Wild ferment question (newbie)

[Lady_Grey]

Hi! I'm just now putting my toe in the brewing world so all this is new and exciting but I don't quite know all the little details. I got some homegrown apples, organic and unsprayed, from my father in law's orchard, but it's not quite enough for a gallon of cider, so I was wondering:
1) I froze the apples so they wouldn't go bad while I tried to figure things out; will that kill the yeast or can I still do a wild ferment?
2) Provided it's fine and I can still use them, would it work to juice up some storebought apples to make up the volume of juice, mix it with juice from the homegrown apples, and assume the homegrown yeasts will ferment the whole batch?
3) Any tips for getting maximum juice if you don't have a juicer or fruit press? I do possess one of those big cider presses but it's not worth it to drag the whole contraption out and spend hours cleaning it for only a gallon or two of cider, so I figured I'd run the apples through the grater attachment on my Kitchenaid and then squeeze the pulp in my cheese press. But if anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.

 

[Miraculix]

Freezing won't kill everything but certainly a lot of it. It's better to not freeze fruit if you want to rely on the wild yeast.

 

[Lady_Grey]

Thanks! Good to know. Um. Well, since I've already done it, and I don't particularly want to buy yeast, could I either put the juice in a jar with a cheesecloth and let it "catch" yeast from the air, or add raisins, or both? I'm doing both with an elderberry wine from elderberries I had in the freezer and while it's only been a couple days, it already smells yeasty. But that's elderberries and not cider so I want to know if it'd work the same way.

(by the way I love your avatar; I grew up with Asterix and all my kids are now obsessed!)

 

[Lady_Grey]

WAIT I just remembered I have wild crabapples on my property! And they should be ready in a week or two. I usually make those into jelly because they are sour but I bet if I squash a few into the apple juice they'd inoculate it fine.

 

[Miraculix]

WAIT I just remembered I have wild crabapples on my property! And they should be ready in a week or two. I usually make those into jelly because they are sour but I bet if I squash a few into the apple juice they'd inoculate it fine.

That should work! Also crabapples give a nice and well deserved tannin boost. Most eating apple varieties are lacking sufficient tannins so the resulting cider might be a bit bland. Crabapples are a common fix for that!

I wouldn't do the airborne yeast tryouts, much too risky. You might catch something good and you might catch something that does not taste nice. Using ripe fruit instead has a much bigger chance of success.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks! Good to know. Um. Well, since I've already done it, and I don't particularly want to buy yeast, could I either put the juice in a jar with a cheesecloth and let it "catch" yeast from the air, or add raisins, or both? I'm doing both with an elderberry wine from elderberries I had in the freezer and while it's only been a couple days, it already smells yeasty. But that's elderberries and not cider so I want to know if it'd work the same way.

(by the way I love your avatar; I grew up with Asterix and all my kids are now obsessed!)

If it smells right and is bubbling, all good! But I thought elderberries must be boiled before being consumed?

 

[Lady_Grey]

If it smells right and is bubbling, all good! But I thought elderberries must be boiled before being consumed?

I don't think so, none of the videos or articles I've read say anything about that. From what I understand it's that you don't want to consume the seeds, which are toxic, you just want to extract the juice, which for a jelly or syrup would indeed involve boiling but wouldn't in a wild fermented wine.

It's not bubbling yet, I'm just setting it out to steep. Tomorrow I will strain it and add sugar and let it sit for a few more days before racking it into the carboy. It worked for the people on YouTube so we'll see what happens here!

Good to know on the airborne yeasts, I'll just see what I can find in the apple department around here and definitely use the crabapples.

 

[Miraculix]

My German sources just say that the berries are poisonous when unheated. They don't mention the seeds as the source of the poison.

In general, YouTube is not a good source for recipes and knowledge. Everybody can upload their videos there and pretend to know and pretend to be successful.

 

[Lady_Grey]

My German sources just say that the berries are poisonous when unheated. They don't mention the seeds as the source of the poison.

In general, YouTube is not a good source for recipes and knowledge. Everybody can upload their videos there and pretend to know and pretend to be successful.

I guess I didn't think about that. Homesteading Family has a reputation for being a good source but that doesn't mean they're always right. I'll look into it.

I did some extensive googling after you said that and now I'm a bit confused; many sources say that the raw berries are poisonous but that seems to be because you can't just snarf a handful of berries without eating the seeds, which do contain compounds that metabolize into hydrogen cyanide - unless cooked, which, as you point out, breaks it down and makes them harmless. There seems to be some confusion about whether the *flesh* is toxic - I'm inclined to think not, but I will do some more research before consuming anything.

