to mash or steep?

[Arbe0]

I have been looking at a chart that includes Diastatic power of grains. I am wondering if it has no Diastatic power if those are the ones that would be steeped in an all grain brew. For example I have a recipe that in only maris otter with Crystal 40, Crystal 120 and roasted Barley. If the Crystals and Barley don't have any Diastatic power would you only mash the Maris otter and steep the rest?
The list is found on Northern Brewer "Beer Grains: The compleate Guide for Homebrewers"

​

 

[wepeeler]

You can mash all together, add the dark grains late in mash, or steep the dark stuff into a tea and add to boil.

Funny that you posted this just now as I've been contemplating what to do for a Dark Mild tomorrow. Debating on mashing all together or adding late in the mash. Everything I'm reading is just mash everything together. Some people claim you get a smoother, less harsh flavor from adding dark grains later, but at risk of losing some flavor.

 

[VikeMan]

Mashing is something you do in a fairly narrow range of temperatures. The mash needs a diastatic base malt, to convert its own starches to sugars/dextrins, and to convert the starches in any non-base malts that may also happen to be in the mash.

Steeping is something that does not include base malts, and should only include ceratin specialty malts (like crystal and dark roasted malts) that have already had their starches converted. (In all grain brewing, these specialty malts are typically included in the mash, rather than steeped.)

 

[DBhomebrew]

Some people claim you get a smoother, less harsh flavor from adding dark grains later,

Control your mash pH per batch and you're good to go with everything at once.

Want to use the same water chemistry as your recent pale ale? Hold the dark grains to the end.

 

[day_trippr]

I have been looking at a chart that includes Diastatic power of grains. I am wondering if it has no Diastatic power if those are the ones that would be steeped in an all grain brew.

Can't generalize "zero DP/Lintner = steep" as there are grains with little to no diastatic power that can have their starches converted to fermentable sugars if other grains provide the saccharification enzymes. So you have to subset that generalization to find the grains that have no DP but also have very little to no convertible starches. As mentioned that subset consists of crystal/caramel and black malts...

Cheers!

 

[Arbe0]

a note: crystal and roasted barley will be added about 10 minutes before the sparge. This is the way I normally use the dark grains. In that the only grain I am mashing is the maris otter and others like i said 10 minues while 168 F mash out and sparge I was just wondering if that is the way to go. I do understand the mash gravity will be lower untill I add the steep grains (1.048 with steep grains and 1.051 if not steeping but adding all grains at the same time in the mash, per Beer Smith recipe.) I am assuming I will get the 1.051 gravity after I add the steep grains.

 

[VikeMan]

a note: crystal and roasted barley will be added about 10 minutes before the sparge. This is the way I normally use the dark grains. In that the only grain I am mashing is the maris otter and others like i said 10 minues while 168 F mash out and sparge I was just wondering if that is the way to go. I do understand the mash gravity will be lower untill I add the steep grains (1.048 with steep grains and 1.051 if not steeping but adding all grains at the same time in the mash, per Beer Smith recipe.) I am assuming I will get the 1.051 gravity after I add the steep grains.

Personally, I wouldn't call them "steep grains" if adding to the mash (regardless of how late). But you may find that you won't get as much flavor and fermentable sugars/non fermentable dextrins from those specialty malts if added very late in the mash, though you can more or less offset that by crushing those grains extra finely.

 

[Ninoid]

Maybe this chart will help you.

 

[Kickass]

If there’s room, they all go in the mash. For me

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Gorden Strong's books Brewing Better Beer and Modern Homebrew Recipes are a likely a primary source of information regarding "mash all recipes the same way by leaving out the dark malts" and "adding darker malts late in the mash". The books do explain why the author brewed this way. There are also references to older (early 2000s) research. And, for even more history, find a copy of the HBD mailing list.

Some people claim you get a smoother, less harsh flavor from adding dark grains later, but at risk of losing some flavor.

The claim is reasonably valid and isn't too hard to reasonably confirm.

There is a Zymurgy article (2002-ish?) written by a team at Briess where they tried different ways of steeping crystal / roasted malts and measured the results.

As a simple 'experiment', try cold steeping some different malts. Measure SG and observe color (use color as a proxy for flavor) every five minutes (then give it a quick stir) for 45 minutes. FWIW, I found color stop darkening at around 20 minutes.

 

[DBhomebrew]

(use color as a proxy for flavor)

That's a pretty weak proxy. A 30sec steep of strong black tea is a nicely dark insipid sip.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That's a pretty weak proxy. A 30sec steep of strong black tea is a nicely dark insipid sip.

