Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[Tyler B]

Brewing disaster...whole brewing session went flawlessly yesterday right up until moving the chilled wort from the kettle to the Big Mouth Bubbler. Ants were a problem due to some spilled mash so I wet the whole area down (backyard patio). After the transfer was complete I noticed that only ~2 gallons were in the fermenter...and then I noticed that the damned spigot was full open and draining wort onto the wet patio (if it had not been wet, I would have noticed much sooner). Maybe I could have fermented the less than half-batch and called it a day, but I'd rather do it right than not, so I will redo this effort Friday with the same ingredients. Been brewing for many years and never made this mistake before. Argh!

I know it's just a matter of time before I have something similar to me... Sorry, man!

 

[stealthfixr]

Although the mistake was all mine, I just bought a Spike CF5 with casters--arrives this Friday. Ought to be a lot easier to see leaks like this with the SS conical and a whole lot less fragile than plastic. Glycol chiller should be here end of August from MoreBeer, although I do not need one for this yeast.

Kenmoron, good point on the smaller fermenters. I've got a Kombucha fermenter than I am not using and did not even think about at the time.

 

[Tyler B]

OK, I just watched the 1hr 20min webinar and there is a lot of good stuff in there. Something that jumped out at me were the factors that affect the amount of souring that takes place. A lot of this has been said, but just to put it in one place (so I don't have to watch the movie again before I brew).

1. Over pitching and underpitching results in a less sour beer. As others have said, the lab that researched this recommends 1-1.5g/L of beer (oddly with no mention of OG). They recommended not cropping or repitching yeast because it is hard to control the pitch rate. However, if you do, they recommend 1 million cells/mL/°Plato. I would go with the recommendation of the guy who has a PhD and studied this for years over the Lallemand website pitch rate calculator.

2. Fermenting at the high end (77°F) of the recommended temp range (68-77F) also results in more souring.

3. Adding glucose to the wort (as opposed to using all malt wort) results in more souring. All malt worts also tend to produce more red apple flavors whereas those with glucose additions produce more stonefruit/peach flavors.

4. As others have said, don't co-pitch yeast as most yeasts out compete Philly Sour and it doesn't have a chance to sour the beer. Instead pitch in sequence if you want to co-pitch. For example, pitch Philly Sour, then when it has reached terminal pH (after 3 days or so), pitch the second yeast (i.e. Kveik, Belle Saison) to help finish the job.

5. While the yeast is hop tolerant, excessive dry hopping (like in a NEIPA) can raise the pH which might affect the perceived sourness. Still sounds tasty to me.

Also of interest, this is a wild yeast and one person on the webinar said to treat it like brett but the other said contamination shouldn't be a concern. In fact, normal ale yeast might contaminate this one.

 

[stealthfixr]

One interesting tidbit was that this yeast was found locally in Philadelphia...in a graveyard! Should we propose a new name? Last Stop Sour? Picture a Tim Burton picture on the front.

I plan to just put in the single sachet without rehydration or any other starter action. I heard a couple times in the webinar that the single packet was sized just right for most 5 gallon OG batches. My IBUs will be about 9.5 going into the fermenter, and no dry hoping planned. Being a Gose, however, dry hopping at the preferred pH might be a way in future batches to control souring from getting too out of hand.

 

[Tyler B]

I plan to just put in the single sachet without rehydration or any other starter action. I heard a couple times in the webinar that the single packet was sized just right for most 5 gallon OG batches. My IBUs will be about 9.5 going into the fermenter, and no dry hoping planned. Being a Gose, however, dry hopping at the preferred pH might be a way in future batches to control souring from getting too out of hand.

I think maybe you misunderstood them. They say multiple times that you should pitch 1-1.5g/L. So for a normal 5 gallon (19L) batch, that would be 19-28.5g. 1 sachet (11g) would be underpitching, at least in terms of maximizing souring. 2 packs (22g)would fall right in line with their recommendation. During the Q&A session at the end, they very specifically said "two sachets". They also said you can either rehydrate or direct pitch, whatever you want to do.

