Beersmith and Scaling Recipe Problems..

[GearDaddys]

Copied from an Email that I sent to Beersmith, and have not received a response. I'm having some issues with Scaling recopies with BS.. I've watched Brad's video on it, and read the small amount of documentation on his website, however the abbreviated nature is somewhat lacking in detail.. The jist of the issue is this - When I enter a recipe from this site, or AHA, for the purposes of scaling it to my gear, I've been selecting a generic eq profile, and entering the recipe as published. When I scale it, I'm typically going from a 5 gallon batch, up to a 6 gallon, and from 70 percent published effiency (brewhouse down to my eq profile which is 68.. With "match original gravity.. etc" checked, the output is yielding numbers that cannot be correct.. Hop additions that are LOWER than the original recipe, as well as some fermentables.. I did an extensive comparison the other day, and found that the choice of the equipment profile for the "original recipe" that you are entering seems to have a big effect on the ingredients after scaling, if you choose your actual eq profile for the original recipe.. It appears on Brads video, that it doesn't matter what eq you pick as you're going to scale it to your gear.. I'm not sure if this a bug, error, or just a lack of understanding on my part.. but something's not right with this.. Opinions?

FWD:

I have a question regarding the scaling of recipes. I’m running into a baffling problem that I can’t make heads or tails out of. Typically if I find a recipe on the AHA website, I enter it into BS as closely as possible, typically choose a generic pot for the equipment (usually something large that will hold a BIAB style batch).. If the recipe doesn’t have a BH efficiency number, I enter 70.. If the BS OG number at the bottom of the page matches the recipe, or close to it, I leave the efficiency at 70.. My particular brewhouse setup (usually 6 gallon batches via BIAB) gets 68 percent BH effiency, almost every time..

Here’s what get’s confusing to me.. When I scale up the recipe that I’ve entered, using my BIAB equip profile to a 6 gallon batch on MY gear.. I’ve added 1 gallon of product, and a lower brewhouse efficiency.. If I leave the box checked that says “match color/gravity/etc”, it will crank out numbers for hop additions, and some fermentable that are LESS than the original 5 gallon recipe..

So this morning, I decided to take the original recipe that I had from AHA, and compare 6 different versions of it..

1. Original as entered with generic pot.
2. Original with generic pot/Scaled to my gear/with “Match” checked.
3. Original with generic pot/Scaled to my gear/with “Match unchecked.
4. Entered original recipe except for equipment, I used my actual BIAB eqip profile w/ batch size changed to 5 gallons, and efficiency set to 70 per original recipe.
5. Same as 4 Above, with “Match” checked
6. Same as 4 above, with “Match” unchecked.

The results are that scaling a recipe built with a generic pot, and checking the “matching” box, yields results that I’m not understanding.. If I don’t check the box, all of the quantities go up in a predictable fashion. Interestingly however, if I start off the recipe build by selecting my actual BIAB pot, and matching the batch size (5 gallons) and authors supposed efficiency of 70 precent, THEN scale it with “match original gravity etc” checked, It’s giving me a more predictable result of “everything goes up a little bit”.. In fact, the final quantities of all ingredients in the versions “Generic Pot/Scaled/Unchecked” and “My Pot/Scaled/Checked” are almost identical… Leading me to believe that when someone enters a recipe into BS from a magazine, article, etc, the choice of the pot/equipment that they use prior to scaling does indeed make a difference on the scaled version..

If this is true, do you have a ‘best practice” for someone who wants to enter a recipe from a website, and then in the most accurate way, scale it to their gear? Thanks for any info you can provide, and for gutting through this email with me. I know it’s a lot to follow..There seems to be a lot of confusion on the fourms, so hopefully I can get it figured out and help some others.. I’ll attatch the BS files for all 6 of my trial recipes below if you’d like to look at what I’ve come up with.. The original recipe was an imperial stout from AHA website called “Chaos Returns”..

 

[Oginme]

I've found that entering recipes where the efficiency is unknown has been a real pain. Instead of trying to come up with a 'generic profile' to use, I simplified the method using the capabilities of BeerSmith.

What I do is open up a new recipe in BeerSmith (my standard is a 10 lite, full volume BIAB) and then I add all the ingredients to the recipe in the amounts and units of that recipe. For instance, if the recipe calls for 10.5 lbs of pale malt I will enter '10.5 lb' and BeerSmith will convert that to my preferred units (kg). Same for hops, enter in the hops as they are in the original recipe. If it calls for 2.5 oz, then I enter in '2.5 oz' and it will be converted to my default in grams.

Now, once you have everything in the recipe, right below the ingredient box is a set of sliders. I will click on the OG slider and enter in the OG from the printed recipe. BeerSmith will adjust the ingredients to match that OG. I repeat this same with the IBU slider and then the color slider. This will scale all the boil, whirlpool, and fermentables to match your process/equipment profile.

Dry hops, hop additions which give zero IBU values must be adjusted manually, but I can easily ratio them on the basis of the difference in batch sizes. Same goes for fruit or other miscellaneous item additions.

I use the 'scale recipe' function to scale between my 10 liter BIAB set up and my 20 liter 3 vessel system, where I know the process capabilities.

