big DH?

 

[dirty_martini]

Since the recipe on the previous page doesn't specify, what temp are y'all dry hopping at? And are you doing staggered additions or one big DH?

For Timbo, they dry hop partially on day 6, then add the rest of day 7. They dry hop at their D-rest temp, so 65F/18C for 6 days

 

[dirty_martini]

Looking back to your post, I ran into the same mouthfeel/bitterness situation. Even though I went with 40:70 Cl:SO4, the mouthfeel is still relatively full and the beer never got as sharp or dry as Timbo. Has anyone else had good results replicating the mouthfeel and dryness of Timbo?

Timbo is actually closer to 100:40 cl:so4 according to the brewer

 

[dirty_martini]

Brewed another Timbo clone today based on the recipe posted on the previous page. Gonna do an El Dorado/Sultana DH, I think.

What will you ratio be? Sticking with the 5/2 of Timbo?

My brewery has a west coast that is dry hopped 2/1 sultana/mosaic and it crushes. I’ve never understood why sultana/Denali never became more popular. It’s a great hop

 

[deadwolfbones]

Good to know! And yeah, I saw that they split the DH, I was just wondering what y'all do. I'm keg fermenting and I'd prefer to open it as little as possible/do as few transfers as possible, so I'm thinking one addition.

Re: the Sultana, I was going to do roughly 2:1 El D to Sultana, mostly because the El Dorado is a known quantity for me. 80g El Dorado and 40g Sultana in a 4 gallon batch.

 

[dirty_martini]

Good to know! And yeah, I saw that they split the DH, I was just wondering what y'all do. I'm keg fermenting and I'd prefer to open it as little as possible/do as few transfers as possible, so I'm thinking one addition.

Re: the Sultana, I was going to do roughly 2:1 El D to Sultana, mostly because the El Dorado is a known quantity for me. 80g El Dorado and 40g Sultana in a 4 gallon batch.

Sultana is nice. Pine and pineapple bomb. The pine should help cut through the sweet fruit of the el dorado.

For my DH, I do it all at once. I rigged a closed transfer system for my plastic fermenter, so I hook that up when I open it for dry hop. One addition. Purge with co2. Give the fermenter a soft swirl every 2 days to ensure full contact. Crash on day 5 to transfer to keg on day 6.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Sultana is nice. Pine and pineapple bomb. The pine should help cut through the sweet fruit of the el dorado.

For my DH, I do it all at once. I rigged a closed transfer system for my plastic fermenter, so I hook that up when I open it for dry hop. One addition. Purge with co2. Give the fermenter a soft swirl every 2 days to ensure full contact. Crash on day 5 to transfer to keg on day 6.

I've had weird issues with post-DH harsh bitterness lately and it's kinda doing my head in. The only thing I've done differently lately was to swirl kegs during the DH, so I think I might avoid it this time and see if it makes any difference. I can't imagine it will—it's probably a water chem issue or something—but we'll see.

 

[secretlevel]

Timbo is actually closer to 100:40 cl:so4 according to the brewer

I think I'm figuring some things out. Since I used Amarillo, my beer was pretty soft as it has low co-humulone (21-24%). Some of the traditional German hops and classic American bittering hops are much higher in this property, which really adds that bittering "bite". While IBUs are based on AA% right now, they should also be taking co-humulone into account. Columbus is a better bittering hop (28-35%), as is Apollo (24-28%).

German varieties that Highland park use are Saphir (12-17%), and Sterling (21-28%!) are used in higher amounts than the Amarillo I used, so I think they'll provide more co-humulone and thus more bitteriness. At least that's my theory. Will report back.

 

[secretlevel]

I've had weird issues with post-DH harsh bitterness lately and it's kinda doing my head in. The only thing I've done differently lately was to swirl kegs during the DH, so I think I might avoid it this time and see if it makes any difference. I can't imagine it will—it's probably a water chem issue or something—but we'll see.

Sounds like a case of hop burn, my friend. If you're already hopping in a cold keg, you're doing as much as you can to prevent it, it's just a lot of hops for a beer, but it'll mellow with time.

 

[dirty_martini]

I think I'm figuring some things out. Since I used Amarillo, my beer was pretty soft as it has low co-humulone (21-24%). Some of the traditional German hops and classic American bittering hops are much higher in this property, which really adds that bittering "bite". While IBUs are based on AA% right now, they should also be taking co-humulone into account. Columbus is a better bittering hop (28-35%), as is Apollo (24-28%).

German varieties that Highland park use are Saphir (12-17%), and Sterling (21-28%!) are used in higher amounts than the Amarillo I used, so I think they'll provide more co-humulone and thus more bitteriness. At least that's my theory. Will report back.

There’s absolutely a difference in the “type” of bitterness. It’s not purely a IBU factor.

A recent craftbeer and brewing podcast with the headbrewer from Slice talked about west coast IPA and how if he used classic C hood, his bittering rate was closer to 40ish IBUs, while with more modern fruitier hops, he was higher at 50-60. The classic hop bitterness was a bit sharper and more aggressive, even at lower IBUs.

My last batch, I used cascade in the boil because I was out of my lager hops, and there’s a more resiny bitterness. Generally, my preference is to use a classic bittering hop for the first 20IBU addition. I love summit, but warrior or magnum would be good choices. Plus, you generally only need about .25oz/7g. Then later in the boil use the “lager” hops. Sterling is like a more citrusy saaz, saphir is super delicate and floral. Pinthouse brewing here in Texas which won a GABF silver for their version of Timbo has been using hallertau Blanc for their book additions. I really think any classic lager hops or their American derivatives like mt hood, liberty, vanguard, etc would work. It could also be a way to use some of the modern German varieties like Blanc, Huell melon, mandarina, or Callista to have a blend of classic lager character with modern flavors that will work well with the big ipa dry hop. And with using those in the 30min and whirlpool, you’re getting a more delicate, finer bitterness addition.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Sounds like a case of hop burn, my friend. If you're already hopping in a cold keg, you're doing as much as you can to prevent it, it's just a lot of hops for a beer, but it'll mellow with time.