 

[stealthfixr]

I think maybe you misunderstood them. They say multiple times that you should pitch 1-1.5g/L. So for a normal 5 gallon (19L) batch, that would be 19-28.5g. 1 sachet (11g) would be underpitching, at least in terms of maximizing souring. 2 packs (22g)would fall right in line with their recommendation. During the Q&A session at the end, they very specifically said "two sachets". They also said you can either rehydrate or direct pitch, whatever you want to do.

You're right, good catch. Pitching rate calculator on the Lallemand website also says 2 packets. Good thing I have two of them on hand.

 

[Beer666]

You're right, good catch. Pitching rate calculator on the Lallemand website also says 2 packets. Good thing I have two of them on hand.

That's weird, when i used their calc a few weeks ago it said 4g for 10l of 1040 wort. David Heath states in his video on advice from Lallemand he only used 1 pack.

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

Brewing disaster...whole brewing session went flawlessly yesterday right up until moving the chilled wort from the kettle to the Big Mouth Bubbler. Ants were a problem due to some spilled mash so I wet the whole area down (backyard patio). After the transfer was complete I noticed that only ~2 gallons were in the fermenter...and then I noticed that the damned spigot was full open and draining wort onto the wet patio (if it had not been wet, I would have noticed much sooner). Maybe I could have fermented the less than half-batch and called it a day. But, I'd rather do it right than not, so I will redo this effort next weekend with the same ingredients. Been brewing for many years and never made this mistake before. Argh!

Ouch!

I had the same thing happen, but while sanitizing. I painted my spigot handles so I could easily see Open or Closed. My next one will be painted green for closed and red for open!

 

[Tyler B]

That's weird, when i used their calc a few weeks ago it said 4g for 10l of 1040 wort. David Heath states in his video on advice from Lallemand he only used 1 pack.

I just checked the pitch calc and it doesn't seem to match Dr. Farber's recommendation from the webinar.

Like I said in a previous post. Trust the guy who did the research, not the online calculator. It's not common that you have access to that kind of primary source.

 

[Kenmoron]

Has anyone finished a ferment and actually had a beer yet via bottle conditioning? I'm about to bottle mine soon and I'm wondering if they will bottle condition ok. Lallemand recommends adding a conditioning yeast if bottling...but I get the feeling that this may be just to buy more yeast. One guy mentioned on Milk The Funk that Philly Sour may not do well under pressure which slightly concerns me. I'd like to hear of a successful bottle conditioning experience. If not, I may be adding some conditioning yeast except for a couple bottles just to see how it does by itself.

 

[Kenmoron]

Batch: 3 gal
Grain bill: 75% Maris Otter, 25% Red Wheat Malt
Mash: overnight mash at 150F (about 10 hrs, dropped to about 144F)
Boil: x5 mins
Hops: 1 oz Citra at flameout
SG: 1.051
chilled to 75F

I split the 3 gal batch into 1 gal and 2 gal batches and plan on fruiting the 2 gal (tons of backyard raspberries) while leaving the 1 gal neutral. I direct pitched 1 packet (so right at about 1 g/L pitch rate) split accordingly between the fermenters and let it sit at 75F.

Well, I just bottled my batch last night. Unfortunately, it didn't attenuate as much as I wanted it to, only 71% (1.051 to 1.015). This is especially interesting as I typically get a high attenuation when doing an overnight mash. Fermentation temperature held pretty steady between 74-75F. I'm pretty sure it was finished as it was at 1.015 when I checked it on Day 5...and when checked on Day 8 it was still at 1.015 so I just bottled it then. The unfruited batch finished at pH 3.34 while the batch with raspberries finished at 3.31. Both samples taste like a tart fruit juice. The unfruited sample has lots of juicy peach, nectarine, and some background fleshy apple. The batch with raspberries tastes like raspberry lemonade. I'm actually super stoked on the flavor profile! I just wish it would have gotten a little drier. Although, I can see these 'sours' being crowd favorites as they are very easy drinking with that added sweetness. I am looking forward to playing around with Philly Sour and brett in the future. If doing another batch of Philly Sour by itself, I may be inclined to add some extra simple sugars (~10% or so).

