Altbier - seeking input

[FranklinsBeerTower]

Hi all, looking to brew my first altbier in the near future. I cobbled together the below recipe, which appears to be pretty much down the middle of the fairway based on my research into others' recipes. I'm really all over the place on the yeast selection - I keep waffling back and forth between 1007, Lallemand Koln Kolsch, or going non-traditional with a clean US-05 for ease. Grateful for any input before I order ingredients in the next few weeks. Thanks!

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Altbier
Boil Time: 75 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.00 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.039
Efficiency: 73% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.13%
IBU (tinseth): 33.94
SRM (morey): 14.35

FERMENTABLES:
5.5 lb - Barke Pilsner Malt (52.7%)
3 lb - Munich Type I (28.7%)
1 lb - Munich Type II (Dark) (9.6%)
0.75 lb - Caramunich Type 2 (7.2%)
3 oz - Carafa II (1.8%)

HOPS:
0.6 oz - Hallertauer Magnum, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 29.79
0.75 oz - Spalter, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 4.15

YEAST:
Lallemand - LALBREW® KÖLN KÖLSCH KOLSCH STYLE ALE YEAST
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 59 - 72 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Ca2: 80
Mg2: 4
Na: 20
Cl: 60
SO4: 60
HCO3: 0

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Start Temp: 164 F, Target Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 3.89 gal
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb
Starting Grain Temp: 65 °F

 

[rmr9]

I think it’s looking pretty good! I only have a couple suggestions based on my own experiences.

For yeast I would go with 1007 (or Imperial’s Kaiser), that strain has worked well for me in the past. With that I suggest a big yeast pitch since you want this nice and clean. Ferment 55-58 degrees as well.

For malt bill: I would drop the caramunich down to .25lbs if not eliminate it altogether. One of my altbiers turned out more like a brown ale which I think is because I used a fair bit of caramunich iii in mine. Make up the loss of caramunich with Munich dark.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[FranklinsBeerTower]

I think it’s looking pretty good! I only have a couple suggestions based on my own experiences.

For yeast I would go with 1007 (or Imperial’s Kaiser), that strain has worked well for me in the past. With that I suggest a big yeast pitch since you want this nice and clean. Ferment 55-58 degrees as well.

For malt bill: I would drop the caramunich down to .25lbs if not eliminate it altogether. One of my altbiers turned out more like a brown ale which I think is because I used a fair bit of caramunich iii in mine. Make up the loss of caramunich with Munich dark.

Just my 2 cents!

Thanks rmr9! That's an easy sell for me, I love Munich II.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think it’s looking pretty good! I only have a couple suggestions based on my own experiences.

For yeast I would go with 1007 (or Imperial’s Kaiser), that strain has worked well for me in the past. With that I suggest a big yeast pitch since you want this nice and clean. Ferment 55-58 degrees as well.

For malt bill: I would drop the caramunich down to .25lbs if not eliminate it altogether. One of my altbiers turned out more like a brown ale which I think is because I used a fair bit of caramunich iii in mine. Make up the loss of caramunich with Munich dark.

Just my 2 cents!

My thoughts exactly, I was going to say exactly the same things.

Koln yeast is good if you can get it, but I believe it's been discontinued. For altbier my thoughts always immediately gravitate towards 1007 which is an outstanding yeast for this style or for any beer where you want it "clean" -- this is the cleanest of all ale strains. US-05 is NOT clean, nowhere near as clean as 1007.

 

[Dgallo]

Looks pretty good to me. I would personally drop the caramunich to .25 or eliminate it all together. You don’t want it too malty. I also really like WL036. In my opinion it gives a more authentic character in my opinion. I’ve posted this in some thread earlier this week but to give you color reference, this is my altbeir at 16 SRM. I like the color but it’s a touch dark. I’m going to drop it to 14.5-15SRM next batch

 

[quantumguy]

Kal's Electric Brewery site has a good altbier recipe that I've brewed a couple of times (actually drinking through a keg of one now).
See: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/dusseldorf-altbier#Recipe

I think if I brewed it again though, I would cut the aromatic malt down by maybe half.

