New England IPA Blasphemy - No Boil NEIPA

[Steven Barrett]

@deadwolfbones I read your blog and had a very similar experience, with the hop aroma flooding my entire house. I was thinking if our goal is to include this aroma in our beer, maybe there is a way to keep that from escaping. My thoughts are either a balloon over the airlock or fermenting in a keg.

 

[Shenanigans]

On the subject of NEIPAs, one of the local breweries in Chicago that's making outstanding haze-bombs (Noon Whistle) told me they use 15 lb/bbl hop rates, which by my math equates to 28 oz of hops in a 5 gal batch. Any takers?

I think on a commercial scale they have much poorer hop utilization.

Also there is a saturation limit on dry hopping and whirlpooling where you are just not getting any significant extra flavor or aroma no matter how much more hops you add. I have no scientific evidence to back this up but just from reading on here I think somewhere between 15 and 20oz in a 5 gallon batch you will hit that saturation point. Then you are just wasting hops and also beer through adsorption. For me personally 10 to 15 oz is more than enough. I'd normally be around 12oz for an NEIPA.

 

[user 263363]

I think on a commercial scale they have much poorer hop utilization.

Also there is a saturation limit on dry hopping and whirlpooling where you are just not getting any significant extra flavor or aroma no matter how much more hops you add. I have no scientific evidence to back this up but just from reading on here I think somewhere between 15 and 20oz in a 5 gallon batch you will hit that saturation point. Then you are just wasting hops and also beer through adsorption. For me personally 10 to 15 oz is more than enough. I'd normally be around 12oz for an NEIPA.

I don’t know if I’d call it scientific, but Brülosophy did an exBEERiment on this. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns with hop utilization when dry hopping.

http://brulosophy.com/2019/06/24/investigating-the-dry-hop-saturation-point-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Dgallo]

I think on a commercial scale they have much poorer hop utilization.
.

They actually have greater hop utilization. Extraction increases as surface area increases, so with greater volumes they will also have greater surface area. The only possibility where they could have worse utilization is if they don’t break up their dh additions and toss them in all at once. Then there is the possibility that a portion of their dh addition will drop into the conical and lower the surface area. But at that point they would just hit it with some co2 to agitate them back into suspension.

I’m with you about the 15lb/barrel though. That’s absolutely absurd. That’s not 28oz for a 5 gallon that’s closer too 38 oz for a 5 gallon batch lol (15lb x 16oz per lb DIVIDED by 31 gallon per barrel X 5 gallons ). Total waste of hops and the small local brewery doing that will blow their balls and be closed very soon unless people are willing to pay $10 a pint or more.

 

[Steven Barrett]

They’re actually doing really well. Been open for 4 years and are expanding their production to a new facility. Also, I may have been mistaken, he may have said 12 not 15 lb/bbl.

 

[Dgallo]

I don’t know if I’d call it scientific, but Brülosophy did an exBEERiment on this. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns with hop utilization when dry hopping.

http://brulosophy.com/2019/06/24/investigating-the-dry-hop-saturation-point-exbeeriment-results/

Shellhammer did do a scientific experiment with dryhopping rate and found deminished returns of dryhop rates exceeding 1.5-2 ounces per gallon. Granted this was specifically using cascade. If I can find the study again I’ll post it.

 

[Dgallo]

They’re actually doing really well. Been open for 4 years and are expanding their production to a new facility. Also, I may have been mistaken, he may have said 12 not 15 lb/bbl.

I would bet it’s actually closer to the 4-8 lb/bbl range for total hopping . Our best breweries for this style, Hill farmstead, Trillium, Treehouse, Bissel Brothers, Otherhalf, and etc are in that range.

 

[Dgallo]

I don’t know if I’d call it scientific, but Brülosophy did an exBEERiment on this. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns with hop utilization when dry hopping.

http://brulosophy.com/2019/06/24/investigating-the-dry-hop-saturation-point-exbeeriment-results/

Here it is. If you’re good with conversions it’s easy to follow https://www.craftbrewersconference....hopping-Beer-Achieving-Consistent-Flavor1.pdf

 

[user 263363]

Here it is. If you’re good with conversions it’s easy to follow https://www.craftbrewersconference....hopping-Beer-Achieving-Consistent-Flavor1.pdf

Good reading. It’s interesting to see the actual science behind it. Thanks for the link!

 

[Steven Barrett]

So I am not going to cold crash after last attempt didn’t go so well but for the rest of you that didn’t cold crash, I’m wondering if the hop matter has stayed floating on the surface or did it settle to the bottom.