In terms of bottling, I always like bottling straight from the fermenter using 'Domino Dots' sugar cubes in order to minimize oxygen. So I did the same here, but before capping, added just a bit (maybe 5-10 granules) of EC-1118 yeast to condition. I left two bottles without any conditioning yeast just to see if Philly Sour can condition on its own. I will try to give these two bottles plenty of time before checking. Regarding the yeast cake, I added a fresh bottle of water and swirled (in an attempt to bring the pH up a bit) before transferring some of the slurry to a mason jar. I will try to repitch this on something soon to see how it does.

 

[Tyler B]

Well, I just bottled my batch last night. Unfortunately, it didn't attenuate as much as I wanted it to, only 71% (1.051 to 1.015). This is especially interesting as I typically get a high attenuation when doing an overnight mash. Fermentation temperature held pretty steady between 74-75F. I'm pretty sure it was finished as it was at 1.015 when I checked it on Day 5...and when checked on Day 8 it was still at 1.015 so I just bottled it then. The unfruited batch finished at pH 3.34 while the batch with raspberries finished at 3.31. Both samples taste like a tart fruit juice. The unfruited sample has lots of juicy peach, nectarine, and some background fleshy apple. The batch with raspberries tastes like raspberry lemonade. I'm actually super stoked on the flavor profile! I just wish it would have gotten a little drier. Although, I can see these 'sours' being crowd favorites as they are very easy drinking with that added sweetness. I am looking forward to playing around with Philly Sour and brett in the future. If doing another batch of Philly Sour by itself, I may be inclined to add some extra simple sugars (~10% or so).

In terms of bottling, I always like bottling straight from the fermenter using 'Domino Dots' sugar cubes in order to minimize oxygen. So I did the same here, but before capping, added just a bit (maybe 5-10 granules) of EC-1118 yeast to condition. I left two bottles without any conditioning yeast just to see if Philly Sour can condition on its own. I will try to give these two bottles plenty of time before checking. Regarding the yeast cake, I added a fresh bottle of water and swirled (in an attempt to bring the pH up a bit) before transferring some of the slurry to a mason jar. I will try to repitch this on something soon to see how it does.

Good stuff! I'm anxious to hear how all of this turns out. It's looking like my shipment will be delayed due to Covid.

 

[stealthfixr]

Brewed the Gose above yesterday, pretty flawless session (unlike last time). No real change in gravity yet, but the fermenter looked like this about 12.5 hours after pitching two packets of Philly Sour (no rehydration, just sprinkled on the wort surface). And, Brewfather Tilt tracking attached as well.

Regarding the Tilt and other threads about inaccuracies, this OG exactly agrees with my hydrometer and refractometer. I did also just calibrate it in distilled water, but it wasn’t off by much at all.

 

[Kenmoron]

No real change in gravity yet, but the fermenter looked like this about 12.5 hours after pitching two packets of Philly Sour (no rehydration, just sprinkled on the wort surface).

Pretty much the same experience I had with 1 packet directly into 3 gal. Big, soapy krausen at 10 hrs without much gravity change. The bulk of the remaining fermentation had no real krausen, just a filmy, bubbly surface. Then on day 5, the yeast just flocced like a rock.


One more thing...while I was cleaning the fermenter, I noticed the ring left from the krausen was incredibly oily. PBW took care of it just fine though. I haven't had this experience with other yeasts even using the same grain bill. I am guessing this yeast creates some sort of biofilm.