 

[rmr9]

Looks pretty good to me. I would personally drop the caramunich to .25 or eliminate it all together. You don’t want it too malty. I also really like WL036. In my opinion it gives a more authentic character in my opinion. I’ve posted this in some thread earlier this week but to give you color reference, this is my altbeir at 16 SRM. I like the color but it’s a touch dark. I’m going to drop it to 14.5-15SRM next batch View attachment 880814

Great looking beer! I’ve never tried WL036, may have to consider that when I make it back around to brewing another alt. I think altbiers are a far too often overlooked style.

 

[FranklinsBeerTower]

Thanks all, appreciate the input! Think I'm going to eliminate the caramunich and up the munich 2 as suggested. Something like this for an OG of 1.052. Also think I'll use the 1007. Cheers!

5.5 lb - Barke Pilsner Malt (51.5%)
3 lb - Munich Type I (28.1%)
2 lb - Munich Type II (Dark) (18.7%)
3 oz - Carafa III - (late mash tun addition) (1.8%)

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks all, appreciate the input! Think I'm going to eliminate the caramunich and up the munich 2 as suggested. Something like this for an OG of 1.052. Also think I'll use the 1007. Cheers!

5.5 lb - Barke Pilsner Malt (51.5%)
3 lb - Munich Type I (28.1%)
2 lb - Munich Type II (Dark) (18.7%)
3 oz - Carafa III - (late mash tun addition) (1.8%)

The last alt I've had was here in Germany and it was not malty at all. It was basically almost like a dry Pilsener with a hint of yeast derived fruityness.

I like that you dropped the crystal completely. I'd reduce the Munich to 10% now and call it a beer. You'd would be also fine with only base malt and carafa. The late mash tun addition makes it a bit hard to predict the colour but you can get there in an iterative process when you brew this multiple times.

 

[DuncB]

Love the 1007 yeast, used it for a few other styles as well.
Touch of rye can add a different dimension.

 

[Dgallo]

Love the 1007 yeast, used it for a few other styles as well.
Touch of rye can add a different dimension.

Rye in an alt? In not exactly a style purest but idk how the slight peppery spice would work. Probably would cause someone to adjust the ibus and raise the FG to balance

 

[dmtaylor]

Rye in an alt? In not exactly a style purest but idk how the slight peppery spice would work. Probably would cause someone to adjust the ibus and raise the FG to balance

Rye is not actually peppery or spicy. Especially in the small amounts probably being suggested here. Bready and earthy I would say.

 

[Dgallo]

Rye is not actually peppery or spicy. Especially in the small amounts probably being suggested here. Bready and earthy I would say.

I always perceive it as so. Even at like 5%. I also get a perceived dryness from it as well

 

[dmtaylor]

I always perceive it as so. Even at like 5%. I also get a perceived dryness from it as well

Perhaps there are different characteristics from different manufacturers. None of the rye I have tried is like this. And I know I'm definitely not the only one in this boat saying this.

 

[Dgallo]

Perhaps there are different characteristics from different manufacturers. None of the rye I have tried is like this. And I know I'm definitely not the only one in this boat saying this.

Could also just be individual taste thresholds. I read somewhere that nationality and things like being a smoker can greatly raise folks threshold to certain compounds

 

[Steveruch]

Could also just be individual taste thresholds. I read somewhere that nationality and things like being a smoker can greatly raise folks threshold to certain compounds

I quit smoking 40 years ago. Shortly after quitting I noticed the Little Debbie snack cakes that I had with lunch were tasting off. It turned out that my tastebuds were coming back to life and Little Debbie's cheapness could no longer compensate for the lousy taste and I had to spring for Hostess.

 

[passedpawn]

Definitely want to err on the side of caution with an altbier. There isn't much going on in there (the "sticke" Christmas version is higher abv and does have a little more body and malt).