 

[Dgallo]

So I am not going to cold crash after last attempt didn’t go so well but for the rest of you that didn’t cold crash, I’m wondering if the hop matter has stayed floating on the surface or did it settle to the bottom.

They will drop but it may take agitation and time. Do you have a place in the house that is like 55-60 this time of year? If so that should be cool enough to help the process. Just make sure you seal off the airlock. It’s cold enough for the negative pressure or suckback to occur but it won’t be strong enough to harm the fermenter

 

[Steven Barrett]

I have a kegerator. Been fermenting at 62, so I can drop temp no problem. Question 1, how can I seal a glass carboy? Question 2, if I did and created a carboy pressure negative to atmospheric - I think I just answered my question, raise the temp and neutralize the pressure. But still, I have a bung with a hole and an airlock, how do I seal it?

 

[cmac62]

try some tape.

 

[Dgallo]

If you have a kegatator just hook up your gas line to your airlock at 1-2 psi and cold crash the thing. If it doesn’t fit stolidly use a sterilized ziplock bag. Stick the bottom of your airlock in the corners of the bag and carefully place it in your bung so you don’t rip the bag. That should seal it

 

[Golyo]

Here it is. If you’re good with conversions it’s easy to follow https://www.craftbrewersconference....hopping-Beer-Achieving-Consistent-Flavor1.pdf

87-95°C (189-203°F) is higher than what I use when adding whirlpool hops. I thought 80°C (176°F) is the recommended temperature for that.

 

[Dgallo]

Hoping someone can answer this quickly since my brains not working this morning or maybe I’m just over thinking it. I’ve never adjusted water using extract(I’m an All-grain brewer). Using Bru’n Water would I just set my water volume as my preboil, since I’m not boiling. Then calculate the adjustments as an allgrain beer and add both the mash and sparge adjustment additions together in my extract wort so I hit my desired ppms?

 

[Dgallo]

87-95°C (189-203°F) is higher than what I use when adding whirlpool hops. I thought 80°C (176°F) is the recommended temperature for that.

It’s just a reference point for the study. Shellhammer talks about flame out additions often.

There is no “right” temp for your whirlpool additions. Scott Janish suggest from 200-185*f and others say low end 160-150*f. Just find what works for you. If your doing a no boil, using a higher end addition will help you pick up some ibus, which are needed. I personally have two additions, my earthier/danker hops I add at higher temps like 180*f and my fruitier more delicate hops I’ll add at 150*f

 

[GnenieGone]

So I am not going to cold crash after last attempt didn’t go so well but for the rest of you that didn’t cold crash, I’m wondering if the hop matter has stayed floating on the surface or did it settle to the bottom.

I'm late to the show but a Fermentasaurous with the keg adaptors and a pressure relief valve (spunding?) allows the vessel to pressurize with CO2 to what ever you want. 6psi was my latest. You can cold crash as much as you want then. The adaptor allows a zero o2 transfer to another keg via CO2 pressure.

 

[Steven Barrett]

Hoping someone can answer this quickly since my brains not working this morning or maybe I’m just over thinking it. I’ve never adjusted water using extract(I’m an All-grain brewer). Using Bru’n Water would I just set my water volume as my preboil, since I’m not boiling. Then calculate the adjustments as an allgrain beer and add both the mash and sparge adjustment additions together in my extract wort so I hit my desired ppms?

I’m sure you could use Bru’n Water but it would be easier just to determine the desired milligrams of minerals by multiplying the desired water profile by the volume of your batch (in L), then multiply your actual water profile mineral concentrations by the volume and the delta is how many minerals you should add.

 

[Steven Barrett]

Update: I did not cold crash and although the yeast settled on the bottom it was hop soup. Because I want a short dry hopping period, I kegged it anyway. While it was rough going initially, I was able to keep most of the hop material out of the keg.

For those that did not cold crash, how did you do it? Hop socks or some other method? I tossed them in loose and after 7 days, the hop matter was still mostly floating along the surface. Did the hop material eventually settle after a few weeks?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Update: I did not cold crash and although the yeast settled on the bottom it was hop soup. Because I want a short dry hopping period, I kegged it anyway. While it was rough going initially, I was able to keep most of the hop material out of the keg.

For those that did not cold crash, how did you do it? Hop socks or some other method? I tossed them in loose and after 7 days, the hop matter was still mostly floating along the surface. Did the hop material eventually settle after a few weeks?