 

[GearDaddys]

Og,

Interesting, I'd never considered doing it this way.. Not quite as quick as hitting "scale recipe" but I"ll give it a go and see how it works.. I think I understand your technique.. As far as hops go, it would be easy to adjust the bitterness slider in the conversion for a 60 or 90 min boil.. however, for hops that are 20/15/etc, there is a portion of bitterness, and some aroma.. the difference would be difficult to decide which ones to apply a linear scale to? Really wish there was more documentation with BS..

 

[Oginme]

When you adjust the slider, the program adjusts all the hop additions which contribute to the bitterness proportionally. Thus a hop addition that contributes 10 IBU and another that contributes 2 IBU will each be adjusted based upon the ratio of the original calculation vs where you direct it to go. If you adjust the slider to go from 12 IBU total to 6 IBU total, the first addition would adjust from 10 to 5 and the second from 2 to 1.

 

[FunkedOut]

I no longer use 'scale recipe' when entering a recipe online.
I just use the OG, FG, grain percentages and IBU additions to enter it.
But when I did use that function for this, I copied my equipment profile and made a duplicate profile called "scaler." just edit that profile to match the BH efficiency and batch size before entering the recipe using that profile, then scale to your actual profile.
I usually end up tweaking it a little anyway, so that's why I find it easier to just build it in my profile now.

 

[GearDaddys]

Hey guys.. Thanks very much for reading through my long post at the top..

FunkedOut, I think your technique of creating an equipment profile that matches your actual equipment is probably yielding the same result as what I tried by building the recipe on my equipment profile, but changing the quantity, and BH number on the recipe design page, then scaling to my pot with the correct batch size, and BH efficiency.. Those numbers seem to make "make sense" to me..

Oginme, followup.. thanks for clarifying what the IBU slider does.. Let's say I'm brewing an IPA that has 60 minute, 30, 20, 10, 5, and whirlpool hop additions.. Would adjusting the IBU slider also have an effect on the aroma side? For instance, the 20 minute addition would certianly impart both aroma, as well as bitterness.. I think you said that for the aroma hops, you scaled them linearly, I'm really not clear how you would determine which additions were for aroma, and which are bitterness, as there is certainly some crossover at the mid boil additions?

Thanks again fellas..

 

[Oginme]

If you have the program set up for calculating IBU in the whirlpool, then yes it will change the amount proportionally to give an IBU contribution and by default the same aroma contribution scaled to the recipe. Where the scaling falls short is for any hop addition which gives no IBU contribution. Those you need to scale by hand and I usually proportion based upon the relative batch size, this predominantly affects dry hopping which is based upon batch size (oz/gal).

 

[FunkedOut]

When you change the BH efficiency and batch size on the recipe design page without using scale, keep an eye on mash efficiency.
You should make sure that is always inline with what you expect to see.

 

[flugelizor]

Disclaimer - I did not read it all.
I just want to mention what threw me off:
Make sure you check the volumes tab after scaling.
Particularly the deadspace volume.

 

[kevin58]

Stick with your actual equipment profile for one thing. Beersmith gives the best results when your profile data is accurate.

Also keep your efficiency number. When pulling a recipe off the internet that does not have the efficiency listed I look at the authors OG and ABV (and other figures). I adjust the ingredients... trying to keep the same ratios... until I match those numbers. You can use the ABV, IBU and SRM adjustment tool to bring your ingredient list up or down to match the original recipe.

 

[GearDaddys]

Thanks for all the input fellas.. I "think" I have it set up properly now.. I've been scaling recipes incorrectly for the last few years, wish I had known better.. The big problem was using a generic pot for beersmith to build the recipe on.. That totally messes it up in the scale.. I've scaled a few IPA's now that have dry hop additions, and it appears I'm getting the right numbers even for hop additions without IBU contributions.. Never did receive a response from Dr. Smith.. (lame)..

 

[wshinn2]

I always use my original equipment profile and enter the ingredients per the recipe, then adjust the batch volume up or down until the OG matches and only then rescale the recipe to my original recipe.

However, if you are using hops with different alpha acid percentages, the technique I use is a little more complex.

I then enter the original recipe with my equipment profile (as above) and adjust the batch size until the O.G. is correct to the author's recipe (this takes care of any difference in BH efficiency). Then go through the hop additions individually and calculate the HBUs (homebrew bitterness units) accoding to the recipe, and adjust the amount of hops to get the same level of bitterness.

For example, if the recipe calls for 1 oz of Magnum with an alpha acid of 10% for 60 minutes, this is equivalent to 10 HBUs (1 oz x 10 AA = 10 HBUs), but the magnum hops you plan to use have an alpha acid of 12%. You would recalculate the amount of Magnum to be 0.83 ounces (1 oz x 10 AA / 12 AA = 0.83) and adjust the recipe, prior to scaling.

One by one go through the hop additions, including whirlpool/steep additions, and adjust for any difference in AA%, if any. When this is done you simply re-scale the recipe (using the scale recipe feature of Beersmith) using your original equipment profile to the appropriate batch size and brewhouse efficiency.

Whew!! My apologies in advance for the lengthy response!!

 

[cswant88]

Best method for me is to create new recipe with my equipment and mash profiles. Add fermentables by percentage, then add hops with the actual aa% I will be using. Use adjust gravity and adjust IBU tools to set my desired OG and IBU