I have brewed a few. If you peruse the following thread, I posted the base recipe straight from the brewer in Dusseldorf. I don't think I followed that, but gather from it what you will: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/dusseldorf-altbier-brewery-visit-fuchschen-pics-youtube.282538/

Fuchschen uses about 90% pilsner, 2% carafa, some accidulated malt, and some other minute grain additions that I didn't catch. They do a single 60 minute hop addition of Tradition. They use both pellet and hop extract. No late hop additions. This beer should be on the bitter side of balanced - if your brewing software has a "bitterness ratio", you want it under 0.500. That bitterness ratio compares the sugars in your wort and the hop IBUS. German beers are always around 0.500 - not sweet and not bitter.

 

[passedpawn]

Rye is absolutely not peppery in any way. That's an old wive's tale started because the caraway seed in rye bread does have the peppery character. I've a bunch of rye beers and there was none of that (though the resulting stuck sparge can be peppery in a way lol). Rye adds a lot of body/mouthfeel to the beer.

 

[DuncB]

Rye is absolutely not peppery in any way. That's an old wive's tale started because the caraway seed in rye bread does have the peppery character. I've a bunch of rye beers and there was none of that (though the resulting stuck sparge can be peppery in a way lol). Rye adds a lot of body/mouthfeel to the beer.

Thanks for your vote re Rye.

My first rye use was in an imperial stout and I managed to crush the rye to the perfect size to swell and block every hole in the base of my malt pipe. Stuck mash and sparge. Nightmare.
Lesson learnt crush much finer and this with 5ml of glucanase no problems at all.

Very helpful / great website. I brewed the Roggenbier and used WLP 530 came out great.

https://www.brewingnordic.com/new-nordic-beer/brewing-with-rye/

 

[Dgallo]

Rye is absolutely not peppery in any way. That's an old wive's tale started because the caraway seed in rye bread does have the peppery character. I've a bunch of rye beers and there was none of that (though the resulting stuck sparge can be peppery in a way lol). Rye adds a lot of body/mouthfeel to the beer.

I will say, there are many maltsters that advertise their rye as spicy. With that flavor profile being so polarizing for folks, seems like it would be very counterintuitive for a maltsters to make that claim if they didn’t believe their malt could be perceived as spicy by at least some margin of people.

 

[Miraculix]

I will say, there are many maltsters that advertise their rye as spicy. With that flavor profile being so polarizing for folks, seems like it would be very counterintuitive for a maltsters to make that claim if they didn’t believe their malt could be perceived as spicy by at least some margin of people. View attachment 881056
View attachment 881055View attachment 881054

I see the trend that people selling stuff tend to describe it the way which sells the most product. This means mainly to fulfill expectations with their descriptions.

Rye tastes neither peppery nor spicy I'm afraid. I did the taste testing and there is no spice. There is a little bit of specific flavour which comes only really through in higher percentages, same as wheat has it's distinctive flavour and barley also. But it is not spicy and it is subtle.

 

[dmtaylor]

Heh... Briess also says Carapils is great for body and head retention... but we digress.

 

[Dgallo]

I see the trend that people selling stuff tend to describe it the way which sells the most product. This means mainly to fulfill expectations with their descriptions.

Rye tastes neither peppery nor spicy I'm afraid. I did the taste testing and there is no spice. There is a little bit of specific flavour which comes only really through in higher percentages, same as wheat has it's distinctive flavour and barley also. But it is not spicy and it is subtle.

Well from a marketing standpoint, they would sell far more rye if it wasn’t marketed as spicy. rye is an amazing cover crop that puts nitrogen back in the soil and remains alive and can be grown in winter months. Farmers would love more brewers to brew with rye so that they could actually benefit from growing it to replenish their fields by selling the grain at market. By being able to get rid of the term spicy in their flavor descriptions would certainly sell more rye. Would greatly help the environment as well, keeping fields full in another season will keep erosion down, absorb vast amount of carbon and lower the amount of synthetic nitrogen being used

I have brewed with the rye a fair amount of times and taste what I would describe as a faint hop burn character, which in my opinion does have a peppery or spicy bitter character. Taste is subjective, people have different sensory thresholds, so I’ll take back my generalization that is finite spicy for all, but I do certainly get a character like that in the after taste.

