Astringency after several weeks

[Sandbrew]

Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum, but I've been brewing for roughly 8 years or so. Nice to meet you all. In my years of brewing I've rarely encountered what I'm about to explain, as such I'm at a loss. So here goes:
I've recently switched from batch sparging in mash tun to BIAB (Less time on brew day, much easier). I've done 3-4 or so batches with BIAB before, but at this point I'm doing every batch this way. I brewed a NE style IPA which tasted fantastic out of fermentor, even better after burst carbing (recently switched to closed transfer using CO2 pressure as well), and great for a few weeks. Now, after 2 weeks in kegerator, it has developed a noticeable astringency.. I've brewed beer with this flavor once before (long story, the yeast got tainted by someone else's chlorine treated water), but never after 2 weeks of solid flavor. The only thing I've changed recently is closed transfer, and BIAB methodology. The reason I'm posting this here is if this has happened to anyone before, and/or if anyone has ideas as to what may have happened. Here are some of my thoughts/ideas for anyone who has tried self-diagnosing with these ideas before:
- Perhaps my beer lines are dirty? I'll try cleaning them today and pull a pint after.. But this has never been an issue before. Plenty of beers have been through those lines with no off flavors.
- Perhaps my pH was too high in the mash? I've recently started checking pH levels again.. I believe this one ended at 5.5-5.6 range, which I know can be a bit high for light IPAs. I also know this can cause a tannin release.. But if tannins were released wouldn't I taste this immediately? Not 2 weeks after kegging...
That's all I got. Thanks for looking.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I would consider myself to have enough experience to be able to say that with my 3 different BIAB systems (1 homemade, and 2 braumeisters)and having had a 2 vessel, and now a three vessel. I am fanatical about beer quality, and I could never get a BIAB, to actually taste as good as a non. So the BIAB systems sit on my shelf.

 

[cubalz]

I would consider myself to have enough experience to be able to say that with my 3 different BIAB systems (1 homemade, and 2 braumeisters)and having had a 2 vessel, and now a three vessel. I am fanatical about beer quality, and I could never get a BIAB, to actually taste as good as a non. So the BIAB systems sit on my shelf.

Yeah, this statement is utterly ridiculous and perhaps shows a lack of knowledge on creating a good recipe for BIAB. Using no-sparge single vessel BIAB techniques and adjusting the grain bill 20%, I have won countless beer competition awards. As a point of reference: Next month, will be my 30th year of homebrewing and have seen and tried it all.

 

[Sandbrew]

Yeah, this statement is utterly ridiculous and perhaps shows a lack of knowledge on creating a good recipe for BIAB. Using no-sparge single vessel BIAB techniques and adjusting the grain bill 20%, I have won countless beer competition awards. As a point of reference: Next month, will be my 30th year of homebrewing and have seen and tried it all.

I was a little hesitant to accept that the brewing methodology would yield astringent flavors also.. Since plenty of people BIAB with no astringent reports. In all of your years experience, has this happened, or would you know what could most likely have caused it? It's possible the beer got infected and just took some time for the infection to be severe enough to notice.. However I'm diligent about cleanliness and have never had an infected beer. Perhaps during the dry hop process, when the carboy bung was removed something may have gotten in there?

 

[cubalz]

pH issues can definitely cause excessive tannins but as you said that your pH was between 5.5 - 5.6, I don't see that as being the cause. What water did you use? What brewing salts? What grain was used, how old was it? Regardless, I think that the culprit was cleaner residue in the keg. What do you use to clean your kegs? Do you tear apart the posts and poppets between fills? Sorry for all of the additional questions but more information may be helpful to find the smoking gun, so to speak.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yeah, this statement is utterly ridiculous and perhaps shows a lack of knowledge on creating a good recipe for BIAB. Using no-sparge single vessel BIAB techniques and adjusting the grain bill 20%, I have won countless beer competition awards. As a point of reference: Next month, will be my 30th year of homebrewing and have seen and tried it all.

For the record I also no sparge 95% of all my beers. So your statement is short sighted and brash. Winning awards only means your beer was better than the others it was against, which for all we know could have been 1. I have plenty of awards as well, including professional ones. Please calm down.


The flavor I get comes when grain husks contact heating elements. It's a flavor that doesn't happen when husks are removed. I think of it as a mild scorching, for lack of a better word. Squeezing the bag also brings out some weird flavors.

