BIAB Basket sits too high... how to retain heat?

[Chris7687]

Hey guys,
So my thread name describes my problem. I made a custom kettle with a Bayou Classic 20.5 gallon kettle, installed a ball valve and sight glass (electric element to come), and have put feet on the basket to give it clearance. The problem I have is the basket now sits above the top of the kettle, which now is giving me a problem of keeping the heat enclosed during the mash. I have a temporary fix of wrapping the space between the lid and the top of the kettle with tinfoil and then wrapping a fleece blanket around that, but I am looking for a permanent fix. I am open to any and all solutions. I can't not use the basket as 1) I will have an element in there soon so I can't have the voile bag with a 25lb grain bill sitting directly on the element and 2) I paid $$ for the basket, so I need to use it! Thanks in advance for any suggestions. I don't have pictures currently, but if I need them to explain it better please let me know.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[wilserbrewer]

Sell the basket on eBay.

 

[Chris7687]

Sell the basket on eBay.

And how to resolve the issue of the 25+ lb grain bag on top of the element?

 

[johns]

How many inches of clearance do you have between the bottom of the basket and the bottom of the kettle?

I think the kettle and the basket must have several inches of clearance new. Am I right? DO you have any pictures?

 

[wilserbrewer]

And how to resolve the issue of the 25+ lb grain bag on top of the element?

The grain and bag flow around the element and do not sit or push down on the element. More like a fluid. The bag should be oversized to allow this. It is not like 25 lbs sitting on the element at all, the grain and water combine to make a slurry that flows where it wants...not like a solid that sits heavy on the element. Also the grain has bouyancy...and weighs very little while submerged due to the water it has displaced...cheers!

 

[Epimetheus]

I have seen some elements with shields around them, either solid or punched full of holes. The elements were straight.

 

[johns]

Stainless Steel Stock Pot: 18.75 D x 17 H
Stainless: 0.8 mm / 20 Gauge
Full Size Perforated Boiling Basket
Vented Lid
Perforated stainless steel basket – 17.5 D x 13.25 H
Basket stainless steel – 0.6 mm / 22 gauge
There should be more then enough room. 17 inches hight minus 13.25 is less tehn 4 inches and should be more then enough room for your attachments. Maybe take off the feet and everything should fit swimmingly.

 

[Chris7687]

Hey guys,
Here are some pictures.

 

[johns]

I would say that the feet for the basket are too long for the kettle. How long are the feet? Can we see a picture of the feet with the tape measure?

 

[Chris7687]

I will put a picture of the feet up tonight. After re-reading wislerbrewer, the grain bouancy makes sense, but still would require some type of shielding from the bag as I am going to leave the element on during mashing with a recirculating pump to properly distribute the mash temp among the grain bed.

 

[wyzazz]

If you are recirculating and firing the element (say using a PID) to maintain temps then why are you worried about retaining heat? Your PID and Element will keep the heat where it needs to be.

 

[Chris7687]

If you are recirculating and firing the element (say using a PID) to maintain temps then why are you worried about retaining heat? Your PID and Element will keep the heat where it needs to be.

Don't want the heat escaping to fast, which would force the element to keep kicking and and off. Feel like that is just going to cause something to fail with the repeatative on/off.

 

[wyzazz]

Don't want the heat escaping to fast, which would force the element to keep kicking and and off. Feel like that is just going to cause something to fail with the repeatative on/off.

If that was the case (An SSR Failing due to rapid on/off switching) then setting my Auber PID to 70% when I boil would be burning up SSR's and Elements. That however, is not the case.

The overall efficiency (not brewhouse/mashing efficiency) of how much heat/power your system uses may be better if you eliminiate that gap somehow, but it is by no means a showstopper. JMO

 

[weirdboy]

My guess is that even without the feet, the basket sitting on the element won't let you put the lid on there. Otherwise, your feet have way too much clearance, and you can cut them down/off. Given your requirements, why don't you get a shorter basket, or shorten the one you have by a couple inches?


That said, I totally agree that you are way over-thinking this issue with the element cycling on/off too much.

 

[kh54s10]

Either get some sheet metal and make a collar for the pot or trim down the basket by about an inch.

 

[johns]

This pot should have 3.75 inches of clearance from the basket to the kettle. This is more than enough to install an element, sight, and ball-valve. Having said that, I think the problem lies in the basket sitting on one of these items due to pour installation, or that the custom made feet are too long for the pot. Having custom made feet is an easy fix, a misplaced element or valve is not. From the picture it looks like there should be enough clearance, but without a close up its hard to tell.

