Are you mashing Crystal Malts and dark grains?

[GPNewBrew]

Getting ready to brew some Brown Ale and Stout and have read some info lately (including “Brewing Better Beer Master Lesson...”), and they talked about leaving Crystals and Dark Grains out of the mash and just adding them in and steeping, to avoid potential astringency and harshness in the finished beers. I’ve never tried this, always just combined all the grains in one mash, but I guess it makes sense after reading, particularly with darker grains.

What’s everyone else doing?

Thanks, Gary

 

[BigEd]

While this grain separation technique has been one of the trendier homebrewing topics of the last few years I don't see an issue. Dark grains lower the mash pH. The combination of a pH and temperature that is too high is one of the basic precursors to astringency. As long as your recipe is good and your water is properly adjusted for the beer's mash there should not be a problem. While this is strictly anecdotal I've been doing all grain mashes for 25 years and have never come close to experiencing this problem. I'd be amazed if you went to the Guinness brewery and they separated the roasted barley from the other grist when mashing.

 

[InspectorJon]

One advantage I have experienced to steeping dark grains was with a recent imperial stout. I do BIAB and my boil kettle doubles as my mash pot. I am limited to how much grain I can mash in my 7 gallon kettle. By splitting up the grains and cold steeping the roasted grains overnight in separate water it gave me enough room in the kettle to mash the rest of the grain. I then added the dark grain steeped wort to the mashed wort after I pulled the bag.

I don’t know if this had any effect on astringency but it allowed me to produce 6 gallons of high gravity preboil wort in a 7 gallon kettle.

 

[BrewMan13]

Never understood the whole cold steeping thing. Never done it, and brew multiple stouts/porters every year, and haven't experienced astringency. As was already mentioned: if your recipe, water chemistry, and process are good then there's nothing to worry about. FWIW, I target 10-12% roasted grains for those types of beers.

 

[Oginme]

There are two advantages to steeping versus mashing. The first, as InspectorJon pointed out is to be able to free yourself somewhat from a limitation of existing equipment. The second is that it simplifies the water chemistry involved in controlling mash pH.

Beyond that, it is a matter of personal choice. Since I brew predominantly BIAB batches, it is easier and fewer steps to put all the grains in at once and not have to worry about steeping grains separately.

Like BrewMan13, I have never run into astringency by mashing roasted or dark crystal grains.

 

[Lefou]

I mash crystal or dark grains but there's some compelling discussion about cold steeping by Gordon Strong and also some info about steeping on the Briess brewing blog on their website. There's no argument about Gordon Strong's success at making good beer but there's always room for discussing different methods that work.
If you're worried about limited volume in your mash kettle steeping could make a positive difference. My mash kettle is a stainless 7.5gal Anvil triclad capable of taking direct heat for step mashing and, on occasion, I also use a 5gal stainless pot for decoction or boiling depending on my beer. Brewing high gravity wort is an issue for me so I adjust grain levels or wort volumes accordingly.

 

[bracconiere]

i'm at a loss...what's the difference between steeping and mashing? i thought a mash was a steep? only thing i can think would be the dark grains don't have the enzymes to convert the starch to sugar. higher FG then?

 

[Lefou]

A mash will usually contain a base malt at saccharification temperatures for conversion and you're looking for a higher level of efficiency. With a steep you aren't so concerned with diastatic levels, conversion efficiency or an exacting range of temperatures because it's really intended for color, flavor, and body. If I recall correctly the Brewer's Friend calculator assumes about 35% efficiency for steeping grains in extract or partial mash worts.
I think you can do better than 35% brewhouse efficiency and flavor extraction with steeping grains if you get a good grind, similar to coffee, but then again, it's all personal preference.

 

[InspectorJon]

Roasted and crystal/caramel grains do not need conversion. The sugar is converted in the roasting process. Each grain undergoes its own personal mashing process during roasting. Steeping in cold water will extract the sugars and color into the cold water. Its kind of like making cold brew coffee but there is sugar in the grain. I shook up the grains and water several times during the 24 hour steep in room temperature water. I did not do the math to figure efficiency but my cold steep process yielded 1.040 pre-boil wort. Steeped 1.5 lb dark grins in 3 quarts of water and got 2.5 quarts of 1.040 wort.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's always a treat to reference an older, yet still interesting, HBT topic:

• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/
• http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/fermentability-of-crystal-malt.html

Roasted and crystal/caramel grains do not need conversion. The sugar is converted in the roasting process.

Be careful with generalizations. There are malts with *L in the 40s that must be mashed and have DP (for example Opal 44). Is this a crystal malt? caramel malt? a new category of malt?

i'm at a loss...what's the difference between steeping and mashing?

Adding to the confusion, there are a number of extract-based kits that will 'steep' base malts and flaked malts. Many people in homebrewing forums would call this a 'mini-mash'.

