Ambient/Spontaneous Fermentation

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I tasted it today, its definitely beer. :ban: Not very well attenuated beer, still sweet, and definitely sour. If I was planning on doing anything with it soon I'd take a gravity reading, but its going to need a few months at least so I'll wait. It may get the dowel treatment, but I'm concerned if there's no Brett it may not produce a pellicle to protect from oxidation/acetobacter. But, during these cold months its supposed to be less of a concern. Also, I think it would be amazingly cool if it did produce a pellicle without adding Brett or any commerical yeast/bacteria.
 
If I put brew out in my orchard like that the only thing I would have is a worse opossum and skunk problem then I already have. I can hear the critters talking to each other now, "Hey you that third house on the left were we eat all the dog food at? Guess what. He is serving beer now!" :rockin:
 
GaryA said:
If I put brew out in my orchard like that the only thing I would have is a worse opossum and skunk problem then I already have. I can hear the critters talking to each other now, "Hey you that third house on the left were we eat all the dog food at? Guess what. He is serving beer now!" :rockin:
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Awesome.

Anyone know how common native brett is in NA? I wouldn't mind wild-fermenting sometime.
 
Any updates on this?

Really curious to see how this turns out,
Matt
 
ma2brew said:
Any updates on this?
Really curious to see how this turns out,
Matt
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It will be at least a few more months, these sour beers need quite a while to finish. As soon as its done, I'll let everybody know.
 
Truly inspiring. I wonder if the same concept would work in the small grape arbor in my backyard. I made 6gal of wine with the grapes from it last fall without pitching any yeast...
 
5 Is Not Enough said:
Truly inspiring. I wonder if the same concept would work in the small grape arbor in my backyard. I made 6gal of wine with the grapes from it last fall without pitching any yeast...
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im hoping to do this as well, but with an extract kit.
 
I tasted this the other day and it tasted very good and it had dried out/no sweetness. So I just took a gravity reading today to see where it is and I couldn't believe my eyes: 1.002!:eek: I checked the hydrometer( I'm at work and its not mine) and its reading 1.000 with tap water at ~60F so its not off at all. It certainly not to dry for the style, but I'm just suprised it dropped that low so quickly. It has a bit of a grain taste to it that I hope will go away, but other than that it tastes like a slightly less complex/funk, slightly less sour beer than a gueze(I've never had straight unblended plain lambic).
 
I was just re-reading the beginning of this thread and need to amend something. The winning sour beer I was talking about was not made the way I did, I learned this after talking to the brewer. He has been making sour beers in his barrels for many years, but they were initially innoculated with brett/lacto/pedio/etc. from wyeast/whitelabs. Since then I'm sure(and he is) other local wild yeast have made their home in his barrels, but his 'spontaneous' fermentation is just adding the wort/beer to the barrels and then letting them go without adding any additional yeast/bacteria. The term 'spontaneous' can be used in this manner; real Lambic brewers do this, Russian River calls one of their beer spontaneously fermented in La Folie barrels(they use the La Folie bugs in the used barrels). So it can mean both things. Just FYI.
 
Its in the bottle!
Haven't tried one yet to see if its carbonated yet. Even though its so young, comparitively, at 1.002 it can't go that much lower. I calculated the carbonation at a lower level, just in case. If the carb level is low its OK, I've had lambic/gueze that had a low level of carbonation and was very good. If the gravity in the bottle drops below 1.000, then the carb will be high, which will be OK as well.
I want to keep these around for a long time, hopefully they will improve/change over time, so I won't be drinking them very regularly.
 
Somehow, I just came across this thread now. Landhoney, you rock. :rockin:

Ryanh1801 said:
sweet.... I bet you could get an article in BYO with this little experiment.
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I'm thinking the same thing. You should try and submit a write-up on this. This goes beyond the "barrel fermentation." This is truly a spontaneous ferment. Very cool.
 
Is fall and spring the optimum time to do this?

I think in the chat you threw me a link, but the chat is for drinking and stuff gets lost.
 
olllllo said:
Is fall and spring the optimum time to do this?
I think in the chat you threw me a link, but the chat is for drinking and stuff gets lost.
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Ask and you shall receive:
http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1187920498&pg=2&tpg=1&add=1

The idea is the timing of inoculation of ambient ferment is best after the first month of no CDD( http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/colddegreeday.asp ) or the first month where avg. temp's don't exceed 65F, but also aren't much below 40F. You want the cold so acetobacter is more dormant, but not cold enough that everything(sort of) is dormant. This is my understanding anyway, it helps explain why Lambics weren't traditionally brewed in the summer, at least that is my understanding.
 
I'm losing my window of opportunity!

PHXtemp.JPG
 
Go for it olllllo! I think I will be trying a spring and fall spontaneous ferment. I would guess the yeasts and other bugs would be different at those times. I am thinking my timing will be mid April.

BTW- this would probably be the coolest brew swap ever if a few of us can get this to work.
 
Go for it, man. Get the Cactus league involved in the spontaeous fermentation!

I don't know that anyone really wants anything spontaneously fermented around here, though. We have lots of weird things floating around in the air.