 

[Chris7687]

Looks like I will just try and chop a few inches off the top of the basket.

johns- there is no clearance from basket to kettle. This is a 82 quart Bayou Classic Kettle and a boil basket, I do have a 44 quart Bayou Classic kettle as well which has a steam basket that has the gap between bottom of kettle and basket.

 

[johns]

cris
I would not cut off the top of the basket, because it may become week and could break after some time. Just curious, is this one you bought? Because it does not look like it. In the reviews, one person wrote, "The stockpot measures 13-½ by 17-¼ inches tall.
Steam and Boil Basket measures 12-¼ by 12-¼ tall and sits 3 inches off the bottom of the pot.". 3 inches should be enough for the heat stick, and ball valve.

://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FTYKGQ/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

 

[Chris7687]

Johns - sorry, not to sound like a prick but you seem to be insulting my intelligence. If the stock pot had the 3 inch gap at the bottom I would have not started a thread to trouble shoot this problem. The measurements you have provided, which you received from the first customer review from Amazon, are not for the 82 quart kettle. The 82 qt kettle measurements are 19.75" wide x 17.5" tall. The basket is 18.5" wide x 15.75" tall. Giving me roughly 1.75" of clearance, which really isn't the case. With the legs removed from the basket and it sitting flush on the ball valve, which is as low as it could possibly be installed, there is still about .75" that is sticking up. I really don't want to cut the basket, but don't have any other options at this point. Don't know anyone that can weld a SS collar for me.

 

[johns]

Sorry Chris, I did not mean to be insulting, I was just interested in your predicament simply because I was thinking about buying one for myself. The confusion (for me) stems from Bayou Classic and understanding that their pots are not engineered the same for all their pots. All Bayou Classic steamers and pots are NOT the same. I just didn’t understand this at first.

I have also posted a new thread which deals with this question indirectly, because I would like to know which (80 quart or larger), pot is the best for this.

To my way of thinking Bayou should sell their pots with this type of steamer insert http://bayouclassicdepot.com/1982-bayou-classic-steamer-basket.htm, instead of having boiler or steamer baskets that sit flush with the bottom of the pot.

I will continue to watch this, and my other thread to see what ideas come from it, but now I am thinking about one of two options, and they are http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html, (75 quart), because I like the heavier gage. It’s a bit pricier, but for this reason and the fact that it comes with a steamer insert, similar to a false bottom, it could be a good buy for me. The downside is price, and its not the volume I am looking for in a big pot with a steamer,

Another alternative would be to just go ahead and buy the 65 quart Bayou stockpot with the basket for about 150. The bad thing about this is that I would not be able to make bigger beers in 10 gallon batches. Maybe, I will have to be satisfied in this until I move up to the next step in a 3V system for making the bigger beers. I know understand that the 65 quart Bayou has a lip that holds the basket above the bottom of the kettle which if going electric (for me) is nice because I would have enough room for the heat stick. The downside is volume.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Well your basket does not meet your requirements, sounds to me like you need to replace it with a smaller one, or cut it to fit. Easiest solution is to sell it and buy another one, hopefully without spending too much dough.

 

[weirdboy]

How about instead of modifying the basket or the pot, why not put some kind of insulating skirt that fits on the lid?

 

[Chris7687]

Sorry Chris, I did not mean to be insulting, I was just interested in your predicament simply because I was thinking about buying one for myself. The confusion (for me) stems from Bayou Classic and understanding that their pots are not engineered the same for all their pots. All Bayou Classic steamers and pots are NOT the same. I just didn’t understand this at first.

I have also posted a new thread which deals with this question indirectly, because I would like to know which (80 quart or larger), pot is the best for this.

To my way of thinking Bayou should sell their pots with this type of steamer insert http://bayouclassicdepot.com/1982-bayou-classic-steamer-basket.htm, instead of having boiler or steamer baskets that sit flush with the bottom of the pot.