Anyway, no more hijacking this thread for rye talk from me. Until our next civil discussion gents! Lol

 

[rmr9]

I think using a dark roasted rye for color instead or 2-4% Cararye (if you don’t ditch the caramunich) could be interesting in an alt if not totally to style.

I picked up a pound of ~500 lov roasted rye that I’m subbing in place of Carafa in some upcoming batches.

 

[mabrungard]

Love the 1007 yeast, used it for a few other styles as well.
Touch of rye can add a different dimension.

I'm in preparations for brewing an Alt for a fall festival, so this subject is salient.

I've long hated 1007 yeast for an odd flavor that I detect. This has manifested in both homebrew and commercial brews that I've tasted in the last 2 and a half decades.

In my preparations, I did send a note to Denny Conn and Drew Beecham since I sat on the AHA board with them and have collaborated with them many times. One of Denny's strong recommendations was to use 1007. I protested and he pointed out that I needed to ferment at 55F. It being an ale yeast, I had never tried fermenting it that low. He said its the way to go. Given Alt is a 'hybrid' style, I suppose that fermenting at a near lager temperature makes sense. That will be the direction I go.

The other thing that I found in reviewing the Gold medal Alt recipes on the AHA website for members, is that Jamil's Alt recipe seems to be very present in many of the recent winners. I don't doubt that it should produce a decent version of an Alt. I'll be targeting a bittering in the low 40 range, use a Tett finishing hop, and including a small dose of flaked wheat in the grist to boost head production and longevity.

 

[DuncB]

I'm in preparations for brewing an Alt for a fall festival, so this subject is salient.

I've long hated 1007 yeast for an odd flavor that I detect. This has manifested in both homebrew and commercial brews that I've tasted in the last 2 and a half decades.

In my preparations, I did send a note to Denny Conn and Drew Beecham since I sat on the AHA board with them and have collaborated with them many times. One of Denny's strong recommendations was to use 1007. I protested and he pointed out that I needed to ferment at 55F. It being an ale yeast, I had never tried fermenting it that low. He said its the way to go. Given Alt is a 'hybrid' style, I suppose that fermenting at a near lager temperature makes sense. That will be the direction I go.

The other thing that I found in reviewing the Gold medal Alt recipes on the AHA website for members, is that Jamil's Alt recipe seems to be very present in many of the recent winners. I don't doubt that it should produce a decent version of an Alt. I'll be targeting a bittering in the low 40 range, use a Tett finishing hop, and including a small dose of flaked wheat in the grist to boost head production and longevity.

Given that you are on the hook Martin, what water are you going for?

I do ferment mine cool, Josh Weikert recommends that as well in his make your best altbier article and the other recipes he's posted.
I also some 1007 harvested barm as a yeast top up to my Thomas Hardys ale clone in secondary. The Ron Pattinson recipe suggests the brewery added fresh yeast to barrels a few times during the 3 month secondary prior to bottling. It tolerated the high alcohol and cool ale temps well.

 

[Beekeeper]

I keep waffling between ...Lallemand Koln Kolsch, ...

Where can you still find Lallemand Koln Kolsch?

 

[mabrungard]

Dusseldorf is on the Rhine, as is Koln. I'll be using a Koln profile. It has modest concentrations of sulfate and chloride that will work in Alt.

 

[AzOr]

I quit smoking 40 years ago. Shortly after quitting I noticed the Little Debbie snack cakes that I had with lunch were tasting off. It turned out that my tastebuds were coming back to life and Little Debbie's cheapness could no longer compensate for the lousy taste and I had to spring for Hostess.

How dare you speak ill of Mrs Debbie.

 

[FranklinsBeerTower]

Where can you still find Lallemand Koln Kolsch?

Turn out you can't! I had been reviewing old recipes that used Lallemand Kolsch without realizing it had been discontinued. 1007 it is!

 

[WesBrew]

An Alt sounds good. I used WLP036 Dusseldorf a few years back and had a good deal of caramunich3 in it. Was on the malty end for the style but it was good and won a gold in category. I'm liking my beers on the drier side these days, I might try the W1007 and reduce the caramunich and give it a go.