When I used to ferment in carboys and not cold crash, what I'd do is put a mesh hop bag around my auto-siphon. I had an issue where the siphon would suck in the bag and clog with that so I would put one of those big black paper clips on the end of the siphon and that would keep the bag away from the tip. Still had issues sometimes but it worked decently for me. I ferment in kegs now and cold crash before closed CO2 transfers and everything goes much smoother.

 

[Steven Barrett]

When I used to ferment in carboys and not cold crash, what I'd do is put a mesh hop bag around my auto-siphon. I had an issue where the siphon would suck in the bag and clog with that so I would put one of those big black paper clips on the end of the siphon and that would keep the bag away from the tip. Still had issues sometimes but it worked decently for me. I ferment in kegs now and cold crash before closed CO2 transfers and everything goes much smoother.

I too have used the bag method but I think it lends itself to oxidation because it is pulling through tiny holes and potentially creating turbulence. That would worry me for a NEIPA which is apparently super sensitive to oxidation.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I too have used the bag method but I think it lends itself to oxidation because it is pulling through tiny holes and potentially creating turbulence. That would worry me for a NEIPA which is apparently super sensitive to oxidation.

Well I should clarify. I probably shouldn't have said auto-siphon in my previous post. What I did was closed transfers to a purged keg with that method, using the stainless steel siphon through the orange carboy top with CO2 hooked up to it. My keg poppet would clog without a filter. I still think that method is better than transferring to an open keg or bucket without a filter, especially using the cheap pump style siphon(big time oxidation risk)

 

[Steven Barrett]

No Boil NEIPA

• Steven Barrett
• Jul 21, 2019

Well after disassembling the liquid post twice due to hop blockage, it finally pours. Definitely closer to the style now. Little bit of hop burn. Sounds like that should fade.

Thanks for the help, internet. Second batch was much more successful than the first.

 

[tellyho]

Brewed this with Kveik, sans Campden. Didn't ramp up to crazy temperature, so took a week instead of a couple days. [emoji23]. Dry hopped with 6 oz. Pacifica and Calypso in bag(upped quantities to compensate). Will add 4oz in keg and report back. Right now, it's a pretty tasty fruit bomb from my gravity sample. A little on the hot side, might need to age some.

 

[tellyho]

Whoo! I think if/when I rebrew, I'll reduce or omit the sugar. It's very boozy right now, and a little more astringent than I'd prefer. I might choose a less attenuative yeast than kveik as well.

It's going to be sitting in the keg on 4oz hops at room temp to mellow out some more.

 

[tellyho]

I'm using the Scot Janish / Utah biodiesel dry hop setup for the keg. I drilled out a #6 stopper to fit my diptube. So far, so good.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

Did an all grain variation of no boil, some extra hops, kegged after 3 days and it came out excellent. Very surprised.

 

[Bklyn]

Just tried this as a way to have an ultra-fast "brew day" in 93 degree heat. Getting all of the sugars dissolved isn't easy, and according to my Tilt I didn't finish the job (it is reading OG 1.056). I'm pretty sure the yeast will take care of whatever is not in solution, plus I can give the fermenter a few good swirls if need be.

Planning to hop this with Azacca and Strata and will report back in a couple of weeks when I've tasted it. Thanks to @BRGriffith for the easy recipe!

 

[terrenum]

Brewed a lighter version @ 5% alc. last Saturday. Transferred to keg and bottled a dozen tonight. Hard to estimate the amount of CO2 trapped in the beer after only 1 week of fermentation. So I primed at 2.2 volume... I am guessing I may end up closer to 2.7...

I did cut back on the dry hop. 1oz of each and I added after 30 hours in primary since a lighter version.
Smelled really good at bottling. Very juicy. Definitely green but I guess it's part of the style.First time I try a raw beer. interesting flavour of malt. you can tell it's raw; there is a cereal, raw wheat that is definitely present. Similar to when you taste grain before mashing... Can't wait to try it carbonated.
Not as good as a full All-grain batch at this point but very decent for the amount of time I spent.
I pasteurized at 165 for approx. 30 minutes. Added 1oz of each hop in the kettle. Have been very careful with transfer and purged with CO2. Fermented with Escarpment Lab Foggy London yeast. Finished at 1.009 and 5% alc./vol.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Dgallo]

Brewed a lighter version @ 5% alc. last Saturday. Transferred to keg and bottled a dozen tonight. Hard to estimate the amount of CO2 trapped in the beer after only 1 week of fermentation. So I primed at 2.2 volume... I am guessing I may end up closer to 2.7...