TL
 
I'm in the History, Science, and Culture of Beer class here at King's College in Halifax (google the course, we're getting some news coverage and a horribly misrepresentative blog), and we have an option of doing a relevant project (eg homebrew an historical beer, recreate an experiment, etc). I'm planning to try a spontaneous fermentation.

landhoney, where did you do the research for your method? It looks (to one that has so far done none) pretty authentically lambic.

Also; reading the link from the Burgundian Bubble; how practical is it to inoculate a starter at somebody's orchard/vineyard/etc and commute it back into the city where I live to pitch it into the full wort? It looks like I'll have to wait until April at the earliest to get any good ambient yeast in my climate. Even that is an average of 46 - 30. Global warming, don't fail me now.

EDIT: I've read through the thread landhoney linked on the BBB (I'm awaiting registration there.) It looks like ideally I'll be inoculating my batch in the fall, in an orchard. Hopefully, for the sake of my project and paper, I can get some sort of spontaneous fermentation started in the spring. Does anybody have information on spring inoculations? I understand that cold temperatures rule out aceto to a large degree, but are there strong native saccharomyces populations before fruit season? What about lacto/pedio? I'm sure I'll find something to eat my wort. I just don't know what.
 
This has got to be one of the most interesting posts on the fundamentals of fermentation that I have ever encountered.

It brings the statement "Relax. Don't worry. Have a home-brew." full circle.

Well done!!!! A+++++ work.

Hedghog
 
Kai said:
landhoney, where did you do the research for your method? It looks (to one that has so far done none) pretty authentically lambic.

Also; reading the link from the Burgundian Bubble; how practical is it to inoculate a starter at somebody's orchard/vineyard/etc and commute it back into the city where I live to pitch it into the full wort? It looks like I'll have to wait until April at the earliest to get any good ambient yeast in my climate. Even that is an average of 46 - 30. Global warming, don't fail me now.

EDIT: I've read through the thread landhoney linked on the BBB (I'm awaiting registration there.) It looks like ideally I'll be inoculating my batch in the fall, in an orchard. Hopefully, for the sake of my project and paper, I can get some sort of spontaneous fermentation started in the spring. Does anybody have information on spring inoculations? I understand that cold temperatures rule out aceto to a large degree, but are there strong native saccharomyces populations before fruit season? What about lacto/pedio? I'm sure I'll find something to eat my wort. I just don't know what.
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Thanks for the kind words everybody.
I'm pretty sure the babblebelt was my sole source of information and inspiration for this one. I know I've done google/etc. searches but I don't think I found much.
I think making an 'ambient starter' would be a fine idea. I have no idea which 'bugs' I got, or what is naturally available in the air/wind/orchard. Really I just found the 'ideal' time for me to do this and rolled the dice. I imagine the wild yeast count is higher when the fruit is on, or freshly off, but I'm not sure. If I recall correctly, apples had been picked at the time - but there was still a significant amount of fruit left on the trees and the ground. The research orchard I worked at was somewhat wasteful, all the fruit was never fully harvested off the trees.
 
landhoney said:
Recipe is for 5 gal:

Adjunct Mash:
3# unmalted wheat
2# 6-Row
1# Rolled Oats

Malt Mash:
4# Pils
1# Munich

~2oz Aged Hops @ 60min

Adjunct mash is stewed at 122F for 15min, then raised to 150F and another 15min, then brought to boil for 15min. At the same time the Malt Mash should be at 122F, then add the boiling adjunct mash to the malt mash to bring the malt mash to 155F. After 45 minutes do a mash out.
Boil for ~90 minutes
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Do you use direct fire? step? wot?
 
Any reason this same thing cant or shouldnt be done with say... wine in a vineyard? Or even Apfelwein in an orchard?
 
Not at all. I've had wine that was fermented with wild yeast, and it was very good. In fact, you do not have to leave it open to ferment, as the yeasties are right there on the grape skins and there is no mash to kill them off. I imagine hard cider started off the same way. If you have wild yeast that makes tasty booze, then it should work just fine. I wouldn't trust the wild yeasts around where I am, though, especially since there also is too much mold in the air.

I don't know about apfelwein, though. You might not have the right yeasties floating around.


TL
 
mr_stimey said:
Any reason this same thing cant or shouldnt be done with say... wine in a vineyard? Or even Apfelwein in an orchard?
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I agree with TexLaw, most(if not all) of the reports I've heard about fermentation of fruit juices using only(mostly I guess) the yeast on the skins of the fruit has resulted in a good, clean, non-sour taste. However mine, which no doubt got yeast from the air and from yeast blown off the fruit, is not that clean tasting and definitely sour. Makes for good beer(IMHO), but the slightly funky and sour taste would not be right for grape wine, and probably not cider/apfelwine.
 
Excellent thread. I've been following it for a while now and I can't wait to here the results.

olllllo, you'll have to post here if you're able to get a spontaneous fermentation going here in Arizona, I'd love to know if you have any success.
 
It's going to have to wait til December here in PHX or perhaps in October If I can get it done in Christopher Creek.

I have to get another Chest freezer as well.
 
dang, I was just directed to this thread in exploration of this topic by HighPlainsDrifter. This is so sweet, I can wait to hear the results. I was hoping to try something like this. Keep us updated :mug:
 

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