 

[Sandbrew]

pH issues can definitely cause excessive tannins but as you said that your pH was between 5.5 - 5.6, I don't see that as being the cause. What water did you use? What brewing salts? What grain was used, how old was it? Regardless, I think that the culprit was cleaner residue in the keg. What do you use to clean your kegs? Do you tear apart the posts and poppets between fills? Sorry for all of the additional questions but more information may be helpful to find the smoking gun, so to speak.

What water did you use? A: My home well water, same source as always.
What brewing salts? A: I typically put a heaping 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum. Did not adjust for no sparge water (might have been a mistake). Also forgot to add until roughly 15 minutes into mash (probably why pH ended in upper range).
What grain was used, how old was it? A: 11 LB 2 row, 3 LB flaked oats. Good question about age.. most likely 3 months ± 1-2 months. I buy base grain in bulk then store in a moisture controlled container. Keep in mind I brewed a wheat beer using same grain, currently tastes fine out of tap.
Regardless, I think that the culprit was cleaner residue in the keg. What do you use to clean your kegs? A: odor/taste free oxiclean powder, then rinse, then hit with starsan.
Do you tear apart the posts and poppets between fills? A: Maybe half of the time yes.. This time I don't remember doing that so I'll go with no.

 

[cubalz]

I am sorry, I just do not see anything that is glaringly obvious as an issue.

 

[Sandbrew]

I am sorry, I just do not see anything that is glaringly obvious as an issue.

It's all good.. I think I'll just chock it up to infection and call it a day :shrug: I was just looking for a sanity check

 

[doug293cz]

How many NE IPA's have you done, and did any last as long in the keg? What material are your beer and gas lines?

NE IPA's are notorious for oxidation sensitivity (although I don't recall reports of astringency being one of the flavor effects.) Time and O2 are the enemy of hoppy beers, and significant O2 can diffuse thru ordinary vinyl beer and gas lines. People are having good luck with EVA beer and gas lines, as the material allows much lower O2 diffusion, so O2 doesn't get into the keg/beer as fast.

If it is an infection, then having it not show up until after a few weeks wouldn't be unusual. Some organisms are slow acting compared to yeast. If you are at the point of giving up on the beer, you could open the keg and look for evidence of a pellicle on the surface of the beer.

Brew on

 

[w8av]

I would consider myself to have enough experience to be able to say that with my 3 different BIAB systems (1 homemade, and 2 braumeisters)and having had a 2 vessel, and now a three vessel. I am fanatical about beer quality, and I could never get a BIAB, to actually taste as good as a non. So the BIAB systems sit on my shelf.

I tend to agree although, I do BIAB. Scorching of husks and/or squeezing the grain bag could definitely extract tannins from the husks. I would try just letting the bag drain the next time.
There are also so many other things mentioned the could be the culprit, these two seem to be the obvious one here, since your answers to the other questions haven't thrown up any obvious red flags.
Just my .02

 

[doug293cz]

I tend to agree although, I do BIAB. Scorching of husks and/or squeezing the grain bag could definitely extract tannins from the husks. I would try just letting the bag drain the next time.
There are also so many other things mentioned the could be the culprit, these two seem to be the obvious one here, since your answers to the other questions haven't thrown up any obvious red flags.
Just my .02

Squeezing (or any physical pressure) causing tannin extraction is an old wives' tale. Tannin extraction is a chemical process that occurs at temps above ~170°F accompanied by pH above ~6.0. There is also some evidence that it can occur in very dilute wort at somewhat lower temps and pH. Such conditions should not occur when squeezing a BIAB bag.

Husk escape from a fine mesh (i.e. polyester voile) bag should be minimal. Coarser mesh bags are more likely to have an issue with husk escape.

Brew on

 

[Die_Beerery]

Squeezing (or any physical pressure) causing tannin extraction is an old wives' tale. Tannin extraction is a chemical process that occurs at temps above ~170°F accompanied by pH above ~6.0. There is also some evidence that it can occur in very dilute wort at somewhat lower temps and pH. Such conditions should not occur when squeezing a BIAB bag.Brew on

Word, just like HSA.

 

[Sandbrew]

How many NE IPA's have you done, and did any last as long in the keg? What material are your beer and gas lines?

NE IPA's are notorious for oxidation sensitivity (although I don't recall reports of astringency being one of the flavor effects.) Time and O2 are the enemy of hoppy beers, and significant O2 can diffuse thru ordinary vinyl beer and gas lines. People are having good luck with EVA beer and gas lines, as the material allows much lower O2 diffusion, so O2 doesn't get into the keg/beer as fast.

