Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't know much about how these la chancea yeasts work and how the definitionof attenuation applies to them.

It's Lachancea, I assume named after Marc-André Lachance, a Canadian biologist who has done a lot of work on yeast systematics and the yeasts involved in the relationships between flowers and their pollinators.

If you see people talking about attenuation, then that implies sugars are turning into alcohol. Some may be diverted into lactate (as humans do when burning glucose when running for instance), but it's mostly alcohol. Vaquero et al 2020 looked at different strains of L. thermotolerans to help bring some acidity to "freshen up" wine from hot climates and found that they produced 7-11% alcohol in must that went to 12% with a "normal" wine yeast. They also suggest that co-fermenting Lachancea with the normal wine yeast gave the best complexity. You can't always read across from what happens in must to beer, but might be worth a go?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

It's Lachancea, I assume named after Marc-André Lachance, a Canadian biologist who has done a lot of work on yeast systematics and the yeasts involved in the relationships between flowers and their pollinators.

If you see people talking about attenuation, then that implies sugars are turning into alcohol. Some may be diverted into lactate (as humans do when burning glucose when running for instance), but it's mostly alcohol. Vaquero et al 2020 looked at different strains of L. thermotolerans to help bring some acidity to "freshen up" wine from hot climates and found that they produced 7-11% alcohol in must that went to 12% with a "normal" wine yeast. They also suggest that co-fermenting Lachancea with the normal wine yeast gave the best complexity. You can't always read across from what happens in must to beer, but might be worth a go?

Thanks for sharing the info! As far as co fermentations go, I do gotta say, of the three finished batches I've done so far with Philly Sour; my favorite batch so far has been the one that I fermented with some Brettanomyces and Lallemand dry Abbaye yeast after the initial few days of souring had finished. I also added dextrose and lactose to the boil which I think played a role in adding to the complexity of flavors I got.

 

[beervoid]

Thanks for sharing the info! As far as co fermentations go, I do gotta say, of the three finished batches I've done so far with Philly Sour; my favorite batch so far has been the one that I fermented with some Brettanomyces and Lallemand dry Abbaye yeast after the initial few days of souring had finished. I also added dextrose and lactose to the boil which I think played a role in adding to the complexity of flavors I got.

Was there any fruit in the brett batch?
Did you transfer the beer to another vessel after adding Brett or just let it age on the yeast and fruit?

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Was there any fruit in the brett batch?
Did you transfer the beer to another vessel after adding Brett or just let it age on the yeast and fruit?

No fruit in the batch and no transfer. I pitched the Philly Sour after chilling the wort to room temperature. On day four I pitched the brett and the abbaye yeast together. I bottled after about 17 days with a little less than 1/2 cup of table sugar just in case the brett started working hard on the lactose in the bottle so I don't get no bombs.

 

[t1m1]

I've just added 2.5 kg blueberries into 20 liters of wort fermented for one week with Philly Sour. Wil let you know what is happening after few days.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Just brewed my sour IPA a couple hours ago, it has krausen already and some activity, I guess lactic acid production is already going on

 

[couchsending]

Just took an almost fully carbed sample of my second beer with this yeast. This one is a little worse and I’m not sure why.

Both ferments have created this almost tobacco like aroma. It’s earthy and honestly really hard to describe. Both ferments were right around the same gravity, 1.044. Pitched 1 pack into 5.5 gallons both times. First was fermented at 68 ambient. Never got above 72 measured internal and second ferment was done at 72 controlled.

Both ferments seemed to stop at 1.013 and around 3.3ph (I’d have to look at my notes on exact pH measurements). Yeast has started to flocc and beers were shockingly clear. (About 7 days in)

I added a considerable amount of fruit to both beers and gravity dropped to 1.007 and sub 3.2ph on both after refermentation. First was organic raspberries that had been frozen for a while then thawed and added. 2nd was a blend of blackberries and blueberries that went through the same process.

I was intrigued by the first one as the earthiness seemed to compliment the raspberries and the tannic aspect of the seeds. Much more depth of character than a typical kettle sour beer.

This one still needs a bit of time before final judgment but that earthiness is more distracting in this one.

I did add 2% dextrose to the first ferment. I did not on the second. First was pils/30% oats. Second was Pils/30% wheat. I did add a small dose of Mosaic to the WP on the second where as the first just had a small dose of noble hops in the kettle.

I’m clearly having no issues with souring using 1 pack. However I’m definitely not getting any sort of stone fruit character. To me this yeast definitely smells “wild” during its ferment which tends to calm down as it finishes. Closest thing I can describe are some of my spontaneous fermentation attempts with both having that red apple aspect to them.

