Batch to Fly

[loxnar]

So after my very first All grain batch last week i made an immediate decision that i would switch to fly sparging. I only have a few questions in regards to the technique.

1. When i did batch sparge i used 2qts per pound of grain for my strike water and 1/2 gallon per pound of grain for my sparge water...im assuming since im not batch sparging im just gonna run my fly sparge until A) my kettle is full or B) a reach a gravity of 1.1015 or lower....my question is do i still use the same amount of strike water or should i use a lower amount to be able to fly sparge for a longer period?

2. Is the first part of the mash still the same....apply strike water, stir every 15 minutes, recirculate and begin fly sparge about 45 minutes into mash?

3. How long should the sparge process take once i begin? I was told at least 30 minutes....

thanks for the help any other advice or heads up would be awesome...still knew to the all grain thing but im lovin every minute of it!

 

[EricCSU]

Just curious, but why do you want to switch?

Eric

 

[loxnar]

just efficiency purposes....the dynamics behind it makes a lot of sense to me

 

[EricCSU]

More power to you...

It just seems like a much more complicated process for little gain.

Eric

 

[loxnar]

More power to you...

It just seems like a much more complicated process for little gain.

Eric

something tells me by the end of my brew day im gonna agree with you....however the extra costs ive invested into getting another cooler and some random brass fittings and lawn sprinklers im gonna be biting the bullet and using this as my way of doing it....another 100 bucks in equipment and probably another hour to my brew day for im guessing 5% efficiency or so....

 

[MilwaukeeBrewGuy]

Actually you do less work when you fly sparge. Sure it takes longer but as long as you keep a relatively close eye on it you can do other things.

Be not ashamed to fly sparge. I know there are a lot of batch spargers on this site but in my opinion it is so much easier to get better efficiency more consistently.

Welcome to the club. +1 for the good guys.

 

[MilwaukeeBrewGuy]

oh and get yourself a measuring stick. When you hit your pre-boil volume just stop.

You don't need to stir the mash every 15 minutes. Just when you dough in to break up the dough balls.

My sparges usually last about 40-50 minutes. I would hate to run faster than 30 minutes.

 

[ajf]

My experience is that fly sparging can yield slightly higher efficiency than batch sparging with the correct equipment. In my case it is about 5% higher, but I have several years experience with fly sparges, and very little with batch. I'm sure that if I got more experience with batch, I could increase my efficiency for batch sparges.
Do you have the right equipment for fly sparging? If not, you could get very much worse efficiency. You need to be able to introduce the sparge water very gently on to the top of the grains so that it does not disturb the grain bed. You also need a filtering mechanism such as a false bottom or a manifold that collects the wort evenly across the whole cross sectional area of the MLT. A false bottom in a cylindrical cooler is excellent, and Palmer gives some excellent advice for manifold design at http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD-1.html
A braid won't work well for fly sparging unless it is long enough to meander around the whole bottom of the MLT.
The next thing to consider is a mash-out. With batch sparging, this is unnecessary as you can adjust the temperature of the sparge water to raise the grain bed temperature to ~168. With fly sparging, you add water very slowly, and drain off at the same rate. In my experience, without a mash out, the sparge temperature kept the sparge temperature in the low to middle 150's. When I started to do a mash out, my efficiency jumped by 10%. I initially thought that this was due to sparging in the upper 160's rather than the low to middle 150's. Now, I think the efficiency jump has more to do with the mixing of the mash out water (by stirring thoroughly) before starting the sparge. After stirring, I let it settle for 15 minutes to settle, before vorlaufing.
I agree with the previous comment about not stirring during the mash, as each stir would cause the temperature to drop. However, others do stir.
As for sparge time, I used to use a 5g cooler, and it took me about 60 minutes to sparge 5g for a 1.050 brew, or 90 minutes for the same volume at 1.075. When I switched to a 10g cooler, I found the sparge went much quicker, but my efficiency dropped by a few %. The efficiency has now risen to the old level as I got used to the equipment.
Beware of oversparging. This is very easy to do with a fly sparge, but almost impossible with a batch. I highly recommend a refractometer for judging the gravity of the runnings quickly, as the gravity drops fast towards the end of the sparge.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

-a.

 

[GreenMonti]

Beware of oversparging. This is very easy to do with a fly sparge, but almost impossible with a batch. I highly recommend a refractometer for judging the gravity of the runnings quickly, as the gravity drops fast towards the end of the sparge.

Can you help me out with this statement? I have seen you say this before and I am a little confuzid.