If it is an infection, then having it not show up until after a few weeks wouldn't be unusual. Some organisms are slow acting compared to yeast. If you are at the point of giving up on the beer, you could open the keg and look for evidence of a pellicle on the surface of the beer.

Brew on

At this point I've convinced myself it's infection. Although it hasn't gotten any worse.. still drinkable, so I think I'll power through this keg, I hate wasting beer .
That's interesting regarding vinyl hose.. All of my beer/gas lines are vinyl so I'll take that into consideration for next IPA. Another excuse to spend more money on brewing stuff LOL (As if I need an excuse).
Regarding your question about other NE IPA's I've done.. I've done maybe 7-10 others and this is the first time I've experienced this off-flavor in them. They do tend to lose quality after a month or so..

 

[Sandbrew]

Squeezing (or any physical pressure) causing tannin extraction is an old wives' tale. Tannin extraction is a chemical process that occurs at temps above ~170°F accompanied by pH above ~6.0. There is also some evidence that it can occur in very dilute wort at somewhat lower temps and pH. Such conditions should not occur when squeezing a BIAB bag.

Husk escape from a fine mesh (i.e. polyester voile) bag should be minimal. Coarser mesh bags are more likely to have an issue with husk escape.

Brew on

This is one of the myths debunked by the fine crew at brulosophy with one of their exBEERiments. Link below.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/22/br...ag-has-on-beer-character-exbeeriment-results/

 

[doug293cz]

This is one of the myths debunked by the fine crew at brulosophy with one of their exBEERiments. Link below.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/22/br...ag-has-on-beer-character-exbeeriment-results/

Since a lot of folks like to poo-poo Brulosophy Exbeeriments, I like to use a different example to debunk the squeezing myth. There are several large commercial breweries (Alaskan is one) that use hammer mills to totally pulverize the grain, and then use hydraulic or pneumatic filter presses to squeeze the max amount of wort out of the spent grains. These presses squeeze much harder than we possibly can. These breweries wouldn't use this process if it made astringent beer. They can also get mash efficiencies in the range of 97%.

Brew on

 

[Yooper]

A: My home well water, same source as always.
What brewing salts? A: I typically put a heaping 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum. Did not adjust for no sparge water (might have been a mistake). Also forgot to add until roughly 15 minutes into mash (probably why pH ended in upper range).
What grain was used, how old was it? A: 11 LB 2 row, 3 LB flaked oats.

What jumps out at me is well water may or may not be soft and may or may not be high in alkalinity. The reason that this jumped out at me is even with RO water, I don't see how that grainbill can give you a mash pH of 5.6-5.7. Although, since it tends to drop during the mash, I guess it could have started closer to 6.0 if those were the readings. How confident are you of the mash pH readings? A good pH meter, freshly calibrated, that doesn't drift?

My gut instinct is a high mash pH is to blame, and it becomes more obvious as hops flavor and aroma fades a bit. Oxidation, even a tiny bit, can accelerate those reactions so that could be it.

 

[Sandbrew]

Since a lot of folks like to poo-poo Brulosophy Exbeeriments, I like to use a different example to debunk the squeezing myth. There are several large commercial breweries (Alaskan is one) that use hammer mills to totally pulverize the grain, and then use hydraulic or pneumatic filter presses to squeeze the max amount of wort out of the spent grains. These presses squeeze much harder than we possibly can. These breweries wouldn't use this process if it made astringent beer. They can also get mash efficiencies in the range of 97%.

Brew on

Really? What's people's beef with the exbeeriments, just out of curiosity? Do they feel the results lack accuracy?

 

[Sandbrew]

A: My home well water, same source as always.
What brewing salts? A: I typically put a heaping 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum. Did not adjust for no sparge water (might have been a mistake). Also forgot to add until roughly 15 minutes into mash (probably why pH ended in upper range).
What grain was used, how old was it? A: 11 LB 2 row, 3 LB flaked oats.

What jumps out at me is well water may or may not be soft and may or may not be high in alkalinity. The reason that this jumped out at me is even with RO water, I don't see how that grainbill can give you a mash pH of 5.6-5.7. Although, since it tends to drop during the mash, I guess it could have started closer to 6.0 if those were the readings. How confident are you of the mash pH readings? A good pH meter, freshly calibrated, that doesn't drift?

My gut instinct is a high mash pH is to blame, and it becomes more obvious as hops flavor and aroma fades a bit. Oxidation, even a tiny bit, can accelerate those reactions so that could be it.