Maybe steeping tea is a weak proxy for steeping malts?

With the malts I tried, I found that it took about 20 minutes to get to a stable color. SG (using refactometer) also stopped rising at around 20 minutes.

 

[MicroMickey]

I wrote an article about cold steeping some time back. It might bring out a few facts and clear up a few thoughts.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/cold-steeping/

 

[DBhomebrew]

Maybe steeping tea is a weak proxy for steeping malts?

 

[Ninoid]

A dark dehusked malt, such as Carafa Special, can be used to avoid the astringency of a full mash.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here are a couple of more recent (2019) articles with a framework for trying various steeping approaches.

• https://beerandbrewing.com/learning-lab-distinguishing-the-types-of-crystal-malt/
• https://beerandbrewing.com/the-heart-of-darkness-exploring-dark-malts/

The articles pair nicely with the 2002-ish Zymurgy article.

 

[wepeeler]

Gorden Strong's books Brewing Better Beer and Modern Homebrew Recipes are a likely a primary source of information regarding "mash all recipes the same way by leaving out the dark malts" and "adding darker malts late in the mash". The books do explain why the author brewed this way. There are also references to older (early 2000s) research. And, for even more history, find a copy of the HBD mailing list.


The claim is reasonably valid and isn't too hard to reasonably confirm.

There is a Zymurgy article (2002-ish?) written by a team at Briess where they tried different ways of steeping crystal / roasted malts and measured the results.

As a simple 'experiment', try cold steeping some different malts. Measure SG and observe color (use color as a proxy for flavor) every five minutes (then give it a quick stir) for 45 minutes. FWIW, I found color stop darkening at around 20 minutes.

I've read those and also anything I could online about adding the dark grains later in the mash. There doesn't seem to be any hard evidence, only hearsay. Kind of like a Brulosophy exbeeriment. The overall conclusion seems to be to use less harsh dark grain, such as Dehusked Carafa. I'm going with a full mash!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm going with a full mash!

With BIAB brewing, would be my choice as well.

With DME-based brewing, a short cold steep (while the water is heating) has some advantages that are outside the scope of this discussion.

I've read those and also anything I could online about adding the dark grains later in the mash. There doesn't seem to be any hard evidence, only hearsay.

The Zymurgy article involved actual tasting - with not a whiff of "hearsay".

I'm not sure what "hard science" is when it comes to flavors / aromas, but I suspect demanding it pretty much destroyed some sub-forum(s) at some discussion web sites.

 

[wepeeler]

With BIAB brewing, would be my choice as well.

With DME-based brewing, a short cold steep (while the water is heating) has some advantages that are outside the scope of this discussion.


The Zymurgy article involved actual tasting - with not a whiff of "hearsay".

I'm not sure what "hard science" is when it comes to flavors / aromas, but I suspect demanding it pretty much destroyed some sub-forum(s) at some discussion web sites.

Just started the mash!

Sorry, I didn't read the Zymurgy article. I'll try to find it now! Thanks for the info.

 

[Arbe0]

a note: crystal and roasted barley will be added about 10 minutes before the sparge. This is the way I normally use the dark grains. In that the only grain I am mashing is the maris otter and others like i said 10 minues whil e 168 F mash out and sparge I was just wondering if that is the way to go. I do understand the mash gravity will be lower untill I add the steep grains (1.048 with steep grains and 1.051 if not steeping but adding all grains at the same time in the mash, per Beer Smith recipe.) I am assuming I will get the 1.051 gravity after I add the steep grains.

Gorden Strong's books Brewing Better Beer and Modern Homebrew Recipes are a likely a primary source of information regarding "mash all recipes the same way by leaving out the dark malts" and "adding darker malts late in the mash". The books do explain why the author brewed this way. There are also references to older (early 2000s) research. And, for even more history, find a copy of the HBD mailing list.


The claim is reasonably valid and isn't too hard to reasonably confirm.

There is a Zymurgy article (2002-ish?) written by a team at Briess where they tried different ways of steeping crystal / roasted malts and measured the results.

As a simple 'experiment', try cold steeping some different malts. Measure SG and observe color (use color as a proxy for flavor) every five minutes (then give it a quick stir) for 45 minutes. FWIW, I found color stop darkening at around 20 minutes.