I really want to like this yeast and if I could figure out a way to get more stone fruit and less red apple/earth I’d be stoked. I’m going to try 2 packs next time I just as a little worried it’ll get too sour, which I don’t want. Anyone tried adding some sort of buffer to the wort before pitching to prevent sourness?

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Took a sample of mine just now, it's sour but not sharp, it's a really rounded sourness, I'm on day 3 so I wanted to check how it was going and if there is any flavour present, right now is pure orange and peach juice, the orange and grapefruit might be coming from the hops.

I'm really hyped now to taste the final result after fermentation and the dry hop

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Today I took another sample because the souring phase is probably finishing so I wanted to see how much sugar it uses for the acid production.

I got an SG of .009 points lower than the OG, I don't know what pH I have because my cheap pH meter just shows random values that change all the time, so not valuable data. But it seems that it went for the glucose I added and has left intact all the malt sugars, interesting.

Sensory speaking, the sourness tastes like freshly squeezed unsweetened orange juice, maybe a bit more sour but it definitely has the same edge to it. I guess I will get even more ester production once the ethanol production starts but I'm already happy with the results and it stills need to have alcohol and a dose of dry hops, I guess the sour perception will go lower as the sweetness goes lower too

 

[John Meerse]

About 6 weeks ago I brewed this:

Tart mango beer fermented with Philly Sour.
Intended 5 gal batch:
4lbs 3oz white wheat malt
2lbs 2oz 2-row
2lbs 2oz pilsner
8oz dextrose
1 oz Huell Melon
60 min mash at 150F. No boil, brought to 185F for 15 minutes, chilled to 64F, pitched two packs of Philly Sour straight into the fermenter, without rehydrating. Temp rose to 68F during fermentation. Added 6 lbs mango that was frozen, thawed, boiled/simmered then pureed on day 7. Managed to keg 4 gals on day 25. Final pH 3.32. OG 1.041, FG 1.005.
Tart, not too sour, nice mango in the background. Pours with nice head, but that disappears after 1 min or so.

I've made this beer before as a kettle sour with Goodbelly - the sourness of this is a little more interesting than previous versions, but I'm hard pressed to say there's a big difference. What I really like is that my brew day was over in 1 day for this beer, rather than stretching out over 2 days for the kettle sour version.

I saved half of the yeast cake and spent fruit, and used that to ferment a sour IPA. While the pH dropped to ~4.0, it did not get "sour." I guess repitching is out of the question. I know Lallemand says you can't repitch, but I wanted to see if that was truth, or just marketing. I don't really like buying yeast for a single beer, so I'll probably go back to the Goodbelly method.

 

[crusader1612]

anyone done something similar to this?
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/11/extract-sour-stout-on-blackberries-and.html
My idea has been brewing for awhule, had the plan to do a kettle sour originally, and add fruit / dryhops.

the idea being to dryhop with Styrian goldings.
and use some form of fruit in addition, or not at all (LOL).

Thoughts on this team??

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Love the faux Berliner I made with this strain, though head retention is very average. Anybody else had issues? It’s not a huge deal really but would like it to be better if possible

Damn iPhone

 

[stealthfixr]

I am very interested to know if anyone's tried co-fermentation with Brett??

I know that Lallemand doesn't recommend co-fermentation with Philly Sour, or at least with 'normal' yeasts that progress at a much more rapid rate and would overtake any PS contributions. However, Brett can be much slower, and PS really makes most of the souring contribution in the first few days, should Brett take center stage. And, both like similar temps.

I am curious how more 'complex' the souring would be after from pitching both, months later (but still far shorter than traditional souring). Just a thought...

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

I am very interested to know if anyone's tried co-fermentation with Brett??

I know that Lallemand doesn't recommend co-fermentation with Philly Sour, or at least with 'normal' yeasts that progress at a much more rapid rate and would overtake any PS contributions. However, Brett can be much slower, and PS really makes most of the souring contribution in the first few days, should Brett take center stage. And, both like similar temps.

I am curious how more 'complex' the souring would be after from pitching both, months later (but still far shorter than traditional souring). Just a thought...

I did a cofermentation with Brett and a sacc strain (lallemand abbaye), I let the philly sour do it's thing for a few days before I pitched them though. My recipe was just a modified Rodenbach clone recipe, definitely helped pull out more stonefruit and less apple flavors but that could have been the additional glucose I added during the boil as well.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

I am very interested to know if anyone's tried co-fermentation with Brett??

I know that Lallemand doesn't recommend co-fermentation with Philly Sour, or at least with 'normal' yeasts that progress at a much more rapid rate and would overtake any PS contributions. However, Brett can be much slower, and PS really makes most of the souring contribution in the first few days, should Brett take center stage. And, both like similar temps.