Yes.. I was also surprised with the pH reading. I use a Milwaukee MW101, which I calibrate roughly once-twice a year.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes.. I was also surprised with the pH reading. I use a Milwaukee MW101, which I calibrate roughly once-twice a year.

pH meters should be calibrated at every use. Some experts recommend calibrating before and after a brew session to insure that the meter hasn't drifted. There are some threads on pH meters in the "Brew Science" forum.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Really? What's people's beef with the exbeeriments, just out of curiosity? Do they feel the results lack accuracy?

This is not the thread to get into that, as it is a quick way to derail a thread. I know this because there are several other threads that that has happened to. And, it's those threads that led to my statement about some people not finding Brulosophy rigorous enough.

Brew on

 

[Yooper]

Yes.. I was also surprised with the pH reading. I use a Milwaukee MW101, which I calibrate roughly once-twice a year.

Twice on brewday? Or seriously once or twice a year? It should be calibrated immediately before using. Each brew day, and make sure there is no drift by keeping in in a buffer for a bit.

 

[Sandbrew]

Twice on brewday? Or seriously once or twice a year? It should be calibrated immediately before using. Each brew day, and make sure there is no drift by keeping in in a buffer for a bit.

Twice a year.. which I now know is not a good idea, thanks for the info. So when you say keep it in buffer for a bit, put the cap with storage solution back on after calibrating for like 10 minutes?

 

[Yooper]

Twice a year.. which I now know is not a good idea, thanks for the info. So when you say keep it in buffer for a bit, put the cap with storage solution back on after calibrating for like 10 minutes?

I rinse the probe with RO water after using, and then will stick it back in the calibration solution so I can check the pH again later in the mash or preboil/afterboil, etc. If it jumps around, then I recalibrate it. I don't put it back in the storage solution until brewday is over, the probe is rinsed, and ready to be put away.

 

[passedpawn]

When I got started, I got astringency all the time. It was like putting an unbuffered asprin in your mouth - a dry, slightly bitter sensation you felt more than you tasted.

Many years later now, but I believe it was caused by over-sparging - I was chasing efficiency back then and would sparge at least 4 times. I'm sure the pH was getting close to water at that point, and I probably caused tanin extraction. That's all a theory.

No idea if that applies to BIAB or your situation - just throwing out my 2¢. Gluck.

 

[doug293cz]

When I got started, I got astringency all the time. It was like putting an unbuffered asprin in your mouth - a dry, slightly bitter sensation you felt more than you tasted.

Many years later now, but I believe it was caused by over-sparging - I was chasing efficiency back then and would sparge at least 4 times. I'm sure the pH was getting close to water at that point, and I probably caused tanin extraction. That's all a theory.

No idea if that applies to BIAB or your situation - just throwing out my 2¢. Gluck.

A 4X batch sparge can get you in the SG range were tannin extraction becomes problematic. Almost impossible to do with a single or double batch sparge.

Brew on

 

[Sandbrew]

I rinse the probe with RO water after using, and then will stick it back in the calibration solution so I can check the pH again later in the mash or preboil/afterboil, etc. If it jumps around, then I recalibrate it. I don't put it back in the storage solution until brewday is over, the probe is rinsed, and ready to be put away.

Three last questions: Is it possible to re-use the calibration solution? As in, open the container, put probe in container, calibrate, then seal container back up? I haven't been doing it this way.. But I'd imagine I'll go through the solution rather quickly if I pour some out to calibrate each time.
Also, do you re-use the storage solution? I have been doing so...
Last Q: I calibrate with pH 7 and pH 4 solution.. do you calibrate with both each time, or just choose one?

 

[passedpawn]

Three last questions: Is it possible to re-use the calibration solution? As in, open the container, put probe in container, calibrate, then seal container back up? I haven't been doing it this way.. But I'd imagine I'll go through the solution rather quickly if I pour some out to calibrate each time.
Also, do you re-use the storage solution? I have been doing so...
Last Q: I calibrate with pH 7 and pH 4 solution.. do you calibrate with both each time, or just choose one?

Don't ever put anything into your cal solutions. Pour some out into a separate container, or a cap or something and test there. If you contaminate a cal solution yer screwed.

Here's some bulk cal solutions that I use. I cal every time I use my probe, which is a couple times a month. The calibration is good for a day - I've done stability testing on mine and while it does move around a bit, it's very small over a period of hours.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063MWYMQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Yooper]

Three last questions: Is it possible to re-use the calibration solution? As in, open the container, put probe in container, calibrate, then seal container back up? I haven't been doing it this way.. But I'd imagine I'll go through the solution rather quickly if I pour some out to calibrate each time.
Also, do you re-use the storage solution? I have been doing so...
Last Q: I calibrate with pH 7 and pH 4 solution.. do you calibrate with both each time, or just choose one?