I have Gordon Strongs book aand have even brewed a few of his recpies. I have as great sucess with those recipies following the RO water and brewing salts to add and adding darker grains at the sparge. Today I am using Aurora Colorao water (award winning water) and one of the best to brew with.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’m brewing a huge RIS on Sunday. It’s a 12g batch with 3# of roasted barley, and several other dark malts. I always mash it all together. I tried the late additions and didn’t get the character I wanted. Shooting for a PH of 5.6 and rolling with it.

 

[VikeMan]

I have as great sucess with those recipies following the RO water and brewing salts to add and adding darker grains at the sparge. Today I am using Aurora Colorao water (award winning water) and one of the best to brew with.

RO plus salts (types and amounts depending on style/grain bill/personal preference) is a great way to build brewing water, both for mash pH considerations and for flavor. I'm sure Aurora water is delicious (since it wins awards), but no source water is ideal, or even close to ideal, for everything.

 

[Arbe0]

Maybe this chart will help you.

Just dowloaded the list, Very nicely put together. Thanks

 

[MicroMickey]

I read an article written by a woman with Briess Malting on the subject of Cold Steeping. I think it is on their website. Definitely worth the read.

 

[VikeMan]

In this article by Briess (written by Dan Bies, who I don't think is a lady), they looked at color extraction and "total solids" extraction for various malts in a 60 minute Cold Steep vs a Congress (mash) wort. Since the process being discussed in this thread is mainly about crystal/caramel and dark roasted malts, I'll just include their data here. Each cold steep percentage yield is given as a function of a Congress wort yield, i.e. think of the Congress yield as 100%.

Carapils: 95% of color, 32% of total solids
C20: 95% of color, 49% of total solids
C120: 77% of color, 43% of total solids
Chocolate: 69% of color, 70% of total solids

Proponents of cold steeping specialty malts, especially dark roasted malts, often talk about reduced astringency/bitterness as the reason for doing it. Some who have tried it say that there's less astringency/bitterness, but also less color and flavor. I think this is all consistent with the Briess results. Note the numbers above for Chocolate malt (the only dark roasted malt tested). With the cold steep, there's considerably less "stuff" being extracted from the malt. But... since you're getting less color and flavor, how do you fix that? Well, you can increase the amount of malt used, thus also increasing astringency/bitterness (as compared to the lesser amount of malt). Is there a point where the color and flavor are equivalent to the mashed wort, but astringency/bitterness has still been reduced overall? Maybe. Cold steep fans would probably say yes, because the temperature was lower and the pH would have been lower (compared to a normal mash), so less tannins were extracted. And they may be right, but more malt was used, so who knows?

The above discussion applies to cold steeping, but I think it largely could apply to late addition of malts to the mash and to "capping" the mash just before sparging. i.e. processes that extract less stuff, which can be compensated for by using more malt. Is there really a net benefit, and if so, is the juice worth the squeeze?

 

[Miraculix]

Award winning water.........


This water is the most watery water of all times. It is so watery, you have never experienced such a well defined wateryness!

So watery! It's surely an award winning water.

Water.

Wins awards.

It's water water. The water of all waters.

Want some water? Try award winning water. It's so water, it will water all water into the water

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Brewing Better Beer ("Handing Dark Grains" section) attributes some of the ideas in that section to article(s) by Mary Anne Gruber of Briess.

https://www.homebrewersassociation....steeping-getting-the-most-out-of-dark-grains/

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=36491.0

Zymurgy Jan 2002, p 49

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There are also a couple of hot steep method articles at the briess site.

 

[InspectorJon]

The attached picture is a screen shot from this article on More Beer's website by John Palmer. It indicates there is a benefit to mashing crystal grains. Generally, the lighter the roast greater the difference in extract. The fourth column indicates extract points when mashed with base malt to provide enzymes. The 5th (far right) column shows extract with only steeping.

 

[InspectorJon]

I would set the method as mash.

• see: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/
• summary: http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/fermentability-of-crystal-malt.html

This may also be of interest in the subject being discussed. This post on page three of the HBT thread referenced by @BrewnWKopperKat more or less wraps up the results and shows that there are convertible starches in a lot of crystal and roasted malt that would benefit from mashing if one wants to keep unconverted starch out of the wort and/or wants to add more fermentabilityto the wort.

 

[MicroMickey]

The article I referred to is by Mary Anne Gruber at Briess.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The attached picture is

Nice find!

A very similar table (with a PPG steep column) is in 3rd edition of How To Brew (Table 27: Typical Malt Yields in PPG). In 4th edition Table 18.5 apparently drops the PPG steep column for PKL mash values.

eta: and nice to see confirmation of the "Testing fermentability of crystal malt" article!