 

[Michael Dicken]

My test batch with Philly Sour seems to be stuck at 1.020. Anyone else having this problem? I brewed up a sour NEIPA 17 days ago. My OG was 1.056. I fermented at 72 degrees for 10 days and was at 1.021. I moved the fermenter to warmer 75 degree space for another week and it only dropped to 1.020. Not sure where to go from here. The flavor profile is spectacular, pineapple, grapefruit, nice balanced acidity. Unfortunately lots of residual sweetness since the attenuation is so low.

 

[Kenmoron]

My test batch with Philly Sour seems to be stuck at 1.020. Anyone else having this problem? I brewed up a sour NEIPA 17 days ago. My OG was 1.056. I fermented at 72 degrees for 10 days and was at 1.021. I moved the fermenter to warmer 75 degree space for another week and it only dropped to 1.020. Not sure where to go from here. The flavor profile is spectacular, pineapple, grapefruit, nice balanced acidity. Unfortunately lots of residual sweetness since the attenuation is so low.

Depending on your grain bill and mash temp/time you may be done already. Unfortunately, it seems like there is quite a wide range of attenuation people are getting. If it tastes good, go ahead and package. If you want to try and dry it out you can try to add enzyme to the fermenter (amyloglucosidase to get it really dry or just amylase to drop it a little bit more). The other option is to just pitch another, somewhat neutral yeast in there to try and finish it up (I'd probably try to do a small starter just to get it active before pitching it into some fairly acidic beer).

 

[Michael Dicken]

Depending on your grain bill and mash temp/time you may be done already. Unfortunately, it seems like there is quite a wide range of attenuation people are getting. If it tastes good, go ahead and package. If you want to try and dry it out you can try to add enzyme to the fermenter (amyloglucosidase to get it really dry or just amylase to drop it a little bit more). The other option is to just pitch another, somewhat neutral yeast in there to try and finish it up (I'd probably try to do a small starter just to get it active before pitching it into some fairly acidic beer).

I was chatting with a very helpful rep at Lallemand today and she had similar recommendations. She recommended adding dextrose or another yeast to finish it off. Apparently this isn't an uncommon scenario. After ruling out high mash temp or other nonfermentable scenarios she said "The only other thing that I can think of is that this yeast is super flocculent and I know we have seen longer fermentation times in flat bottom fermenters. Basically the yeast flocs out prematurely before complete fermentation is finished."

I'm going to mix up a chico starter tonight and finish this off.

 

[marc1]

My test batch with Philly Sour seems to be stuck at 1.020. Anyone else having this problem? I brewed up a sour NEIPA 17 days ago. My OG was 1.056. I fermented at 72 degrees for 10 days and was at 1.021. I moved the fermenter to warmer 75 degree space for another week and it only dropped to 1.020. Not sure where to go from here. The flavor profile is spectacular, pineapple, grapefruit, nice balanced acidity. Unfortunately lots of residual sweetness since the attenuation is so low.

What was your pitch rate?

 

[stealthfixr]

I've got a few US-05s in the fridge--I'll maybe add those with the Raspberry puree in a few days. Might increase the temperature from 75F to 76F as well.

After 3 days from pitching, the gravity went from 1.055 to 1.035, so it does seem slower than my normal sachs fermentation speed. If I remember in the webinar that the souring happens first, then the ethanol production. So, I am curious what the pH is now--might draw a sample to check.

 

[Michael Dicken]

What was your pitch rate?

1 packet

 

[marc1]

1 packet

For 5 gallons?
We're getting good feedback in this thread. It will be good to find what conditions make low attenuation more likely.

 

[Michael Dicken]

For 5 gallons?
We're getting good feedback in this thread. It will be good to find what conditions make low attenuation more likely.

Yes. 1 packet for 5 gallon batch

 

[Tyler B]

I got my Philly Sour in the mail much quicker than I expected. As soon as I keg a brown ale that is occupying my fermenter, I'm going to give this a try. Probably in another week or two.