It sounds like we are in the similar boats. Yours is a bit larger then mine due to that fact that I have never batch sparged. The thing I am hung up on is, no matter which method you use you are after the same amount of wort from the same amount of grain. So, you are running the same amount of liquor through the grain bed. I don't see how fly sparging is easier to over sparge. The grain only has so much sugar in it. Assuming your doing things right and your not getting any channeling while fly sparging, either method should put you in the same place. Sorta. I can see the higher efficiency using the fly sparge method due to the simple fact, that the sugars are consistently being rinsed and moved toward the drain.

Are you coming from an efficiency stand point?

 

[ajf]

When you batch sparge, you start by draining the first runnings. These have a relatively high gravity and after draining, there are still a lot of sugars left behind in the grain. You add a batch of sparge water, and stir. This establishes the gravity of the second runnings which will have a gravity lower than the first runnings. You drain these into the kettle, but still leave some sugars left behind in the MLT. You may then repeat this process for a second batch sparge. When I batch sparged, the gravity of the final runnings (after the second batch) was always > 1.018, and there is approximately 1 pint of wort per lb grain plus whatever dead space you have in the MLT that has that same gravity.
With fly sparging, you are continually introducing fresh water on top of the grain bed, and this rinses the sugars downwards towards the outlet, creating a gravity gradient with low gravity at the top of the bed, and a higher gravity at the bottom. Towards the end of the sparge, as the sugars are rinsed from the grain, the gravity of the runnings starts to drop very quickly. I stop collecting the sparge when the gravity of the runnings drops to 1.010, which I usually achieve about 1g short of the required pre-boil volume. I make up this volume with water. Assuming no channeling, this would mean that the liquid left in the MLT has a gravity of 1.010 at the bottom, and even less at the top because of the gravity gradient.

-a.

 

[loxnar]

Do you have the right equipment for fly sparging?

I have a 60 quart rectangular cooler with a manifold for my mash tun and my HLT is a 48 quart cooler....i drilled a 1/2" hole through the top of my mash tun to feed a 3/8" ID tube through it....that is connected to a plastic circular lawn watering ring (http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-Garden-Center-Watering-Sprinklers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhcZbpae/R-100332876/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) that i have used some brass fittings to get it down to a 3/8 hose barb.....its attached to the top of the mash tun with some plumber's tape (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=plumbers+tape&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&cid=3031155645543326524&ei=R6cCTK74C4vakQToq6nnDQ&sa=title&ved=0CBMQ8wIwAzgA#p)

equipment works great its just getting the process down that i need

 

[GreenMonti]

When you batch sparge, you start by draining the first runnings. These have a relatively high gravity and after draining, there are still a lot of sugars left behind in the grain. You add a batch of sparge water, and stir. This establishes the gravity of the second runnings which will have a gravity lower than the first runnings. You drain these into the kettle, but still leave some sugars left behind in the MLT. You may then repeat this process for a second batch sparge. When I batch sparged, the gravity of the final runnings (after the second batch) was always > 1.018, and there is approximately 1 pint of wort per lb grain plus whatever dead space you have in the MLT that has that same gravity.
With fly sparging, you are continually introducing fresh water on top of the grain bed, and this rinses the sugars downwards towards the outlet, creating a gravity gradient with low gravity at the top of the bed, and a higher gravity at the bottom. Towards the end of the sparge, as the sugars are rinsed from the grain, the gravity of the runnings starts to drop very quickly. I stop collecting the sparge when the gravity of the runnings drops to 1.010, which I usually achieve about 1g short of the required pre-boil volume. I make up this volume with water. Assuming no channeling, this would mean that the liquid left in the MLT has a gravity of 1.010 at the bottom, and even less at the top because of the gravity gradient.

-a.

Exactly.

I guess where I am coming from is. If you have say 9 lbs of grain and you fly sparge out 6 gallons till you get to the point of the 1.010 gravity. All is well. How can one expect to run 7 gallons total through the same grain bill and not over sparge it, just cause they are batch sparging? I haven't done the math but, it just doesn't seem 5% in efficiency will get you the extra gallon in the kettle.

I will have to look into it. Thank you for answering me.

 

[GreenMonti]

I have a 60 quart rectangular cooler with a manifold for my mash tun and my HLT is a 48 quart cooler....i drilled a 1/2" hole through the top of my mash tun to feed a 3/8" ID tube through it....that is connected to a plastic circular lawn watering ring (http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-Garden-Center-Watering-Sprinklers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhcZbpae/R-100332876/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) that i have used some brass fittings to get it down to a 3/8 hose barb.....its attached to the top of the mash tun with some plumber's tape (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=plumbers+tape&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&cid=3031155645543326524&ei=R6cCTK74C4vakQToq6nnDQ&sa=title&ved=0CBMQ8wIwAzgA#p)

equipment works great its just getting the process down that i need

I would be interested in knowing what that sprinkler is made of?? You don't want any off flavors in your brew do to hot water and cheap plastic.