I am curious how more 'complex' the souring would be after from pitching both, months later (but still far shorter than traditional souring). Just a thought...

Definitely was more complex than the beers where I've just pitched philly by itself. Lots more pineapple flavors coming out as the beer has aged in the bottle for more than a few weeks now.

 

[beervoid]

Definitely was more complex than the beers where I've just pitched philly by itself. Lots more pineapple flavors coming out as the beer has aged in the bottle for more than a few weeks now.

Which brett did you pitch?
I got one going now, pitched the brett after fermentation calmed down on day 5 or so.
I find that with higher gravity beers philly doesnt attenuate that much so there is plenty for brett to chew on.

 

[BlackfyreBrewing]

Which brett did you pitch?
I got one going now, pitched the brett after fermentation calmed down on day 5 or so.
I find that with higher gravity beers philly doesnt attenuate that much so there is plenty for brett to chew on.

I used WLP653 brett Lambicus, I wanted to try the brux but I had to go with what the brew store had in stock. And you're right about it with high gravity beers that's why I pitched the abbaye yeast, I mashed at a high temp to make some more complex sugars for the brett.

 

[isomerization]

Haven’t tasted pre-dry hop sample (all Nelson) yet, but wanted to share my observations so far. Two packs of Philly Sour into ~7 gal of 1.048 wort (5% dextrose).

Started out at 68F, quick start with 1/2” krausen, but activity fell off after a day or so. Bumped temp to 72F and the yeast was much happier. Shocked at the difference in ferm rate, so wanted to share.

 

[stealthfixr]

I found Philly Sour really like temps above 70F, and was clean all the way up to 77F (with slight pressure ~3 PSI).

 

[Kenmoron]

Haven’t tasted pre-dry hop sample (all Nelson) yet, but wanted to share my observations so far. Two packs of Philly Sour into ~7 gal of 1.048 wort (5% dextrose).
View attachment 709387
Started out at 68F, quick start with 1/2” krausen, but activity fell off after a day or so. Bumped temp to 72F and the yeast was much happier. Shocked at the difference in ferm rate, so wanted to share.

This may not be as temp-related of a curve as you might think. In the initial lab fermentations they also showed that Philly Sour had a biphasic curve...the initial phase is where the yeast focuses more on acid production, whereas the latter phase it is focused more on alcohol production. That being said, all yeasts ferment faster at higher temps.

Definitely was more complex than the beers where I've just pitched philly by itself. Lots more pineapple flavors coming out as the beer has aged in the bottle for more than a few weeks now.

Really excited to pitch some Philly Sour with Brett soon. I don’t want ‘sour’ but want ‘tart’ so might be attempting a co-pitch to get somewhere in the 3.7-3.9 range if I can.

 

[HopsAreGood]

So I’m getting ready to try this out. I’m going to make an extract beer simply because it’s quick and easy. Here’s my tentative plan:

3 pounds of wheat extract
3 pounds of light Pilsen extract
.5 pounds of dextrose (hopefully brings out more of the stone fruit/fruity notes)

Going to pitch 2 packs of the philly sour and hold the temp at 75 the whole time in order to hopefully bring out some more of those fruity notes as well.

I’m then going to add 10 oz. of this:

https://amoretti.com/collections/craft-purees/products/raspberry-craft-puree?variant=6348476350496
They recommend between 1-3 oz per gallon, so I’m going to split it down the middle. I’m considering two ways of adding the fruit:

1. Adding it directly to the fermenter when fermentation has nearly or completely finished.

2. Adding it directly to the keg to mix in with the fully fermented beer.

Any thoughts on which way would be better and why would be greatly appreciated.

I’m also considering doing some light dry hopping for an extra dimension as well.

Thanks!

 

[beervoid]

So I’m getting ready to try this out. I’m going to make an extract beer simply because it’s quick and easy. Here’s my tentative plan:

3 pounds of wheat extract
3 pounds of light Pilsen extract
.5 pounds of dextrose (hopefully brings out more of the stone fruit/fruity notes)

Going to pitch 2 packs of the philly sour and hold the temp at 75 the whole time in order to hopefully bring out some more of those fruity notes as well.

I’m then going to add 10 oz. of this:

https://amoretti.com/collections/craft-purees/products/raspberry-craft-puree?variant=6348476350496
They recommend between 1-3 oz per gallon, so I’m going to split it down the middle. I’m considering two ways of adding the fruit:

1. Adding it directly to the fermenter when fermentation has nearly or completely finished.

2. Adding it directly to the keg to mix in with the fully fermented beer.

Any thoughts on which way would be better and why would be greatly appreciated.

