Am I missing something with my simplistic hopping ways?

[Hwk-I-St8]

I tend to view hopping very simply: I typically FWH for whatever bittering I want, then possibly whirlpool additions at 170 and dry hop. I've been extremely happy with the results of my recipes.

I just don't see the point in 30 min, 15 min, 5 min type additions. Part does what the full boil addition does, part does what the whirlpool addition does...why not just get those aspects from those steps respectively?

What am I missing here? I feel like there must be more to it since so many recipes call for a multitude of intermediate boiling and flameout additions.

 

[Homercidal]

Different boil lengths give different amount of flavors, and different flavors too.

I have started to just do basically what you are doing, some bittering hops, and some very late hops. Just depends on the effect you want. Adding in some 20-30 minute additions can give a more complex flavor I guess. Maybe it's useful for getting flavor, but a certain amount of bitterness.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Yes, the boil additions would add to IBUs depending on the hop variety. I do not find it difficult to set a timer for these additions, but haven't yet brewed a batch with the mostly flameout addition. Summer's coming high time I make an IPA of some sort, and check out the results.

 

[Lefou]

If it works for you, roll with it.
A complicated hop schedule seems a bit ridiculous and can get expensive if you allow it. My cheap sniffer and taster aren't sophisticated so I keep hopping down to two or less.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I guess my point is this:

If, say, a 60 minute addition is almost all bittering, and a sub 180 degree or later addition is pretty much all flavor/aroma. In between is a mix of bittering and flavor/aroma. Why not do all your bittering in one early addition and all your flavor/aroma during whirlpool and/or dry hop?

 

[Denny]

I tend to do FWH, 60, 3, maybe whirlpool and dry hop. Works for me. One of my best known recipes uses a 30 minute addition, which I likely wouldn't do if I was writing the recipe today. But I love the way the beer turns out, so I'm not gonna change it.

 

[tootal]

60 minutes will fully isomerize the hops to give you the maximum bitterness from said hop.

20 - 30 minute hops give you hop flavor and I've seen graphs that point at 20 minutes being optimum.

5 minutes to flameout is for aroma along with dry hopping.

This is for a pale ale or pilsner styles. In our stouts we use only 60 minutes.

In IPA's we FWH along with the above.

So beer styles have different expectations and we hop accordingly.

HOWEVER, if you're happy then that's all that matters!

 

[roadkizzle]

I guess my point is this:

If, say, a 60 minute addition is almost all bittering, and a sub 180 degree or later addition is pretty much all flavor/aroma. In between is a mix of bittering and flavor/aroma. Why not do all your bittering in one early addition and all your flavor/aroma during whirlpool and/or dry hop?

You definitely get a different flavor boiling the hops than you do dry hopping. There are conversions of the oils other than just the isomerization of the alpha acids that happen at the high temperatures.

That's why I normally use boil additions for my hops. But it is a balancing act because the flavor/aroma components are volatile and will be boiled off before too long. I know alpha acids are isomerized at 170F so if you hold a whirlpool at that temperature then there will be some isomerization of oils.

I normally do a early bittering addition (either FWH or 60 minutes) and I don't expect to get much if any flavor from those.

Then a 20-30 minute addition to get some more of the flavors and then a 5-10 minute addition which will retain a bunch of the aromas but still keep the heat conversions.

I rarely do dry-hopping. I've only made 2 IPA's in the 8 or so years I've been brewing. I prefer balanced beers and hops with more complex flavors not just the fruity ones.

It all depends on what you want to drink though.
If you want the modern hop focused beers then the modern no-boil hopping method works well.
If you enjoy the traditional beer styles then the boil hopping will be more of what you want.

 

[z-bob]

I generally use 1 or 2 hop varieties; 1.5 ounces for a 4 gallon recipe.

Half to 1 oz of something nice at 5 or 10 minutes. And a half to 1 oz (maybe the same hop, maybe something else) at 30 to 60 minutes for bitterness.

For dark beers, all the hops usually go in at 60 minutes.