I did cut back on the dry hop. 1oz of each and I added after 30 hours in primary since a lighter version.
Smelled really good at bottling. Very juicy. Definitely green but I guess it's part of the style.First time I try a raw beer. interesting flavour of malt. you can tell it's raw; there is a cereal, raw wheat that is definitely present. Similar to when you taste grain before mashing... Can't wait to try it carbonated.
Not as good as a full All-grain batch at this point but very decent for the amount of time I spent.
I pasteurized at 165 for approx. 30 minutes. Added 1oz of each hop in the kettle. Have been very careful with transfer and purged with CO2. Fermented with Escarpment Lab Foggy London yeast. Finished at 1.009 and 5% alc./vol.

Thanks for sharing.

How long did it sit at 1.009 before you packaged it. 7 days seems a little quick for London Fog. If it was kviek I wouldn’t even bother To question

 

[terrenum]

How long did it sit at 1.009 before you packaged it. 7 days seems a little quick for London Fog. If it was kviek I wouldn’t even bother To question

Didn’t keep track of the gravity every day. I assumed it was pretty much done since it represent 79% attenuation which is good for that strain. I must admit it is the first time i brew with DME so not sure the FG I can expect.
May have created some bombs...

 

[Dgallo]

Didn’t keep track of the gravity every day. I assumed it was pretty much done since it represent 79% attenuation which is good for that strain. I must admit it is the first time i brew with DME so not sure the FG I can expect.
May have created some bombs...

Possibly but 70% with dme is prob good. I like to let it sit at fg for at least 48 just to ensure but you’re most likely fine

 

[Bklyn]

Just recently brewed a batch of this magic. I hopped it with Strata + Azacca. OG 1.072 and finished at 1.009. I let it sit for a few days to be sure FG had been reached since it is hard to get all those sugars into solution without any heat. I kegged this yesterday, burst carbonated it at 40 PSI and tasted it today, 24+ hours later. Given the amount of effort I had to put into the "brew day" (nearly none) this is a very good recipe!

 

[tellyho]

Just tried this as a way to have an ultra-fast "brew day" in 93 degree heat. Getting all of the sugars dissolved isn't easy, and according to my Tilt I didn't finish the job (it is reading OG 1.056). I'm pretty sure the yeast will take care of whatever is not in solution, plus I can give the fermenter a few good swirls if need be.

Planning to hop this with Azacca and Strata and will report back in a couple of weeks when I've tasted it. Thanks to @BRGriffith for the easy recipe!

I did not bother trying to dissolve. Dump and go!

 

[Jamesrs59]

My Home Brew Shop doesn’t stock DME, but I can get LME which is 30% barley 70% wheat. How do you think that would work? Worth a shot? Obviously I would need to increase the amount of liquid malt vs dry. Also I can’t keg currently, is this worth trying if bottling.

Cheers

 

[Dgallo]

My Home Brew Shop doesn’t stock DME, but I can get LME which is 30% barley 70% wheat. How do you think that would work? Worth a shot? Obviously I would need to increase the amount of liquid malt vs dry. Also I can’t keg currently, is this worth trying if bottling.

Cheers

That’s a large wheat percentage, what brand lme?

 

[user 263363]

My Home Brew Shop doesn’t stock DME, but I can get LME which is 30% barley 70% wheat. How do you think that would work? Worth a shot? Obviously I would need to increase the amount of liquid malt vs dry. Also I can’t keg currently, is this worth trying if bottling.

Cheers

I can’t answer your LME question, but I did see a post on Reddit awhile back about a guy who swore his process allowed for successful bottling of NEIPA.

I unfortunately did not save the post, but it was basically bottling straight from the fermenter in to bottles with carb drops so that a bottling bucket is not needed.

Obviously, most things on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt but I plan to try this technique on a gallon batch of this no boil recipe.

 

[Jamesrs59]

That’s a large wheat percentage, what brand lme?

It’s coopers brand - here is a link


https://www.diybeer.com/au/thomas-coopers-wheat-malt-extract.html

 

[Jamesrs59]

I can’t answer your LME question, but I did see a post on Reddit awhile back about a guy who swore his process allowed for successful bottling of NEIPA.

I unfortunately did not save the post, but it was basically bottling straight from the fermenter in to bottles with carb drops so that a bottling bucket is not needed.

Obviously, most things on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt but I plan to try this technique on a gallon batch of this no boil recipe.

I bottle directly from the FV, through a direct link to the tap extension which drops it straight to the bottle of the bottle. Freshly sanitised and rinsed of coarse