I am, however, using American elder, not European (I live in the US and it just grows wild here), which is less toxic.

If I were to heat it, just to be on the safe side, I wonder how I could still make it a wild ferment. How did our great great grandparents do it?

 

[Miraculix]

I guess I didn't think about that. Homesteading Family has a reputation for being a good source but that doesn't mean they're always right. I'll look into it.

I did some extensive googling after you said that and now I'm a bit confused; many sources say that the raw berries are poisonous but that seems to be because you can't just snarf a handful of berries without eating the seeds, which do contain compounds that metabolize into hydrogen cyanide - unless cooked, which, as you point out, breaks it down and makes them harmless. There seems to be some confusion about whether the *flesh* is toxic - I'm inclined to think not, but I will do some more research before consuming anything.

I am, however, using American elder, not European (I live in the US and it just grows wild here), which is less toxic.

If I were to heat it, just to be on the safe side, I wonder how I could still make it a wild ferment. How did our great great grandparents do it?

They probably did not use elderberries for that. Apples and other fruits are way more easy to use.

It's said that it is sambunigrin that is causing the problems, wether or not it is in the flesh of the fruit is not mentioned in my sources. They also do not talk about possible differences between American and European species, which can actually be there.

You can always make a wild starter with a bit of wildly fermenting apple juice or honey and then when it is really active, pitch it into the boiled elderberry juice plus the sugar or honey. That is actually a common way to make wild mead. To make multiple starters this way, let them ferment till they are or almost are dry and then taste test them. Then just use the best to inocculate the main batch and toss the rest. They all differ and not each of them will have the desired flavour. I've made some wild mead this way, turned out really good but needed extended aging time. 2 years +.

 

[Lady_Grey]

Ohhh... that makes sense. I mean, we all know they made elderberry wine but it stands to reason they would have used another yeast source.

Well. Maybe I'll go ahead and boil the juice after straining tomorrow, just to be safe. Would it work to throw a few crabapples into the juice to inoculate it? Or would you recommend the starter? (And how do you make a starter? Like I said, I'm new at this)

I sure do appreciate all your advice.

 

[Miraculix]

Ohhh... that makes sense. I mean, we all know they made elderberry wine but it stands to reason they would have used another yeast source.

Well. Maybe I'll go ahead and boil the juice after straining tomorrow, just to be safe. Would it work to throw a few crabapples into the juice to inoculate it? Or would you recommend the starter? (And how do you make a starter? Like I said, I'm new at this)

I sure do appreciate all your advice.

You actually would only need the skin and yes this should work, depending on the amount of yeast on the surface. Do not wash them unless sandy or bird droppings are on them.

I have made wild mead innoculated with quince skin. That worked pretty well. Just make sure that it stays relatively cool. once visible fermentation started. Otherwise, headache after drinking (promoted fusel alcohol production). Also, fermentation is an exothermic reaction, meaning that during peak fermentation time the must can be 3-7 degrees warmer than the room. You can fight this by placing the fermenter in a water tub to increase the thermal mass. about 18 C° would be best 20 C° is still fine, above 22 C° and we are getting into a territory where some yeasts might start doing strange things. But maybe it will be fine, at the end wild fermentations are unpredictable.

You will also add some sugar or honey to the juice, right?

 

[Lady_Grey]

You bet! Probably sugar, as I haven't extracted my honey supers yet - been a slow year. Next year they should be ready earlier and I want to try a pyment.

Do I put the peels in the carboy with the airlock or in the primary fermentation vessel?

 

[Miraculix]

You bet! Probably sugar, as I haven't extracted my honey supers yet - been a slow year. Next year they should be ready earlier and I want to try a pyment.

Do I put the peels in the carboy with the airlock or in the primary fermentation vessel?

I would start in the carboy with the air lock from the start. There could be a certain benefit though to start in a wider vessel, to allow some oxygen in for the first few days. This helps yeast multiplication and you want higher cell count asap. However, it is not only the yeast that thrives under these conditions, so is also everything else including acedobacter which turn the produced alcohol into vinegar. Without oxygen, no acedobacter.

My personal take on this is to airlock from day one and throw everything into the main fermenter. No racking. If you want to rack, wait till fermentation finishes. But then, racking would be pointless, you could bottle instead, if it cleared sufficently. It will take the same time to clear, with or without the racking and aging in the bottle is perfectly fine. There are very few uses where I would say a primary and a secondary fermentation vessel is justified or makes sense.

edit: The English term seems to be: acetic acid bacteria, not acedobacter.