It may be safe to say that homebrewing forum convention would describe them as follows

• steep: soak grains in water to extract existing sugars, flavors, and colors; no enzymes are involved in the process (for simplicity, temperature range of the water has been omitted).
  
• mash: soak grains in water to convert starches into sugars; enzymes provided by base malts will convert starches into sugars (for simplicity, temperature range of the water has been omitted).

 

[bracconiere]

Roasted and crystal/caramel grains do not need conversion.

good point, you'd think i would have thought that......i do make my own malt, and mash in the kernel, before roasting for my crystals. so it'd just be Roast barley that would be best in the mash.....

(split mash idea is new to me also )

 

[GPNewBrew]

Hey all - original poster here. Thanks for all the comments, even though they drifted off topic to get into cold steeping and volume limitations and the like. Big Ed gave me some input I was looking for, related to Gordon Strong’s and other’s comments about getting astringency/harshness in their Brews caused by long mashing (or steeping if you will) their dark grains. For now, this time around, I’m going to go ahead and mash everything together. Maybe next time I’ll steep them when I sparge. Thanks

 

[bracconiere]

Adding to the confusion, there are a number of extract-based kits that will 'steep' base malts and flaked malts. Many people in homebrewing forums would call this a 'mini-mash'.

It may be safe to say that homebrewing forum convention would describe them as follows

• steep: soak grains in water to extract existing sugars, flavors, and colors; no enzymes are involved in the process (for simplicity, temperature range of the water has been omitted).
  
• mash: soak grains in water to convert starches into sugars; enzymes provided by base malts will convert starches into sugars (for simplicity, temperature range of the water has been omitted).

I know that in homebrewing, a steep is the term used when extract brewers use a bit of crystal....but to me when i mash my malt, it's basically a steep too...i just have to sparge.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I know that in homebrewing, a steep is the term used when extract brewers use a bit of crystal....but to me when i mash my malt, it's basically a steep too...i just have to sparge.

If one looks closely at the details of a "steep" and a "mash", they do have a lot in common.

I have the feeling that extract kits often steep at 150*F for 30 minutes so that one becomes comfortable with mashing at 150*F for 30 to 60 minutes. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The second is that it simplifies the water chemistry involved in controlling mash pH.

The thing that I have wondered about this...if holding back the dark grains from my mash will help keep me from dropping the pH too low, won't adding the steeped dark grains lower the pH of my wort and trickle down to a beer that is lower pH than desired. I have not ventured into testing or evaluating pH of finished beers, but I know Palmer recommends a higher finished pH for darker beers than lighter beers. (I have always added roasted grains into the mash.)

Roasted and crystal/caramel grains do not need conversion.

There is a pretty good thread around here with some compelling evidence that mashing crystal malts adds several gravity points. I could not find it with a quick search. I suspect the statement about Roasted grains is correct.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]There is a pretty good thread around here with some compelling evidence that mashing crystal malts adds several gravity points. I could not find it with a quick search. I suspect the statement about Roasted grains is correct.

Intuitively I agree with all of that - and specifically wrt "crystal" malts there will be some residual unconverted starch after the stewing process in inverse proportion to the Lovibond color that benefits from mashing...

Cheers!

 

[InspectorJon]

Intuitively I agree with all of that - and specifically wrt "crystal" malts there will be some residual unconverted starch after the stewing process in inverse proportion to the Lovibond color that benefits from mashing...

Cheers!

I am relatively new to this so I do not intend to represent as an expert. I was just repeating what I have read recently and what my experience was. The steeping method I was following called for steeping in room temperature water, mid to upper seventies for me at the time, for 24 hours. I have read that the enzymes that convert starch to sugar are active at any temperature up until they are denatured by to high of a temperature, just slower at low temperatures. We shoot for certain temperatures because the enzyme we are interested in are most active at those temperatures. I wonder if conversion could be taking place during the 24 hour room temperature steep?

 

[InspectorJon]

Double post

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I am relatively new to this so I do not intend to represent as an expert.

All good. I have never tried a 24 hour steep...and honestly I never payed much attention to the gravity points from steeping.

Here is the thread that I was thinking about...around page 3 is where the charts with data for all the tests are presented. The results show higher gravity points when mashing crystal with a base grain vs just masing crystal alone and shows some level of fermentability with crystal in general. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/

 

[mashpaddled]

This was a fairly popular idea when that first book came out but kind of faded out as water chemistry became more of a focus in homebrewing. I'm not sure how many people still do the whole dark grain steeping anymore but I'm sure it is still in the wild. If you don't want to deal with water chemistry it is not a terrible idea to make your brew day a little easier. If you adjust water profiles then there is not much of a point unless you are trying to split batches with the same base and different specialty malts.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Getting ready to brew some Brown Ale and Stout and have read some info lately (including “Brewing Better Beer Master Lesson...”), and they talked about leaving Crystals and Dark Grains out of the mash and just adding them in and steeping, to avoid potential astringency and harshness in the finished beers. I’ve never tried this, always just combined all the grains in one mash, but I guess it makes sense after reading, particularly with darker grains.

