anyone fermented a hefeweizen with Mangrove Jack M20?

[twd000]

picked up ingredients for a Bavarian Hefeweizen yesterday. LHBS did not have Munich Classic, so I fell back to Mangrove Jack M20:

https://bsghandcraft.com/mangrove-jacks-craft-series-yeast-m20-bavarian-wheat-10g
having trouble finding what strain this is equivalent to - is it repackaged Munich Classic? Or Munich? (their witbier strain)

@dmtaylor spreadsheet says its not Munich Classic, or Munich Regular, not WB-06, not WLP300, not WYEAST 3068. So what is it?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit#gid=1846233287
MJ says "Deliciously smooth, light golden in colour, full bodied aromas of vanilla and banana and a lingering aftertaste. This yeast produces a silky mouth feel and rich body.

Suitable for brewing Hefeweizen, Kristal Weizen, Dunkel Weizen and more.

Attenuation: Medium

Flocculation: Low"

funny that they list the color on the yeast package. What if I pitch it into a Dunkelweizen?!

planning to do open fermentation on this one, in a keg. What temperature do you recommend?

 

[dmtaylor]

Scroll over to the right. It's Mauribrew Weiss.

And I recommend the following guidance:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[twd000]

I guess that is a clue, but I find even less info on Mauribrew. Never heard of the company nor seen their product in stores. Very few reviews online

You sure it's a match? MJ lists 70-75% attenuation for M20, Mauribrew lists 77-82% for Weiss. I understand there's a range based on grist and recipe, but the ranges don't even overlap.

70% attenuation sounds too low for Bavarian Hefeweizen style

 

[dmtaylor]

Both Mauri and Mangrove Jack are from Australia. It's the Aussies telling us that the two are linked.

Please let me know what attenuation YOU get from your M20. Maybe you'll get 76% which would match neither one!

 

[twd000]

actually Mangrove Jack was founded and headquartered in New Zealand, not Australia. It's like a whole different island.

So geographic proximity is the only evidence for linking them? Any idea what yeast bank collection the M20 came from? I wonder if it's just a dry version of 3068?

 

[dmtaylor]

actually Mangrove Jack was founded and headquartered in New Zealand, not Australia. It's like a whole different island.

So geographic proximity is the only evidence for linking them? Any idea what yeast bank collection the M20 came from? I wonder if it's just a dry version of 3068?

Sorry, a 10-second Google search failed me again. I kind of thought they were NZ but wasn't sure, and then Google lied to me.

Anything is possible. Unfortunately, nobody really knows except MJ, and they ain't talking.

 

[beersk]

I've brewed with this yeast a couple of times and have gotten poor attenuation on every batch brewed. The flavor, however, was always super good. Lots of banana and clove, not super phenolic or bubblegummy. Not sure I'll use it again though, the attenuation issue is problematic for me.

 

[lumpher]

I like that yeast for my Hefe's, and I'm a Hefe fan. Ferment about 62, then after 4 days raise to 68. That's what I do with it, and I'm not disappointed.

 

[dwhite60]

I've had M20 start back to working a week after it appeared to be finished. Give it extra time.

 

[Protos]

Just to add some statistics:
I did 4 batches with M20.
80%, 66%, 69%, 70% attenuations. Tried both cold and warm fermentation temps. Water profiles and mashing schedules as suggested in the BrauMagazin artcile linked above. Whatever's the temp, the esters/phenols come out very faint. Not impressed at all.
Lalbrew Munich [Classic] is better. Though not much better.

 

[dmtaylor]

Just to add some statistics:
I did 4 batches with M20.
80%, 66%, 69%, 70% attenuations. Tried both cold and warm fermentation temps. Water profiles and mashing schedules as suggested in the BrauMagazin artcile linked above. Whatever's the temp, the esters/phenols come out very faint. Not impressed at all.
Lalbrew Munich [Classic] is better. Though not much better.

Thanks, Anonymous Crow. And, sorry to hear it's so mild.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Just to add some statistics:
I did 4 batches with M20.
80%, 66%, 69%, 70% attenuations. Tried both cold and warm fermentation temps. Water profiles and mashing schedules as suggested in the BrauMagazin artcile linked above. Whatever's the temp, the esters/phenols come out very faint. Not impressed at all.
Lalbrew Munich [Classic] is better. Though not much better.

Have you had krausen like this after 24 hours with your M20 batches?

This is about 12L of a 1.052 hefeweizen in a 22L fermenter. Pitched .4g/L of Mauribrew Weisse about 24 hours ago, temp is a controlled 21C/70F.

Unfortunately, the krausen is so white and fluffy that I don't think top-cropping would get me much actual yeast.