I haven't started experimenting with FWH or dry-hopping yet. Too many other things to master. And I have several pounds of hops in the freezer that I bought thinking I'd be using them 5 or 6 ounces at a time.

 

[motosapiens]

I guess my point is this:

If, say, a 60 minute addition is almost all bittering, and a sub 180 degree or later addition is pretty much all flavor/aroma. In between is a mix of bittering and flavor/aroma. Why not do all your bittering in one early addition and all your flavor/aroma during whirlpool and/or dry hop?

I think that is a very reasonable question, and I think the only way to resolve it is to do an exbeeriment or two. As denny alludes, one reason people stick with mid-boil hop additions is they've already fine-tuned a recipe and don't want to go back into development mode for a few batches.

I personally would be very curious to find out if there was some kind of magical flavor that 30 or 15 minute hop additions provided that could not be duplicated with the correct amount of fwh and whirlpool/hopstand additions. It would certainly give me more time to walk the dogs during the boil.

 

[sven945]

Someone must have done an experiment with adding hops at different times in the boil. Say you could have a basic wort with an amount added for minimal bittering at the start, then ferment different batches with a fixed hop addition at 30 minutes, then another batch added at 25 minutes, all the way up to flame out. So you could have a vague idea how additions at different stages differ.

It'd be a complete ballache to do though. I remember seeing a reddit post where someone tried to brew just a pint. That'd probably be the scale that you'd need for this sort of thing.

 

[brewcat]

Hops have different aromas & flavors where you may not want them. Timing can keep a hop flavor subtle while keeping the aroma non-existent.

It really depends what you're trying to do/style you're trying to brew. I find adding at certain times can bring a complexity to a recipe.

Just last week I did a lager with additions at 60, 15, 10, 5 and flameout. Basically trying to get the hop flavor and IBU both right. The flameout addition is specific to the aroma. The other hops were about flavor and bittering.

With that said, I try to keep hop schedules (and recipes) simple.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

You definitely get a different flavor boiling the hops than you do dry hopping. There are conversions of the oils other than just the isomerization of the alpha acids that happen at the high temperatures.

That's why I normally use boil additions for my hops. But it is a balancing act because the flavor/aroma components are volatile and will be boiled off before too long. I know alpha acids are isomerized at 170F so if you hold a whirlpool at that temperature then there will be some isomerization of oils.

I normally do a early bittering addition (either FWH or 60 minutes) and I don't expect to get much if any flavor from those.

Then a 20-30 minute addition to get some more of the flavors and then a 5-10 minute addition which will retain a bunch of the aromas but still keep the heat conversions.

I rarely do dry-hopping. I've only made 2 IPA's in the 8 or so years I've been brewing. I prefer balanced beers and hops with more complex flavors not just the fruity ones.

It all depends on what you want to drink though.
If you want the modern hop focused beers then the modern no-boil hopping method works well.
If you enjoy the traditional beer styles then the boil hopping will be more of what you want.

I feel like you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that early boil additions are traditionally considered to primarily add bitterness. Mid additions are a blend of bitterness and flavor with the time added affecting how much bitterness and how much flavor. Dry hopping is primarily flavor.

Let's look at a hypothetical: Let's say you add hops with 10 minutes left. It'll add a mix of bitterness and flavor. Say 8 ibu's and x amount of flavor. Instead of that addition, add a smaller amount at the beginning of the boil (or fwh) that provides 8 ibu's and a smaller amount at whirlpool that yields the same amount of flavor.

Unless a mid time addition adds something magic you can't get from an early bittering addition or a flavor addition at the end, why have that addition in the middle.

Also, it's not about laziness or not wanting to deal with it, I just don't understand what it brings to the table that I can't get elsewhere.

I was talking with a pro brewer the other day about the science/art of brewing. My impression is that there's a lot we don't know yet, so we have a strange mix of science and folklore. There are so many variables and the time and cost of multiple batches that truly follow scientific principles of experimentation are problematic.

