Bag WILL NOT drain. Why?

[Dancy]

So I wouldn’t need to be concerned about shelf life?

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm set for 2 brew lives with the remaining half gallon

So I wouldn’t need to be concerned about shelf life?

Shelf life of the brewer?
Or the acid?

 

[Bobby_M]

LD contacted me, so I assume they contacted any other affected retailers. You can probably alleviate your concerns by making a call. Another option is to add a very conservatives amount and test your pH immediately.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Do the bottles have lot numbers?

 

[Bobby_M]

no

 

[z-bob]

Assume it's 85% (it's certainly not going to be much stronger.) Dose with it as if it's 85%; check the pH if you can, mainly so you can add a little more if necessary, otherwise just see how the brew goes.

 

[ihavenonickname]

Holy **** this thread read like a horror movie at first… pull the bag and no wort… NO WORT! brewers nightmare! Then it read like an edge of your seat who-done-it murder mystery! I thought for sure it was the “the butler” i mean the unmalted barley.

Kudos to @Bobby_M as usual, I’m again impressed by your customer service.

@HopsAreGood I still am stunned at how pale and creamy your beers look using 2-row. Do you use a short boil?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Holy **** this thread read like a horror movie at first… pull the bag and no wort… NO WORT! brewers nightmare! Then it read like an edge of your seat who-done-it murder mystery! I thought for sure it was the “the butler” i mean the unmalted barley.

Kudos to @Bobby_M as usual, I’m again impressed by your customer service.

@HopsAreGood I still am stunned at how pale and creamy your beers look using 2-row. Do you use a short boil?

I do, generally only a 15-20 minute boil.

 

[IslandLizard]

I do, generally only a 15-20 minute boil.

How's the DMS level in the resulting beer?

 

[z-bob]

How's the DMS level in the resulting beer?

I've never had detectable DMS with pilsner malt and a 30 minute boil.

 

[HopsAreGood]

How's the DMS level in the resulting beer?

Zero. I’ve never detected DMS in anything I’ve ever brewed. I generally use 2-row rather than Pilsner, but I have done 20 minute boils with Pilsner and DMS was a non issue.

 

[HopsAreGood]

It’s possible others are more sensitive to DMS, but I have never produced a beer that smelled like the typical descriptors of said DMS.

Unless I’m specifically looking for the character that a 60 minute hop
addition provides, I see no reason to boil for 60 minutes.

I did 60 minute boils for years, and see no negative results moving to a 15-20 minute boil. If anything, I actually prefer the results more.

 

[VikeMan]

It’s possible others are more sensitive to DMS, but I have never produced a beer that smelled like the typical descriptors of said DMS.

DMS sensitivity (like every other compound afaik) definitely varies. I smell it coming off of every boil.

 

[HopsAreGood]

DMS sensitivity (like every other compound afaik) definitely varies. I smell it coming off of every boil.

Exactly my point. I never smell creamed corn or whatever others tend to perceive as DMS, but we’re all different.

I will say that I prefer using 2-row to Pilsner to specifically avoid the possibility of DMS, considering the fact that I do only boil for 15-20 minutes.

As far as I understand, 2-row is modified enough more than Pilsner where
a short boil isn’t nearly as much of a concern.

 

[VikeMan]

As far as I understand, 2-row is modified enough more than Pilsner where
a short boil isn’t nearly as much of a concern.

If we can say "kilned" instead "modified," I agree. I've never found anything definitive to say that higher modification (i.e. degree of germination) results in less DMS.

 

[HopsAreGood]

If we can say "kilned" instead "modified," I agree. I've never found anything definitive to say that higher modification (i.e. degree of germination) results in less DMS.

Agreed...100%....

This is correct.

 

[TurdFerguson80]

FWIW, I think I'm having the exact same problem - 5 biab batches in a row failed after 15-20 good-great successes where I'd be tearing my hair out if I weren't bald already...same recipes, different bottle of supposedly 10% LD Carlson phosphoric acid purchased from amazon. I guess I need to get a ph meter, but those seem like a total pain in the ass to deal with (keeping calibrated - I only do 2.5 gallon batches)

 

[jerrylotto]

I keep mine in a pH 4.01 buffer solution. It has a cubic cap that I fill with the solution and then tape up to prevent evaporation or leakage. The next time I turn it on, it reads 4.0 and if not, I replace the solution, check it again and adjust if necessary.

 

[HopsAreGood]

FWIW, I think I'm having the exact same problem - 5 biab batches in a row failed after 15-20 good-great successes where I'd be tearing my hair out if I weren't bald already...same recipes, different bottle of supposedly 10% LD Carlson phosphoric acid purchased from amazon. I guess I need to get a ph meter, but those seem like a total pain in the ass to deal with (keeping calibrated - I only do 2.5 gallon batches)

It’s definitely the problem. I ended up calling ld Carlson and explained exactly what happened. They are WELL AWARE of the problem. I got another bottle from a different HB store, and the same thing happened. I’ve since moved on to 88% Lactic and have no intention of going back.