I will continue to watch this, and my other thread to see what ideas come from it, but now I am thinking about one of two options, and they are http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html, (75 quart), because I like the heavier gage. It’s a bit pricier, but for this reason and the fact that it comes with a steamer insert, similar to a false bottom, it could be a good buy for me. The downside is price, and its not the volume I am looking for in a big pot with a steamer,

Another alternative would be to just go ahead and buy the 65 quart Bayou stockpot with the basket for about 150. The bad thing about this is that I would not be able to make bigger beers in 10 gallon batches. Maybe, I will have to be satisfied in this until I move up to the next step in a 3V system for making the bigger beers. I know understand that the 65 quart Bayou has a lip that holds the basket above the bottom of the kettle which if going electric (for me) is nice because I would have enough room for the heat stick. The downside is volume.

Johns- ya all their baskets are not the same designs, which seriously sucks. I love my 44qt design with the lip to hold the basket and the gap at the bottom. Search my previous threads on trying to help in determining a basket, I had one that was specifically on Bayou kettles. I solely BIAB right now, but intend one day to switch to 3V. I believe the Bayou kettles were the best route, especially after being an already existing customer. The heavy gauges nice and all, but really see no purpose other than a bigger price tag. I say this for two reasons: 1) if you're using electric, you don't need to be worried about scorching due to thin metal and 2) I'm not the gentlest person in the world and have bumped my kettle into things and never had any dents. Unless you're a semi-pro wrestler using it as a prop, there is no excuse that your brewing rig will ever become damage/dented.

Wilser - was originally thinking of an idea like weirdboy suggested.

Weirdboy - have any ideas on food grade insulating material? Was thinking of insulating material as a sleeve and then magnets sewed into it to hold the skirt to the lid

 

[weirdboy]

Well you said you're using aluminum foil now, right? So maybe just a sturdier version of that. Not with foil, but with aluminum sheets that are a bit thicker. Or, if you want to go nuts you could do something in stainless steel. If you want it actually insulated you could do a double-walled design, but to be honest the rest of your system isn't any better insulated than a thin sheet of metal anyway.

 

[lonetexan]

Sell the basket on ebay and use the $ on something else. All you need is a proper fitting bag. If you are electric, recirculate until you get to your strike temp, drop in the bag of grains, then set the pid on manual at 5%. Stir with a mash paddle every 15 to 20 minutes and call it good. You do NOT need to recirculate during the mash, just stir a few times during the mash. KISS!!!!!

The only time I had an issue is during a recirculation that had created an air pocket around the element/below the grain bed. This is why I have stopped using the pump during the mash. I don't use anything to keep the bag off the element at this point.

We tend to make things more complicated than it needs to be!

 

[johns]

Or,,,,,,or, you can take small nuts, bolts, and washers, and attach them to a pizzia screen. Pizzia screens are avialable on Amazon and are super cheap. The come in a various of sizes. The largest one is 20 inches. All that needs to be done is attach those bolts, nuts, and washers to the bottom of the pizzia screen to achieve the proper hieght.

I wish I would have thought of this earlier.

 

[WastedCider]

Have you tried getting a measurement of the feet on the Bayou Classic false bottom that comes with the BC Brew Kettles? I would bet that if you could resize your basket feet to the size of the false bottom you would be all good. I really like the BC pots. The .8 steel as well as the setup they offer for their brew kettle line seems perfect for apartment stove top BIAB. The 8 gallon brew kettle in particular.

Problems aside, your pot looks sweet. Nice job!

 

[wilserbrewer]

We tend to make things more complicated than it needs to be!

Winner, winner!

 

[MrWildcat2U]

Just throwing this out there, my bag and grains just drape over the element. I use a 5500W ULWD element, a PID w/auto-tune and full time recirc. I've never scorched grain or messed up my bag.

 

[johns]

WastedCider, Bayou makes some good stuff and I guess they now make a false bottom with a handle that had a kind of hinge. It’s like the handle on baskets. Unfortunately they only make it for the 62 quart size. BC also makes baskets with feet on them, but again not for the 82 quart size.

Mr., Wildcat, I imagine that having a false bottom or a basket in your brew pot is only for peace of mind. I have also heard that putting a bag on, over, or near to the element, will not have negative consequences. I think that it’s only for the peace of mind. It would also depend on your personal brewing style. If a system is not fully automated, then it would be alright to have the bag sit on the element for sometime while a person sits there and monitor the batch. On the other hand if you’re using a herms system, with tempeture controlled PIDs on a control box, it might be advisable to use a basket or a false bottom. In which case having the bag sit on the heat stick might not be desirable.

It’s just my idea, I would rather be safe than sorry. I have never used a bag over the element method to brew, so I have no experience with this.