I'm just looking for some explanation of what a mid or late boil addition brings that could be obtained by a mix of an early boil addition and post boil addition of appropriate quantity.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I think that is a very reasonable question, and I think the only way to resolve it is to do an exbeeriment or two. As denny alludes, one reason people stick with mid-boil hop additions is they've already fine-tuned a recipe and don't want to go back into development mode for a few batches.

I personally would be very curious to find out if there was some kind of magical flavor that 30 or 15 minute hop additions provided that could not be duplicated with the correct amount of fwh and whirlpool/hopstand additions. It would certainly give me more time to walk the dogs during the boil.

I like the idea of an exbeeriment. Derive two recipes that generate the same IBU and, (and this is the hard part) an expected same amount of flavor/aroma. One uses only full boil and post boil additions, the other uses only mid-late boil additions.

The trick is figuring out how to gauge equivalent aroma/flavor quantities with mid/late additions vs post boil additions.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'm the odd man out on the topic.
I started doing 60 minute, flameout and 170 additions. I didn't like the result. To me I got a vegal taste an didn't think the flavor was great.

I went back to conventional 60, mid boil additions. To me it taste more an IPA should

 

[dyqik]

You might flavor hop with one hop variety, and aroma hop with another. That will bring different things to the table than aroma hopping with both, or flavor hopping with both. The flavor compounds produced by boiling hops for a short time are different to the aroma compounds produced by whirlpooling or dry hopping. I suspect this is probably most apparent when mixing old world hop varieties, in smaller quantities. I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to say NEIPA, where you are overwhelmed by the dry hop.

As an example, in English bitters, it's fairly common to flavor hop with fuggles at around 15 minutes, then flameout or whirlpool with goldings, before dry hopping with goldings or both. That brings more fuggles flavor, but more goldings aroma. It's about making the balance you want with the different hop varieties. Nowadays you can probably also achieve that for US styles with hop selection, but I'm not sure it's the same if you limit yourself to say English hop varieties.

 

[KIC-8462852]

In my last brews, I used a mix of First Wort Hopping, which isn't as much of a hassle as I'd feared, and late additions: at flameout, and when it starts cooling down.
Of course I then can't help but sprinkle pinches of hops in at different times during the boil, but not before the -20 minute mark, for a boil time of 40 minutes.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to taste any of those brews yet so I can't speak to the gustatory validity of this technique.

 

[Joe_K]

I tend to view hopping very simply: I typically FWH for whatever bittering I want, then possibly whirlpool additions at 170 and dry hop. I've been extremely happy with the results of my recipes.



I just don't see the point in 30 min, 15 min, 5 min type additions. Part does what the full boil addition does, part does what the whirlpool addition does...why not just get those aspects from those steps respectively?



What am I missing here? I feel like there must be more to it since so many recipes call for a multitude of intermediate boiling and flameout additions.

Exactly what I do. I don't know if it's better or worse but it works for me.

 

[logdrum]

I like FWH for several of my recipes, but I've found if I skip the 60 min bittering charge, the resultant beer fades far too quickly. So for a typical IPA it's FWH, 60min, flame out, whirlpool & double dry hop.

 

[Denny]

I like FWH for several of my recipes, but I've found if I skip the 60 min bittering charge, the resultant beer fades far too quickly. So for a typical IPA it's FWH, 60min, flame out, whirlpool & double dry hop.

AbsolutelyI don't find FWH to be a substitute for a bittering addition.

 

[ZmannR2]

What's FWH? The acronyms in homebrewing is ridiculous.

 

[RustyHorn]

What's FWH? The acronyms in homebrewing is ridiculous.

First Wort Hop - you add the hops to the wort before it gets up to boiling temperature.

 

[GRBC]

If only there was a group that did these so called exbeeriments....like this?

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/02/hop-stand-vs-20-minute-boil-addition-exbeeriment-results/

 

[hobomoto]

My theory:

Hops have a lot of fricken compounds in them. Some are more volatile than others. When you add a hop mid boil, you are going to volatilize the most sensitive compounds but leave behind others thus getting a different profile of compounds (i.e.: flavor profile) from that hop than if you were to add it at a 170 degree hop stand (which should retain more delicate compounds).