 

[IslandLizard]

FWIW, I think I'm having the exact same problem - 5 biab batches in a row failed

I ended up calling ld Carlson and explained exactly what happened. They are WELL AWARE of the problem.

Have they offered to at least replace the ingredients of the failed batches?
That would be the next logical step I'd say...

I'm so glad I've been mixing my own 10% solution Phosphoric Acid from a gallon jug of 85%.
Before that I used 88% Lactic Acid, diluted to 10% too.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Have they offered to at least replace the ingredients of the failed batches?
That would be the next logical step I'd say...

I'm so glad I've been mixing my own 10% solution Phosphoric Acid from a gallon jug of 85%.
Before that I used 88% Lactic Acid, diluted to 10% too.

The first two times it happened to me, @Bobby_M refunded me and took care of it. Even refunded the grains and everything. I’m not sure if LD Carlson took care of him but Id like to assume they did?


It was pretty crazy because when it first happened I noticed they changed the label to a new look. I ended up getting another bottle from the different homebrew store, and immediately noticed the label was exactly the same as the one that was bad. I explained exactly what happened to the guy at the store, and he told me he’d heard nothing about it and that it should absolutely be fine.

When I left there, I called LD Carlson directly in the car. I explained exactly what it happened, and that I was concerned about this bottle because it had the new label. She was completely aware of the issue, and asked me what store I bought the new bottle from because she could look it up for me. She had some date range in mind, because the bottles don’t have lot numbers or anything that identify them, and said that all of the bottles that this particular store had should absolutely be fine.

Low and behold, when I used it, the same exact thing happened. I ended up going back into the store and explaining to them exactly what happened, and they were super appreciative of me telling them. I didn’t ask for a refund or anything like that, but they said they were going to immediately pull them all off the shelves and call LD Carlson to figure it out.

Like I said, I’m on the lactic train. I’ve been burned too many times and I simply don’t trust it anymore.

 

[TurdFerguson80]

The first two times it happened to me, @Bobby_M refunded me and took care of it. Even refunded the grains and everything. I’m not sure if LD Carlson took care of him but Id like to assume they did?


It was pretty crazy because when it first happened I noticed they changed the label to a new look. I ended up getting another bottle from the different homebrew store, and immediately noticed the label was exactly the same as the one that was bad. I explained exactly what happened to the guy at the store, and he told me he’d heard nothing about it and that it should absolutely be fine.

When I left there, I called LD Carlson directly in the car. I explained exactly what it happened, and that I was concerned about this bottle because it had the new label. She was completely aware of the issue, and asked me what store I bought the new bottle from because she could look it up for me. She had some date range in mind, because the bottles don’t have lot numbers or anything that identify them, and said that all of the bottles that this particular store had should absolutely be fine.

Low and behold, when I used it, the same exact thing happened. I ended up going back into the store and explaining to them exactly what happened, and they were super appreciative of me telling them. I didn’t ask for a refund or anything like that, but they said they were going to immediately pull them all off the shelves and call LD Carlson to figure it out.

Like I said, I’m on the lactic train. I’ve been burned too many times and I simply don’t trust it anymore.

That's good to know; I got mine from Amazon but will call LD Carlson directly tomorrow. The reason I've always used Phosphoric vs Lactic is that supposedly Phosphoric is more flavor-neutral...assuming you haven't noticed any taste issues using Lactic? I suppose buying 85% phosphoric and diluting is another option...I just wouldn't trust buying from LD Carlson at this point.

 

[HopsAreGood]

That's good to know; I got mine from Amazon but will call LD Carlson directly tomorrow. The reason I've always used Phosphoric vs Lactic is that supposedly Phosphoric is more flavor-neutral...assuming you haven't noticed any taste issues using Lactic? I suppose buying 85% phosphoric and diluting is another option...I just wouldn't trust buying from LD Carlson at this point.

100%. When I first started brewing and learning about mash chemistry, I read something that said phosphoric is completely flavor neutral, and that lactic sometimes presents a tang that people can identify and don’t like. For that reason alone I’ve always used phosphoric. I completely understand that this issue is with LD Carlson, and not phosphoric acid, but LD Carlson is what is most readily available to me, and I just don’t trust it anymore.

I used to use acid malt a lot which is lactic, And never noticed any twang from that. I’ve also been happy with the few brews I’ve done since switching from phosphoric to lactic..so I’m prob going to just stick with it.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you know for sure the phosphoric acid in the bottles that are problematic is indeed 85% (seems to be an industry standard), you can easily dilute it to 10% and make around 13.6 bottles (@ 10%) from it.

 

[HopsAreGood]

If you know for sure the phosphoric acid in the bottles that are problematic is indeed 85% (seems to be an industry standard), you can easily dilute it to 10% and make around 13.6 bottles (@ 10%) from it.

I’ve already thrown them away. I’m happy using lactic from here on out.

 

[Miraculix]

It looks completely unconverted to me. Porridge!

Maybe the malt was bad? I bet the iodine test would be positive af.

Maybe brew the easiest beer you can, a smash, single infusion, 65c with 1% acidulated malt instead of the acid.

