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Beersmith and Carapils

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ApolloMC

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Beersmith seems to have Carapils and Carafoam set as fermentable by default. Has anyone else noticed this? I know I can change it myself, but I'm just curious why this would be, or if I'm missing something. Was it just an oversight by the Beersmith devs? I'm up to date with 3.0.

I think this explains why my last brew finished .002 higher than anticipated.

Edit: missed a decimal place
 
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kh54s10

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Beersmith seems to have Carapils and Carafoam set as fermentable by default. Has anyone else noticed this? I know I can change it myself, but I'm just curious why this would be, or if I'm missing something. Was it just an oversight by the Beersmith devs? I'm up to date with 3.0.
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I think this explains why my last brew finished .02 higher than anticipated.
I don't know about the Carapils and Carafoam totally but since they are lightly kilned I would say that they are fermentable.

But? Are you really getting .02 consistency? I am happy if my FG is .05 high or low. So a 10 point swing.
 

day_trippr

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Heck, BS3 has Black Patent as fermentable. Good luck with that ;)
 
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I don't know about the Carapils and Carafoam totally but since they are lightly kilned I would say that they are fermentable.

But? Are you really getting .02 consistency? I am happy if my FG is .05 high or low. So a 10 point swing.
Sorry, I had a typo above. Meant .002.

Now that I have my equipment dialed in on Beersmith I get pretty close, yeah. I have a harder time hitting my OG these days, due to an issue in beersmith regarding trub loss and brewhouse efficiency. But I'm usually within a few points.

Carapils is not fermentable according to the Briess website and many other sources on the web. This is why it adds body and head retention. I believe this is the case for any of the "Cara" malts.
 

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Sorry, I had a typo above. Meant .002.

Now that I have my equipment dialed in on Beersmith I get pretty close, yeah. I have a harder time hitting my OG these days, due to an issue in beersmith regarding trub loss and brewhouse efficiency. But I'm usually within a few points.

Carapils is not fermentable according to the Briess website and many other sources on the web. This is why it adds body and head retention. I believe this is the case for any of the "Cara" malts.
It's fermentable- and it doesn't say it isn't on the Briess website. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Carapils.htm

It does have some non-fermentables of course, but when you use, say, a pound of it, it's not completely non-fermentable. Often, a beer will reach the same FG with or without carapils in it so that shows that it is fermentable, at least to a degree.
 

kh54s10

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Sorry, I had a typo above. Meant .002.

Now that I have my equipment dialed in on Beersmith I get pretty close, yeah. I have a harder time hitting my OG these days, due to an issue in beersmith regarding trub loss and brewhouse efficiency. But I'm usually within a few points.

Carapils is not fermentable according to the Briess website and many other sources on the web. This is why it adds body and head retention. I believe this is the case for any of the "Cara" malts.
The

I followed your typo when I said .05. I meant .005 Worrying about getting within .002 of a final gravity estimate is going to give you ulcers. There are too many variables that will affect the FG. Also, the yeast can't read the recipe. So, if a recipe calls for an FG of 1.010 I am happy with anything between 1.015 and 1.005
 
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It's fermentable- and it doesn't say it isn't on the Briess website. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Carapils.htm

It does have some non-fermentables of course, but when you use, say, a pound of it, it's not completely non-fermentable. Often, a beer will reach the same FG with or without carapils in it so that shows that it is fermentable, at least to a degree.
After reading several posts about this, I think you are right. It contributes unfermentables but is not 100% unfermentable.

I could have sworn I saw it on the Briess website yesterday but I can't find what I was looking at now. If you look at several other sites though you'll see it's labeled as unfermentable. Whether that is accurate or not is debatable.

Here is an example
http://www.brewandgrow.com/brew/ingredients/grain/crystal/cara-pils.html

And MoreBeer seems to agree
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/usingdextrinmalt

This very forum also has plenty of references to Carapils being unfermentable.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fermentability-of-carapils.265980/

But those posts do seem to be pretty old, circa 2011 or so. Perhaps when homebrewers had less access to the quality modified base grains we have today.

I can't find it now, but I saw one post where a guy did an experiment with 50% Carapils which fermented out to 1.015, which certainly indicates it is fermentable.

I also wonder if a lot of those posts were extract brewers using Carapils to steep. Which would contribute 100% unfermentables.
 
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I followed your typo when I said .05. I meant .005 Worrying about getting within .002 of a final gravity estimate is going to give you ulcers. There are too many variables that will affect the FG. Also, the yeast can't read the recipe. So, if a recipe calls for an FG of 1.010 I am happy with anything between 1.015 and 1.005
I find Beersmith to be pretty close most of the time. Well within .010 to be honest. Like I said, I'm having trouble dialing in my equipment profile to hit the predicted OG, but I'm usually within a couple of points. FG should be much easier to get within a couple of points. Having a .05 swing either direction is pretty drastic IMO. I usually end up high by a couple of points rather than low.