 

[hobomoto]

So I believe a mid-boil addition can bring something unique to the table.... to summarize my thought from above.

 

[GRBC]

Something unique, maybe. Unique flavor, apparently not...

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

 

[imasickboy]

I feel like you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that early boil additions are traditionally considered to primarily add bitterness. Mid additions are a blend of bitterness and flavor with the time added affecting how much bitterness and how much flavor. Dry hopping is primarily flavor.

Let's look at a hypothetical: Let's say you add hops with 10 minutes left. It'll add a mix of bitterness and flavor. Say 8 ibu's and x amount of flavor. Instead of that addition, add a smaller amount at the beginning of the boil (or fwh) that provides 8 ibu's and a smaller amount at whirlpool that yields the same amount of flavor.

Unless a mid time addition adds something magic you can't get from an early bittering addition or a flavor addition at the end, why have that addition in the middle.

Also, it's not about laziness or not wanting to deal with it, I just don't understand what it brings to the table that I can't get elsewhere.

I was talking with a pro brewer the other day about the science/art of brewing. My impression is that there's a lot we don't know yet, so we have a strange mix of science and folklore. There are so many variables and the time and cost of multiple batches that truly follow scientific principles of experimentation are problematic.

I'm just looking for some explanation of what a mid or late boil addition brings that could be obtained by a mix of an early boil addition and post boil addition of appropriate quantity.

You are probably not missing anything. The reason that we use flavor and aroma additions in the boil is because that was the way it's always been done. Hop stands likely had never been done 50 years ago.

Is the way you hop comparable method to the traditional method of hopping? Probably. The results are similar, with the main difference being the length of your brewday, provided you're not going to extremes.

 

[signpost]

I'm just looking for some explanation of what a mid or late boil addition brings that could be obtained by a mix of an early boil addition and post boil addition of appropriate quantity.

The short answer is that it produces different flavors, or at the very least, a different balance of flavors. There are more components than simply bitterness and flavor/aroma.

What are the different flavors? We don't know for sure. Tyre Brulosophy exbeeriments are great, but really only a limited scientific approach. A true scientific study of this topic would require countless batches of beer with quantifiable measures of all of the various flavor and aroma compounds.

If you think mid-boil additions don't add anything different, then it is likely that you just aren't noticing the flavors, rather than the flavors not being there.

If you like the results you get from only FWH + whirlpool, great. If you like more complex mid-boil additions, great. Just don't say somebody else's way is wrong, because if you think something is pointless, you are probably just missing the point.

Almost never are things just done one way simply because that's how it's always been done. Usually, it's always been done that way for a good reason.

 

[Norselord]

The length of time hops spend in boiling conditions determines two things:
1) degree of isomerization
2) which volatile organic compounds (flavor and aroma) are boiled off

 

[Murphys_Law]

i made my ESB and usually have a .5 oz EKG addition ea at 15 and 10 but after reading this I tossed the whole oz in at 10 (along with a small 5 min Fuggle addition).

Looking forward to seeing how it differs from past brews.

 

[Denny]

If only there was a group that did these so called exbeeriments....like this?

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/02/hop-stand-vs-20-minute-boil-addition-exbeeriment-results/

If only there was someone who did more than a single trial....https://www.experimentalbrew.com/ex...-steeping-lower-temperature-improve-final-hop

 

[Stillraining]

The length of time hops spend in boiling conditions determines two things:
1) degree of isomerization
2) which volatile organic compounds (flavor and aroma) are boiled off

Exactly:

At 40 min all floral is boiled off
At 35 min all grapefruit
at 30 all mango
at 25 all papaya
at 20 all passion fruit
at 15 all orange
at 10 all Tangerine
at 5 all Banana

There OP I fixed if for you......:fro:

I have know Idea but the above represents something I'm sure..but its far from that simple..every hop is going to release its goodness at a different rate and time. And every years hop harvest or region the same hop was grown in will differ from one another. One or two experiments will hardly scratch the surface I'm afraid. But that's what makes this a great hobby..If it was pure science or paint by numbers, Id find something else to do. The Art of making good beer is what its all about. Reading about painting will not make a good artist out of you. A better artist perhaps.