Passedpawn has great advice. You have to calibrate with both. But you only need a tiny bit! Just enough to cover the probe in a shot glass.

The storage solution isn't a big as a deal.

 

[C-Rider]

Shoots, I don't even know what an astringent flavor is. Some judges had said some of my dark beers have it to some degree.

 

[doug293cz]

Shoots, I don't even know what an astringent flavor is. Some judges had said some of my dark beers have it to some degree.

Put a small pinch of alum on your tongue. That will give you some over the top astringency.

Brew on

 

[Sandbrew]

Passedpawn has great advice. You have to calibrate with both. But you only need a tiny bit! Just enough to cover the probe in a shot glass.

The storage solution isn't a big as a deal.

Great info.. Thanks. Planning to brew an Amber Ale this weekend, I'll be utilizing all the advice I got from here! Wish I joined this forum sooner now

 

[w8av]

Don't ever put anything into your cal solutions. Pour some out into a separate container, or a cap or something and test there. If you contaminate a cal solution yer screwed.

Here's some bulk cal solutions that I use. I cal every time I use my probe, which is a couple times a month. The calibration is good for a day - I've done stability testing on mine and while it does move around a bit, it's very small over a period of hours.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063MWYMQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

View attachment 676891

Passedpawn is totally right. Pour small amounts of the calibration solutions into small vessels, like shot glasses, do your calibrations, then throw the solutions away. Do not reuse them or return them to the original bottles. With care the shelf life of the buffers is about one year. You can also get the sachets which are single use and may be a bit cheaper.

I also have second set of shot glass handy to rinse the probe before calibration in the pH 7.0 buffer. I then gently shake and rinse the probe in some 4.0 before placing it in the "calibration vessel" of 4.0 for the second step. You do not need 10.0 buffer for brewing calibration, a two point calibration is sufficient. Save your money.

Also get a bottle of storage solution for the probe. It is potassium chloride and is the recommended way to store the probe. Do not store it in tap water, distilled/RO water, or even buffer solution. This will shorten the life of the probe. Storage solution is cheap and a small bottle will last you a quite while since you only need enough to cover the bulb of the probe. I calibrate once a month and change the storage solution at that time. I'd rather spend a few bucks on storage solution rather than between $60-70 on a new probe sooner than I have to.

Finally remember, that with good care, you will get two maybe three years out of your probe before you have to replace it. That is the nature of the beast. I have pushed one to about 3.5 years, but that is about it. You will know when the calibration steps take way longer to complete or you get an error message on the display. The probe in my Milwaukee SM-102 is starting to show signs of maybe needing replacement. It still calibrates but it is getting slower during the 4.0 step.

Hope this helps.

 

[C-Rider]

Put a small pinch of alum on your tongue. That will give you some over the top astringency.

Brew on

LOL Googled alum yea don't think I'm gonna go buy any just for a taste. Mahalo for the though., LOL

 

[passedpawn]

LOL Googled alum yea don't think I'm gonna go buy any just for a taste. Mahalo for the though., LOL

Got a styptic pencil? Get a few licks of that. (I was into wet shaving for a couple of years, really destroyed myself regularly, self-medicated all the time with the pencil).

 

[MattGuk]

I would consider myself to have enough experience to be able to say that with my 3 different BIAB systems (1 homemade, and 2 braumeisters)and having had a 2 vessel, and now a three vessel. I am fanatical about beer quality, and I could never get a BIAB, to actually taste as good as a non. So the BIAB systems sit on my shelf.

I'm fairly new to brewing, done it for a few years, took a break now back at it.
I have done various methods for AG, from cooler mash and fly sparging, cooler mash and batch sparging and also full volume, no sparge.
Now I'm doing BIAB with no sparge.
None of my brews have differed in quality to the point I would say something isn't worth trying again.
I have had astringent flavours before, but could never nail it down to a certain method or practice.
That said, I never check my mash PH ( lazy ) nor do I treat my water other than using sodium metabisulphite , maybe my water differs throughout the year, but saying BIAB isn't worth it is ridiculous.
I used to treat my water to a point and still got astringent flavours on the odd brew, then wouldn't happen until several brews later.
Lately my BIAB batches have been more than good enough to me and friends of mine without treating water other than, like I said, for chlorine/ chloramine