If this works, you know where to look for the problem.

 

[HopsAreGood]

It looks completely unconverted to me. Porridge!

Maybe the malt was bad? I bet the iodine test would be positive af.

Maybe brew the easiest beer you can, a smash, single infusion, 65c with 1% acidulated malt instead of the acid.

If this works, you know where to look for the problem.

The problem was mislabeled phosphoric acid. What was supposed to be 10% was actually way stronger.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I brew most of the time with 9 lb pale malt and 1.5 lb light crystal - 30 litres of water to start treated with half a campden tablet and 18 ml AMS. Wort runs clear pre-boil. Never ever used lactic or phosphoric.

 

[TheMadKing]

I brew most of the time with 9 lb pale malt and 1.5 lb light crystal - 30 litres of water to start treated with half a campden tablet and 18 ml AMS. Wort runs clear pre-boil. Never ever used lactic or phosphoric.

Ams is a mixture of hydrochloric acid and sulfuric acid.. So you're just adding a different type of acid

Also clear wort isn't usually considered a reliable indicator of correct pH, full conversion, or good lautering

 

[jerrylotto]

For crying out loud, what difference does it make what the concentration of phosphoric acid is in the bottle? If your wort is buffered and you add it dropwise to hit your target pH, you just use less. Trust and verify! Once you know that it's too concentrated, dilute it if you want.

 

[HopsAreGood]

For crying out loud, what difference does it make what the concentration of phosphoric acid is in the bottle? If your wort is buffered and you add it dropwise to hit your target pH, you just use less. Trust and verify! Once you know that it's too concentrated, dilute it if you want.

Obviously, if you add it drop wise and are testing as you go, it won’t be an issue. While that may be a superior way of doing it, not everyone does. I did well over 100 batches by simply calculating everything upfront and adding the full amount phosphoric, And never had a problem. As long as the calculations are correct everything will go perfectly. That being said, this does not work when the concentration of the acid is incorrect or mislabeled…which is exactly what happened, and is the reason this thread exists.

 

[VikeMan]

Obviously, if you add it drop wise and are testing as you go, it won’t be an issue. While that may be a superior way of doing it, not everyone does.

Nobody does that. By the time you get to the target pH, the mash would be over. Think about a 5 gallon batch that requires, say, an estimated 20 ml of 10% Phosphoric acid. At about 20 drops per ml, that's 400 drops. Gosh, that's a lot of pH measurements to take.

Now, some people will add the amount they think they need (per a calculation), then test, and then adjust. But in the case of a 85% Phosphoric that was thought to be only 10%, that's going to be a huge overshoot right off the bat.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Nobody does that. By the time you get to the target pH, the mash would be over. Think about a 5 gallon batch that requires, say, an estimated 20 ml of 10% Phosphoric acid. At about 20 drops per ml, that's 400 drops. Gosh, that's a lot of pH measurements to take.

Now, some people will add the amount they think they need (per a calculation), then test, and then adjust. But in the case of a 85% Phosphoric that was thought to be only 10%, that's going to be a huge overshoot right off the bat.

Got it…I think I misunderstood what he was saying. Regardless, 85% PA that was thought to be 10% is a disaster.

 

[jerrylotto]

Nobody does that. By the time you get to the target pH, the mash would be over.

I meant to say that I do that to my strike water - not to the mash. And I use 85% H3PO4.

 

[VikeMan]

I meant to say that I do that to my strike water - not to the mash. And I use 85% H3PO4.

Either way (mash or strike water), nobody using what they believe to be 10% Phosphoric Acid is doing pH measurements after each drop. And that's the case for the OP in this thread. So perhaps this advice... "For crying out loud, what difference does it make what the concentration of phosphoric acid is in the bottle?" ... doesn't apply.

 

[jerrylotto]

Either way (mash or strike water), nobody using what they believe to be 10% Phosphoric Acid is doing pH measurements after each drop. And that's the case for the OP in this thread. So perhaps this advice... "For crying out loud, what difference does it make what the concentration of phosphoric acid is in the bottle?" ... doesn't apply.

It was the continued assumption I was responding to, not the first experience.

 

[odie]

well glad I don't add anything to my mash water except crushed grain...

 

[TurdFerguson80]

well glad I don't add anything to my mash water except crushed grain...

I never did either and would rarely hit my target OG. After looking at the estimated ph in beersmith and adding 10% phosphoric to have the ph (per the calculations) be in the 5.2-5.6 range, I would almost always hit my target OG

 

[jerrylotto]

well glad I don't add anything to my mash water except crushed grain...

I hope that you aren't using tap water without killing off Chloramine and free chlorine! Even in small amounts these things are going to be toxic to yeast. And even if it doesn't kill off fermentation at all, trichlorophenol is not a tasty component of finished beer.

 

[odie]

I hope that you aren't using tap water without killing off Chloramine and free chlorine! Even in small amounts these things are going to be toxic to yeast. And even if it doesn't kill off fermentation at all, trichlorophenol is not a tasty component of finished beer.

charcoal filter. but pretty sure the boil would drive that out anyway.