In regards to bitter only, I seem to get harsher bitter out of longer boils then shorter ones for the same IBU target..maybe its in my head maybe not.

I'm drinking my Mocha Brown right now and its first bittering is at 30 seems mellower then the same beer and same IBU target at 60...just saying

 

[dyqik]

You are probably not missing anything. The reason that we use flavor and aroma additions in the boil is because that was the way it's always been done. Hop stands likely had never been done 50 years ago.

The use of hopbacks as a method of exposing hops to still warm or to cooled wort after boiling has been common in English beers for at least a century. Hop stands are a method of replicating something fairly close to that on the homebrew scale, although slightly different in detail. Flavor additions are also used in the same breweries. So no, hop stands are not really that new.

 

[dyqik]

The length of time hops spend in boiling conditions determines two things:
1) degree of isomerization
2) which volatile organic compounds (flavor and aroma) are boiled off

And it also affects the degree of conversion of some compounds into others, and the degree to which those intermediate compounds convert to other compounds. There may be some intermediate compounds that have a significant concentration after ten minutes boiling, but which are destroyed again after an hour boiling.

 

[Hanglow]

The use of hopbacks as a method of exposing hops to still warm or to cooled wort after boiling has been common in English beers for at least a century. Hop stands are a method of replicating something fairly close to that on the homebrew scale, although slightly different in detail. Flavor additions are also used in the same breweries. So no, hop stands are not really that new.

I'm sure Graham Wheeler mentioned that in some of his recipes the 10/15min addition was to replicate hopback and/or whirlpool hopping as it takes commercial breweries so much longer to cool their wort down than homebrewers. So he thought that might give a homebrew equivalent. Some coppers are pressurised to reduce energy costs and time, so often it wasn't really practical to add hops between the start of the boil and the end, so that's another reason the flavour hops were added in the hopback

First wort hopping is also something that's been practised for centuries, the process was mentioned in the Complete English Brewer which came out towards the end of the 18th century

 

[dyqik]

I'm sure Graham Wheeler mentioned that in some of his recipes the 10/15min addition was to replicate hopback and/or whirlpool hopping as it takes commercial breweries so much longer to cool their wort down than homebrewers. So he thought that might give a homebrew equivalent. Some coppers are pressurised to reduce energy costs and time, so often it wasn't really practical to add hops between the start of the boil and the end, so that's another reason the flavour hops were added in the hopback.

That's probably true for some breweries, but others use open kettles. There the wort temperature will be somewhat below boiling, and the exposure time to heat for the oils extracted from the hops will be very short (just the time it takes for wort to get from the hopback and though the cooler).

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The short answer is that it produces different flavors, or at the very least, a different balance of flavors. There are more components than simply bitterness and flavor/aroma.

What are the different flavors? We don't know for sure. Tyre Brulosophy exbeeriments are great, but really only a limited scientific approach. A true scientific study of this topic would require countless batches of beer with quantifiable measures of all of the various flavor and aroma compounds.

If you think mid-boil additions don't add anything different, then it is likely that you just aren't noticing the flavors, rather than the flavors not being there.

If you like the results you get from only FWH + whirlpool, great. If you like more complex mid-boil additions, great. Just don't say somebody else's way is wrong, because if you think something is pointless, you are probably just missing the point.

Almost never are things just done one way simply because that's how it's always been done. Usually, it's always been done that way for a good reason.

I don't believe I've said anyone else is wrong. What I asked was where I'm wrong.

 

[signpost]

I don't believe I've said anyone else is wrong. What I asked was where I'm wrong.

I'm sorry, I haven't been that active on here lately. I forgot that people take everything personally instead of thinking about the content of posts.