I’m also considering doing some light dry hopping for an extra dimension as well.

Thanks!

Nr 2 will give you most flavor, since philly floccs like crazy I would go for that if you keep the beer cold in the keg and looking for maximum flavor. I added it end of fermentation and let it referment. 3kg on a 5gal batch and still got alot of flavor though, plus some extra abv.
Im going the nr 2 route next time and experiment with some metabisulfate to stop refermentation.

 

[isomerization]

This may not be as temp-related of a curve as you might think. In the initial lab fermentations they also showed that Philly Sour had a biphasic curve...the initial phase is where the yeast focuses more on acid production, whereas the latter phase it is focused more on alcohol production. That being said, all yeasts ferment faster at higher temps.

It’s certainly possible that the lactic acid phase lasted for 3 days. I didn’t take any pH measurements. Also possible that the alcohol fermentation phase just happened to coincide with me bumping the temp control from 68F to 72F.

Just thought it was cool how the ferm rate appeared to more than double with a change of only 4F.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I just mixed this up and here’s where I’m at so far:

3 pounds of wheat extract
3 pounds of Pilsner extract
.5 pounds of dextrose
.25 pounds of maltodextrin
.5 teaspoon of calcium chloride
OG looks like 1.064

Pitched in the two packets of philly sour without rehydrating them.

I currently have it sitting at 72 with a thermowell/inkbird setup in the center of the fermenter. I have a heat wrap on the outside of the fermenter and am going to keep it at 72 during what I assume is the lactic acid production phase for a few days, and then probably bump it up to 74-75....I’m thinking about 72 hours from now.

Once it appears to have finished, I’m going to add the raspberry purée directly to the fermenter along with a small dry hop of about two ounces. I’m not sure which hops but I have a lot to choose from.

After it referments on the purée and dry hops I’m going to crash it and transfer to the serving keg. I’ll provide updates of anything noteworthy.

 

[Kabezullo]

first use of philly sour.
5 gallons final batch. 1 packet 11,5gr
5 kilos pilsen
1 k wheat
mash 90´ - 152 f - no hop
OG 1049
OF 1012
final pH 2,91
pitched at 66, with very shy krausen , then raised to 67 and increase the activity.
in 10 days of fermentation raised and finished at 77 .
show highest krausen at 75 the last 4 days.
secondary and beer gelatin. split the batch . one just like it is, the other with 2 kilos of blackberries picked by the side of the road for 20 days. (this batch FG 1018 and finally overcarb)
natural carbonatation with 5 gr / litro.

after fermentation didn´t find stone fruit, but more green apple, and someone said tobacco,, maybe something like that.
didn´t use dextrose (just look for simple sugars by mash) and get sour enough. more than i expect, just by reading coments here. anyway, clear acidity but as high as reached with omega lacto blend
the batch with blackberries get more complexity and not too fruity flavor, almoust vinous and with a magnificent color. with 10 days from bottled at 68f well foam and gas, of course for the sugars added during secondary-
soon post photo when could try both batches.
i think that philly sour could work well with some kind of dark fruited sour ,, and it´s the next try.

hope you will find it usefull.
sorry for my english

 

[HopsAreGood]

Question for anyone who’s used this yeast? Did you get CO2 bubbles during the initial “souring” phase, or only once it started fermenting sugars. I know this is somewhat of a silly question but I’m just curious.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Today I cracked open a bottle of my sour IPA with Citra and Ella, I find it to be "flat" in the sense that all the flavour is hop driven and it lacks depth, I think in might be worth post pitching an IPA yeast if doing something juicy to add some esters once the souring phase is done

 

[isomerization]

Today I cracked open a bottle of my sour IPA with Citra and Ella, I find it to be "flat" in the sense that all the flavour is hop driven and it lacks depth, I think in might be worth post pitching an IPA yeast if doing something juicy to add some esters once the souring phase is done

I believe low pH inhibits ester formation, so that may not work. Haven’t tasted my batch yet, but I’m hoping the hops shine more than the yeast anyways.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I believe low pH inhibits ester formation, so that may not work. Haven’t tasted my batch yet, but I’m hoping the hops shine more than the yeast anyways.

It does, but that doesn't mean you won't get any, you'll have to increase the ester production in another way, maybe underpitch, I have to think about it

 

[isomerization]

Question for anyone who’s used this yeast? Did you get CO2 bubbles during the initial “souring” phase, or only once it started fermenting sugars. I know this is somewhat of a silly question but I’m just curious.

The only time I had a krausen was the initial 48 hours or so, sugars were being used after about 6 hours. Can’t say more than that though.