 

[stealthfixr]

Probably not going to late pitch US-05, looks like ethanol production recently picked up. Not yet done, but closer than yesterday for sure. Gravity down to 1.022 after 3.5 days and still going down.

 

[Tyler B]

Any thoughts on pre-acidifying the wort with this yeast? I had originally planned on doing this in my gose recipe, but I'm tossed up on whether or not I should try it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Any thoughts on pre-acidifying the wort with this yeast? I had originally planned on doing this in my gose recipe, but I'm tossed up on whether or not I should try it.

Absolutely no reason to do that.

 

[Tyler B]

Absolutely no reason to do that.

My initial thoughts exactly, but then I wondered if it might result in a lower final pH? Or if it might have an impact on attenuation or anything else? From a cost perspective, a bit of acid malt and one pack of yeast might be cheaper than two packs of yeast and no acid malt (at least where I live).

I'm really just looking to generate discussion on the topic and have emailed Lallemand to see if they have any experience with this. I'll be sure to let you know if/when they respond.

 

[Kenmoron]

My initial thoughts exactly, but then I wondered if it might result in a lower final pH? Or if it might have an impact on attenuation or anything else? From a cost perspective, a bit of acid malt and one pack of yeast might be cheaper than two packs of yeast and no acid malt (at least where I live).

Although there are still a lot of unknowns about Lachancea spp., in general, yeasts typically perform more poorly at lower pHs. In a typical kettle sour you bring the pH down to 4.5 in order to try and stave off unwanted microbes (you are leaving a lot of fermentable sugar at warm temps) and to try and help with foam/head stability (less protein metabolism by the bacteria). With Philly Sour, it starts to ferment pretty quickly, and I have no noticed no issues with head retention.

If I were to guess, I would think that dropping the pH prior pitching Philly sour would result in less fruity esters (with traditional sacc these are primarily made at the beginning of fermentation, and actually get less expressive in lower pHs), and possibly result in a lower attenuation (due to stress on the yeast?). That being said, Lachancea seems to drop the pH first, and then work more on alcoholic fermentation, so maybe there is something to your idea. So if you decide to try it out, please report back with your results!

 

[stealthfixr]

Pitched 3lb of Raspberry puree into the fermenter yesterday, and wow does Philly Sour like fruit! The activity immediately picked up, as well as a weird gravity drop & raise. A slight taste test confirmed that souring is really there, and really good, BTW. Gravity down to 1.017, so a little more yet to go. Temp upped to 76F.

 

[Pr0pheT]

I have made a Berliner Weisse with this yeast recently.
15L (4gal) batch, 1.034SG, 1.006FG
60% dingermans pils
30% weyermann malted wheat
10% malted oats
5 IBU mandarina bavaria @60min
5g irish moss @2 min

I rehydrated 1 pack of Philly sour, so that is about 0.73g/L pitch rate (the lallemand calculator said I needed only 7.5 grams for this batch which would be 0,5g/L pitch rate)
Pitched at 21°C (70°F) and fermented at 24-25C (75-77F)

PH got down to 3.35 by day 4 and it was done fermenting by day 10 at 1.006 SG which gives me 82% attenuation. I left it in the fermenter for a couple extra days just to be sure. Yesterday I´ve put half of it into the fridge to cold crash. It was already pretty clear for 30% wheat and 10% oats. I was thinking about adding gelatine but the yeast floculates like a champ so I dont think it will be necessary, I will probably just leave it in the fridge for another day and then bottle and re-yeast with ec-1118.

To the other half which is still on the yeast cake I added 455g (1lb) of frozen raspberries.

The sample I tasted yesterday had a great aroma of apricots/peaches (no apple) and it didnt smell sour but rather sweet which was surprising to me, taste was clean, with nice sournes although I would have liked if the ph was closer to 3.5

I will let you guys know how it went in a couple of weeks.

Also any idea if it would be safe to add some lactose to the one with raspberries ? The Philly sour shouldnt be able to ferment lactose right ?