Some things you might consider... Boil off rates can vary, and the more that is boiled off, the higher your OG is going to be. Conversely, less boil off will lead to a lower OG. If you add Trub Loss into the Beersmith equipment profile, it will skew your predicted mash efficiency and OG by a lot, making it impossible to hit your numbers. You have to account for that by entering a lower brewhouse efficiency % (trub loss = less BH eff). Mash temp is obviously another HUGE factor in that FG number.
 

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I also wonder if a lot of those posts were extract brewers using Carapils to steep. Which would contribute 100% unfermentables.
If carapils does contribute fermentables, steeping would not give you 100% unfermentable wort. Steeping does add a small amount of fermentable sugars. What percentage I don't know.
 

kh54s10

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I find Beersmith to be pretty close most of the time. Well within .010 to be honest. Like I said, I'm having trouble dialing in my equipment profile to hit the predicted OG, but I'm usually within a couple of points. FG should be much easier to get within a couple of points. Having a .05 swing either direction is pretty drastic IMO. I usually end up high by a couple of points rather than low.

Some things you might consider... Boil off rates can vary, and the more that is boiled off, the higher your OG is going to be. Conversely, less boil off will lead to a lower OG. If you add Trub Loss into the Beersmith equipment profile, it will skew your predicted mash efficiency and OG by a lot, making it impossible to hit your numbers. You have to account for that by entering a lower brewhouse efficiency % (trub loss = less BH eff). Mash temp is obviously another HUGE factor in that FG number.
I find that I get the opposite. I am usually very close for my OG. The FG varies a lot. I feel that there are so many variables to how much of the sugars a yeast can convert that any software only gives a pretty rough estimation of what the FG will be.
 
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If carapils does contribute fermentables, steeping would not give you 100% unfermentable wort. Steeping does add a small amount of fermentable sugars. What percentage I don't know.
From what I understand, adjuncts like Carapils needs the enzymes in modified base grains in order to convert unfermentables into fermentables. For an extract brewer, steeping Carapils would not provide any enzymes, and therefor no fermentables.
 
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I find that I get the opposite. I am usually very close for my OG. The FG varies a lot. I feel that there are so many variables to how much of the sugars a yeast can convert that any software only gives a pretty rough estimation of what the FG will be.
If you have a consistent process, and your ingredients are consistent, you should hit the same FG every time. If you are using quality grains, milled properly, then brew software should be able to pretty accurately predict how much fermentable sugar is being produced by a mash process at X temp for X minutes. I've read you can use Iodine to see if starches are done converting if you're having trouble with fermentables produced in your mash.
 

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From what I understand, adjuncts like Carapils needs the enzymes in modified base grains in order to convert unfermentables into fermentables. For an extract brewer, steeping Carapils would not provide any enzymes, and therefor no fermentables.
If only the world were that black and white. Carapils is a converted malt, which means that the starches have been broken down into dextrins and maltose. The maltster tries to control the conversion during the malting process to maximize the formation of dextrins over smaller sugars, but they are never that good to convert the starches to ONLY dextrins. It will contribute some small amounts of fermentable sugars when steeped. When mashed, the enzymes from the diastatic malts used will act upon the dextrins and reduce them further.
 

kh54s10

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From what I understand, adjuncts like Carapils needs the enzymes in modified base grains in order to convert unfermentables into fermentables. For an extract brewer, steeping Carapils would not provide any enzymes, and therefor no fermentables.
Not quite. Carapils would need base grains to convert more starches into fermentable wort. Also when steeping for extracts you will get very little in the way of fermentables, but not zero.

If you have a consistent process, and your ingredients are consistent, you should hit the same FG every time. If you are using quality grains, milled properly, then brew software should be able to pretty accurately predict how much fermentable sugar is being produced by a mash process at X temp for X minutes. I've read you can use Iodine to see if starches are done converting if you're having trouble with fermentables produced in your mash.
It has not been my experience in my 101 batches over 7 years that I get the same FG often much less than every time. My system is dialed in and I am usually within .002 on OG. Even if I hit OG exactly, I might be off .005 on FG. I consider this normal. I pitch the proper amount of healthy yeast into a wort from properly milled quality grains. Maybe it could be better but it's not of great concern to me.
 

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It has not been my experience in my 101 batches over 7 years that I get the same FG often much less than every time. My system is dialed in and I am usually within .002 on OG. Even if I hit OG exactly, I might be off .005 on FG. I consider this normal. I pitch the proper amount of healthy yeast into a wort from properly milled quality grains. Maybe it could be better but it's not of great concern to me.
I totally agree with this. Fermentation temperature, yeast health and cell count, variability of grains from lot to lot, year to year, there are just so many other minor influences that to continually be nuts on with an FG estimate is a nice dream but far from reality. 147 batches in 6 years, very tight process, and I would be continually grateful for +/- 0.002 or 0.003 in my FG.
 
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