Anyway, there's been some discussion whether M20 could be Mauri Weiss. Did any of yours look like this?

 

[ghpeel]

Hey ebbelwoi, what kind of fermentor is that? Are you doing pressurized fermentations and/or No Chill?

 

[ebbelwoi]

Well, since you asked...

It's an HDPE water tank I found in the camping/disaster/emergency section of the local hardware store (in Japan). I've been using and tweaking them for years, but I think this is the version I've settled on.

It's got one large (105mm/4-1/4") and one small (50mm/2") lid. I drilled 12mm (1/2") holes in each lid and added a gas bulkhead to the large lid and a liquid bulkhead to the small lid.

It's like a no-chill cube, but I prefer to chill my wort. It doesn't handle pressure well, as it starts to balloon up with more than a few psi. I attach an airlock or blowoff tube to the gas bulkhead during fermentation.

When it's time to cold crash, I tip it on its side so that the small lid is at the bottom. I keep it on an angle at first so that the yeast and trub slide down to the bottom. During the cold crash, the walls start to get sucked inward, so I add a little CO2 as necessary. By removing the airlock and keeping the tank airticght, I don't have to worry about suckback.

Then I do a closed gravity transfer by connecting a purged keg, gas-to-gas and liquid-to-liquid.

The wider opening at the larger lid makes it easy to pour (cooled) wort directly from the kettle into the fermenter, and it's also easy to get my hand in there for cleaning, if necessary. If I want to top-crop the yeast, I can do that, too. I can purge the fermenter with CO2 after top-cropping the yeast or after dry-hopping.

Being airtight, I can transport the fermenter easily, even during fermentation, by removing the airlock or blowoff tube and picking it up by the handle. It's also easy to rouse the yeast in the same manner.

The tank cost about US$8, and I think the bulkheads were about $12 for the pair. I'm pretty happy with the setup.

 

[Protos]

Did any of yours look like this?

Frankly, I don't understand from the picture how thick the Kräusen is. Is it filling up the whole headpace?
With M20, I remember it to be not much thick (like an inch), dense and sticky, perfect for top-cropping.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Frankly, I don't understand from the picture how thick the Kräusen is. Is it filling up the whole headpace?
With M20, I remember it to be not much thick (like an inch), dense and sticky, perfect for top-cropping.

Sorry, the perspective isn't very good in the first photo. In the second photo (side view), you can see that the braune hefe made it up to the top of the fermenter, just under the handle. Looks like it was a mountain of kräusen, since it appeared to be considerably lower on the sides.

I'm starting to have my doubts whether M20 and Mauri Weiss are really the same. Different attenuation rates, different performance. This batch with Mauri gave me 74.2% apparent attenuation. The pitch rate was about .5g/L. The mash temps were a 20-minute ferulic acid rest at 45C/113F, and a 75-minute rest at 68C/154F. I'm going to lower that to 66C for the next batch and see whether that AA doesn't rise a few points.

The beer turned out really well. Plenty of clove, fruitiness somewhat restrained, but still a balanced beer overall. Quite similar in aroma and flavor to a Paulaner, which is what I was aiming for. The most interesting thing about the beer is that I had to order the yeast from an online homebrew shop in Taiwan, as I couldn't find it in Japan. After trying this batch, I ordered 5 more packets.

 

[Protos]

Nice to hear you liked Mauri Weiss so much!
I'm still yet to find a satisfactory dry yeast for Weizens. Fermentis WB06 is a joke, M20 in my experience worked underwhelming, Lalbrew Munich was just a bit better, now I'm planning to test Gozdawa Bavarian Wheat. No Mauri Weiss available to me, unfortunately.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Nice to hear you liked Mauri Weiss so much!
I'm still yet to find a satisfactory dry yeast for Weizens. Fermentis WB06 is a joke, M20 in my experience worked underwhelming, Lalbrew Munich was just a bit better, now I'm planning to test Gozdawa Bavarian Wheat. No Mauri Weiss available to me, unfortunately.

I've read about Gozdawa but that one's not available to me. Maybe post your results when the time comes?

Any chance you're in Germany? I've seen quite a few posts about Mauri Weiss on the hobbybrauer forum.

 

[Protos]

Will post the results, definitely. Then more, the opinions on Gozdawa BW on Polish forums are split: some think it's a repacked M20 and some suggest it might be Mauri Weiss.

I've read the Gozdawa thread on the hobbybrauer forum, they use Gozdawa BW too, though their opinions seem to be even less conclusive than those of the Poles. The only answer is to try it myself.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Every time I do a search for Mauri Weiss, this place shows up:
https://twojbrowar.pl/en/beer-ingredients/brewing-yeasts/mauribrew-weiss-y1433

 

[Protos]

Yeah, they have MW in Poland, as well as in Germany. I'm in neither country, I reside currently in the Lands of Infidels. I have quite a choise of (exclusively dry) yeasts, no Mauries though.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm starting to have my doubts whether M20 and Mauri Weiss are really the same. Different attenuation rates, different performance. This batch with Mauri gave me 74.2% apparent attenuation.