What’s everyone else doing?

Thanks, Gary

I always include deep roasted and caramel/crystal malts in my grist, mash them as for (and right along with) all other grist components, and compensate (if/as needed) for their high acidity via adding baking soda (or occasionally a combination of baking soda and slaked lime) up front to the mash water before doughing in. I've never experienced unusual harshness or astringency from deep roasted and/or caramel/crystal malts in my grist once these malts extra acidity has been properly addressed.

 

[micraftbeer]

I read this in Gordon Strong's book, Modern Homebrew Recipes. In there he didn't talk about making your mash all complicated like a separate vessel at room/cold temperature, he just recommended adding at vourlaf. While I agree I've been confused on how to target my mash pH, I can say that with this method I feel I get slightly less of an "edge" to my dark malt flavor. So depending on my recipe, if I'm looking for "smooth dark malt flavor" or "strong/sharp dark malt flavor", I'll either throw them in with the whole mash, or throw them in at Mashout so they're in there for about 10 minutes. I personally think it makes a difference, but I could have a preconceived bias from reading it and then trying it.

But I think you can get the same or most of the bang for your buck by not worrying about some separate "steeping" step and just keep them separate to toss in at the end of your mash.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The acidity of dark roasted and/or crystal malts does not somehow magically disappear due to adding them late. The extent to which said acidity does not present itself and also to which these malts/gains added late or steeped do not contribute the full extent of their character (thus giving the impression of more smoothness overall) correlates to the extent by which measurable mash efficiency is to be lost due to adding them late (and/or steeping them). The same effect could thereby be achieved by adding them up front, but merely adding much less of such malts/grains.

 

[micraftbeer]

The same effect could thereby be achieved by adding them up front, but merely adding much less of such malts/grains.

Interesting idea. It seems like you'd get less color effect, obviously. In addition, you reference a decrease in mash efficiency. But if the conversion efficiency of the caramel/roasted malts is already frozen at time of malting, then they should have a fixed gravity contribution whether they're in the mash for 10 minutes or 70 minutes, right?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I shook up the grains and water several times during the 24 hour steep in room temperature water.

Don't forget grain is covered with wild yeast and bacteria. Anyone using this process might get some tartness or wild yeast & bacterial flavors -- a "sour mash".

 

[Beer666]

I have never experienced astringency but I do think it reduces roastiness. I used to add it at the start of the boil but recently switched to when I add the chiller.
I don't always bother but as someone else said it helps with mashing larger batches in a small pot.
I leave mine in the fridge not at room temperature.

 

[thehaze]

I always mash Crystal and Roasted malts. If your water chemistry is good and you have the possibility to adjust it and check pH, then you shouldn't experience any issues. Although I've never tried reserving darker malts for the sparge or end of mash, I believe you would not get the same flavour, character and depth as with a full mash.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

....But if the conversion efficiency of the caramel/roasted malts is already frozen at time of malting, then they should have a fixed gravity contribution whether they're in the mash for 10 minutes or 70 minutes, right?

The efficiency (yield) from steeping caramel/crystal malts is nowhere near as good as for mashing them. See the chart about 3/4 of the way down this page:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/using_steeping_grains

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

...But if the conversion efficiency of the caramel/roasted malts is already frozen at time of malting, then they should have a fixed gravity contribution whether they're in the mash for 10 minutes or 70 minutes, right?

The efficiency (yield) from steeping caramel/crystal malts is nowhere near as good as for mashing them. See the chart about 3/4 of the way down this page:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/using_steeping_grains

Also: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/

Has anyone tried steeping crystal malts at 150*-ish with (and without) amylase (or similar enzymes)?

 

[micraftbeer]

The efficiency (yield) from steeping caramel/crystal malts is nowhere near as good as for mashing them. See the chart about 3/4 of the way down this page:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/using_steeping_grains

Interesting. In the words, he seemed to generalize that they don't need mashed and you can extract the sugars just by steeping, but the data in the table shows caramel malts have lower extract % when steeped than mashed, same for specialty malts except for the really dark (roasted, black patent malt).

From reading it, he seems to be indicating that is because of the lack of enzymes that are in a mash with base malts. So I wonder how those extract % numbers look when rather than steeping in a pot of hot water, you throw them in your mash, but only for the last 10 minutes?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

From reading it, he seems to be indicating that is because of the lack of enzymes that are in a mash with base malts. So I wonder how those extract % numbers look when rather than steeping in a pot of hot water, you throw them in your mash, but only for the last 10 minutes?

It appears that you will need to do a series of side by side comparisons. Or get Brulosophy to do them....