It's significantly less hops than I've used in other beers that didn't have the same issue. Could be varietal-specific, I suppose, as @dirty_martini suggests. But I also feel like it's not just hop burn—I know what that tastes like, and this is something else as well.

 

[deadwolfbones]

(Specifically, it's what I'd call an aspirin-like bitterness in the mid-palate.)

 

[Nick Poggetti]

I think I'm figuring some things out. Since I used Amarillo, my beer was pretty soft as it has low co-humulone (21-24%). Some of the traditional German hops and classic American bittering hops are much higher in this property, which really adds that bittering "bite". While IBUs are based on AA% right now, they should also be taking co-humulone into account. Columbus is a better bittering hop (28-35%), as is Apollo (24-28%).

German varieties that Highland park use are Saphir (12-17%), and Sterling (21-28%!) are used in higher amounts than the Amarillo I used, so I think they'll provide more co-humulone and thus more bitteriness. At least that's my theory. Will report back.

This is pretty interesting. On a similar topic but different style, I've found in my west coast IPAs that getting my 70-100 ibus in the hotside from CTZ, Cascade, Centennial give the best results when paired with the new school hops.

 

[Brooothru]

There’s absolutely a difference in the “type” of bitterness. It’s not purely a IBU factor.

A recent craftbeer and brewing podcast with the headbrewer from Slice talked about west coast IPA and how if he used classic C hood, his bittering rate was closer to 40ish IBUs, while with more modern fruitier hops, he was higher at 50-60. The classic hop bitterness was a bit sharper and more aggressive, even at lower IBUs.

My last batch, I used cascade in the boil because I was out of my lager hops, and there’s a more resiny bitterness. Generally, my preference is to use a classic bittering hop for the first 20IBU addition. I love summit, but warrior or magnum would be good choices. Plus, you generally only need about .25oz/7g. Then later in the boil use the “lager” hops. Sterling is like a more citrusy saaz, saphir is super delicate and floral. Pinthouse brewing here in Texas which won a GABF silver for their version of Timbo has been using hallertau Blanc for their book additions. I really think any classic lager hops or their American derivatives like mt hood, liberty, vanguard, etc would work. It could also be a way to use some of the modern German varieties like Blanc, Huell melon, mandarina, or Callista to have a blend of classic lager character with modern flavors that will work well with the big ipa dry hop. And with using those in the 30min and whirlpool, you’re getting a more delicate, finer bitterness addition.

Good insight. I can't help but believe there's a lot more to "perceived bitterness" and total IBUs then is generally recognized. Co-humulone percentages may indeed be the key to understanding hop burn/hop creep, as well as perceived bitterness.

Also, two thumbs up on Summit, Magnum or Warrior as go-to bittering hops. All do a great job in very low usage amounts. Hallertau Magnum is my first choice for all my Continental lagers, and also works great for early additions in just about any New World/North American ales.

 

[fuzzybee]

I was thinking of brewing this with Barke Pilsner and just Centennial hops. Has anybody tried this?

 

[dirty_martini]

I was thinking of brewing this with Barke Pilsner and just Centennial hops. Has anybody tried this?

I haven’t, but I’ve had cascade and centennial Pilsners in the past. I did a batch with cascade as my boil hops since I was out of my classic lager hops and the bitterness was much more resiny. Based on that, I would just back down on the IBUs a bit to around 30 and I think it will be great.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

I was thinking of brewing this with Barke Pilsner and just Centennial hops. Has anybody tried this?

Have not tried, but can say that I tasted Bell's Cold Hearted a cold IPA they released in a mixed box last winter/spring. No idea on the actual recipe but it was pretty clearly a centennial beer which worked very nicely on a crisp, lagerish background. Your idea sound good to me. If I were you though, it would be awful tempting to add a pinch of galaxy in the dry hop like in light hearted unless you are certain you have high-quality centennial.

 

[fuzzybee]

Have not tried, but can say that I tasted Bell's Cold Hearted a cold IPA they released in a mixed box last winter/spring. No idea on the actual recipe but it was pretty clearly a centennial beer which worked very nicely on a crisp, lagerish background. Your idea sound good to me. If I were you though, it would be awful tempting to add a pinch of galaxy in the dry hop like in light hearted unless you are certain you have high-quality centennial.

Thanks! I don't have any Galaxy, but I do have Sabro, Helga, Columbus, and Citra. Which do y'all think would work best with the Centennial?

 

[deadwolfbones]

Centennial + Citra is real nice.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I entered my latest attempt at this (Sultana + El Dorado) into a local pro-am competition and it advanced to the selection round but ultimately wasn't chosen to be brewed by a pro brewery. It was the best-rated of the three entries I submitted, but my much worse-rated altbier (which I agree wasn't great) got chosen by Deschutes, lol.

Anyway, I think it's great. Will def be making it again and experimenting with more DH combos.

 

[Andre3000]

What's everyone's preferred yeast? I've been doing a ton of split batch pilsners with various Escarpment vs diamond and W34/70 and every time liquid yeast beats dry hands down in my opinion, though, I'd give w34/70 the edge over diamond.

I want to give this recipe a go again now that I've really ironed out my pilsner attenuation issues.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I've only used 34/70 (2x packets in 4.5 gals, usually).