I am intrigued and trying to look into this. There is at least one thread on hobbybrauer that suggests two different yeasts being used for the M20 repacks, one being lighter and one darker. This would explain some inconsistencies and really makes me wonder whether Mangrove Jack might in fact trade off sourcing between Mauri and Lallemand Munich Classic. But it's also entirely possible that the quality from just a single source will vary, whether based on the actual manufacture, or the shipping or storage conditions.

https://hobbybrauer.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26073&p=403984&hilit=m20#p403984

 

[ebbelwoi]

I am intrigued and trying to look into this. There is at least one thread on hobbybrauer that suggests two different yeasts being used for the M20 repacks, one being lighter and one darker. This would explain some inconsistencies and really makes me wonder whether Mangrove Jack might in fact trade off sourcing between Mauri and Lallemand Munich Classic. But it's also entirely possible that the quality from just a single source will vary, whether based on the actual manufacture, or the shipping or storage conditions.

https://hobbybrauer.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26073&p=403984&hilit=m20#p403984

Sounds to me like the OP in that thread just got a bad packet of yeast. He says it was dark brown, and gave him a sour beer. There wasn't much discussion, either.

If an entire batch of M20 turned out dark brown and produced sour beer, wouldn't we have heard about it by now?

I also can't imagine M20 being Munich Classic (attenuation, performance, aroma/flavor). I don't know of any other weizen yeast that has such low attenuation.

Since you're intrigued, why don't you just do some one-gallon split batches with some DME and get some answers? The beer wouldn't even have to be that good. I just think you need more to go on than geography and hunches.

 

[dmtaylor]

Since you're intrigued, why don't you just do some one-gallon split batches with some DME and get some answers? The beer wouldn't even have to be that good. I just think you need more to go on than geography and hunches.

I agree. I should. Eventually.

 

[Arimanari]

Have you had krausen like this after 24 hours with your M20 batches?

View attachment 775374


View attachment 775375

This is about 12L of a 1.052 hefeweizen in a 22L fermenter. Pitched .4g/L of Mauribrew Weisse about 24 hours ago, temp is a controlled 21C/70F.

Unfortunately, the krausen is so white and fluffy that I don't think top-cropping would get me much actual yeast.

Anyway, there's been some discussion whether M20 could be Mauri Weiss. Did any of yours look like this?

Every time I've used M20 I get a krausen very similar, if not exactly like this. It's white and fluffy and A LOT, but when it drops, it becomes like this:

The first time I used it, it was a 25L batch (6-7 gallons) and it produced probably the best hefe I've ever done with dry yeast, it was almost on par with every liquid strain I've tried before. But since I began doing larger 25-30 gallon batches (we're a big family!) it either didn't perform as good or something changed with that yeast.
What you see in this picture is 70% wheat, 30% pils at ~ 12 IBU with Tettnanger, SRM 3.5-4 (even if it doesn't look like it).
I've also began having attenuation problems, including with this batch. Pitched at 63-64, stayed at 68 for 48 hours then heated up quickly to ~74 and stayed there for a day. Now dropped back to 68 and staying there. Current attenuation 62%. I'll give it a week more but I don't really like leaving low IBU low alcohol beer staying for too long in fermenter. It's asking for trouble.

 

[buggslife]

Every time I've used M20 I get a krausen very similar, if not exactly like this. It's white and fluffy and A LOT, but when it drops, it becomes like this:
View attachment 781935
The first time I used it, it was a 25L batch (6-7 gallons) and it produced probably the best hefe I've ever done with dry yeast, it was almost on par with every liquid strain I've tried before. But since I began doing larger 25-30 gallon batches (we're a big family!) it either didn't perform as good or something changed with that yeast.
What you see in this picture is 70% wheat, 30% pils at ~ 12 IBU with Tettnanger, SRM 3.5-4 (even if it doesn't look like it).
I've also began having attenuation problems, including with this batch. Pitched at 63-64, stayed at 68 for 48 hours then heated up quickly to ~74 and stayed there for a day. Now dropped back to 68 and staying there. Current attenuation 62%. I'll give it a week more but I don't really like leaving low IBU low alcohol beer staying for too long in fermenter. It's asking for trouble.

I remember some history on this yeast in this thread...

Thread 'Mangrove Jack's M20 Bavarian Wheat yeast advice' Mangrove Jack's M20 Bavarian Wheat yeast advice